Leadership Trust, Faith, and Failure: A Master Class with Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell, and Patrick Lencioni

[Music] Three questions that followers ask of their leaders. First question is, do you

like me? Number two, can you help me? And the last one is the deepest of all leadership. Don't affirm somebody in

something that's not good for them. Anticipate people's objections. But you have to ask. You can't say, "I know what

you're thinking." But you can go, "Hey, if I were you, I might be worried about this or this or this. Is there anything

else I'm missing?" That's a vulnerable thing. That's gold. There are folks that are wounded and they're not going to

trust no matter what happens. So, the best thing you can do there is don't hire them. Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell,

Patrick Blion. For the first time, three of the most trusted voices in leadership meet for a conversation you won't hear

anywhere else. It's a master class on building trust, leading with clarity, and multiplying your impact. I've never

had a person tell me the most important lesson I ever learned in life that didn't have failure in it. You can go

from failure to success, but you can't go from excuses to success. You can't do it.

>> The CEO of a company got caught on camera at a concert with a woman that wasn't his wife. And everybody thinks

it's kind of funny cuz they commented on it and it's it's all over the internet. I feel so bad for that man because

we recently did uh the largest study at Ramsey Solutions of net worth millionaires over 10,000. And one of the

really interesting pieces of data that jumped out, um, millionaires who identified as loving their work, they

genuinely loved the work they did, report a 58% higher net worth than those that didn't. I wanted you all to comment

on that, why you think that data bears out that way. It's hard to be good at something that you hate.

>> You're right, Dave. No one ever quit doing something they're good at. You quit what you're bad at.

>> Yeah. >> So, I mean, that's where the pass the passion is in loving your work. Yeah.

>> And the passion is what makes the work great. >> An indifferent person doesn't do much as

far as changing people's lives or anything else. It's it's got to be somebody that really cares. And what's

interesting, we don't teach that specifically in high schools and colleges. It's just go get a degree so

you can get a good job. And so many people wonder why they can't break through and become wealthy.

>> Well, there's a part of it that's taught. I mean, what happens is passion increases your creativity, right?

>> Because you lean in. You're practicing. You're working. You you you hone your craft.

>> Like all of us do work on stage for decades. >> And thank God we're much better now than

when we started. We've honed it over the years, you know. >> Couldn't be worse.

>> And so, yeah. And so, there's some some of it in the old days sucked bad. But yeah, but the but we've worked on that

because we all three enjoy the interaction with the live audience. >> Correct.

>> And uh so that the creativity increases with the passion. But what is taught loosely in the last couple of

generations is follow your passion. And our friend Mike Row just really gets ticked off about that because it doesn't

it doesn't include calluses. >> Well, and calluses are fine when you're doing what you you know, everybody's

gets calluses. You want to get calluses doing the thing that you like. It doesn't feel like a punishment. It feels

like a a trophy, you know. >> True. >> You know, I when I was a kid, I really

early in my life, thank God for this, I remember I found a book called Do what you love and the money will follow. Now,

I wasn't raised that way. My mom and dad didn't go to college and so it was just all about you get benefits and you make

enough money to buy a house. But I remember when I went out and started my own company, my dad, God rest his soul,

said, "Ah, but Pat, you're you're an executive and you you have benefits and don't do this." And I was like, "Dad, I

got to do what I love." Later on, he was like, "Yeah, that was the right thing, but we have to teach." I had a a kid

come to me the other day who's a freshman in college, and he goes, "I want to go into full-time ministry when

I get out of school, but I want to get a college degree in something that'll help me in that, and maybe that if I need to

work, cuz St. Paul had to make tents in order to do that." And he and I said, 'What are you studying? He said,

'Finance. And I looked at his MyersBriggs and his Working Genius and everything else. I was like, "You're

going to hate that." He goes, "Yeah, I'm not interested in it." I said, "Don't do that."

>> Right. >> He changed his major. >> Yeah.

>> Well, the flip side of this is John was talking about talent. You were talking about talent, doing things that you're

good at. Um, when you hear that phrase, follow your passion, a lot of people miss that and they'll go for something

that they love, but they have no talent in it at all. >> 100%. Let me be contrarian here because

I think because we've all heard, you know, do what you love and it's going to be everything's going to be wonderful.

I don't think that's true. I think it's a little overrated really. Uh I mean, I love I'm passionate about golf, but I

have a problem. In fact, the problem showed up the other day when a guy looked at me, he said, "You only have

one problem with your golf game." I kind of got excited. I thought, "What? Anybody can handle one." I said, "What

is it?" And he said, "Well, you're too close to your ball after you hit it." You know, well, crap. I'm not going

that's not going to help me. You know what I'm saying? You You're too close. Well, but am I passionate about it? Do I

love it? Of course, I love it. But I'm not any good at it. And I tell people, if you love something you're not good

at, don't make it a career, >> right? >> Make it a hobby. In fact, you can

destroy the love of a hobby by trying to make it a career. I don't when when people say do what you love I think it

comes down to micro like what kind of work in the moment do you enjoy talking to people there's a you could apply that

in a whole it's not about cuz I talk to young really young kids and I say what do you want to do and they're like I

want to make video games it's like no you want to play video games and get paid for it so I totally agree it's not

what hobby do you love it's like what kind of stuff do you like to do Guadara your friend loves cooking

well he made a career out of it. But that's not for everybody. Well, let's talk about leadership for a second

because the natural progression certainly in the American workplace is you get promoted two maybe three times

and then what happens is they promote you into some type of a management leadership role and you don't really

want it. You're not committed to leading people. You don't enjoy it. Yet, you've they've got this pressure to say yes to

the promotion. Let's talk to leaders who could be honest with themselves and go, "I don't enjoy this." What do you say to

them? >> I give him an A for honesty. >> Me, too.

>> It's It's like taking the best salesman on the lot, making him a manager of sales,

>> right? >> And all of a sudden, you find out that he doesn't manage well. He just sells

well. >> And you lost your best salesperson. >> You lost your best salesperson and

you're paying them a lot more than you need to be paying them for that whole process. I've always said,

let the growth of what you're in determine what your what your benefits are going to be and your blessings are

going to be. And sometimes a promotion is really not a promotion at all if it takes you out of your gift zone. For

sure. Well, the mistake we make in business is that we confuse the fact that they're good at sales.

>> Yes. >> And we thought that makes them good at leading. It's two different skill sets.

>> Two different completely different skill sets. And so if you're going to move that person, they have to have a desire

to learn how to become a leader cuz now they got to put the training wheels back on.

>> They don't know what the flip they're doing. >> And you know, it's the same thing we get

confused like because someone is in a movie, we think that we're they think we're supposed to care what they think

about life. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes.

>> And you know, it's the same thing. It's the wrong skill set. >> Yeah.

>> You're in a movie, which means you learn to play someone else. You don't even play yourself. You play someone else.

and now I'm supposed to care what you think about politics. I couldn't >> and how do we know whether you're

speaking for you or for someone else? >> So, yeah, I think you know, so yeah, if we've done this with tech guys on our

team, the tech guys, they want to lead a squad because they're great at writing code. Well, that's a whole different

skill set. So, you got to go, you got to lean into the new skill set if you're going to do that to be a leader. So you

can choose, but leadership, I mean, we all three teach leadership. And so it's it's a skill. And I've heard you say

this, and I've stolen it from you a long time ago, that there are no born leaders. You go to the hospital, they

say it's a little boy, little girl. They never say it's a leader. >> No, that's right. No born leaders.

>> Tactically, I think it's crazy not to have the three of you weigh in. leaders of organizations and teams are watching

and listening and they feel that pressure to promote a high performer and and they feel like, hey, I've done that

before. Tactically speaking, you guys have taught and written about leadership training. What do they do in the moment

to to practically assess whether or not this high performer does have what it takes just from a chemistry makeup and

then be trained to lead? How do they know that this person's got it? >> Well, I'm not sure you always know. I've

had a lot of once I knew and when I put them where they were I thought they should be, I knew that I shouldn't have

done it. >> So, I I'm not sure you always know. I I I I think somebody just has it pat. But

I'll tell you what I do know. >> I know in promoting people, and I've done this for many, many years. I've

never promoted a person until they had trained their replacement. Because one of the things I learned to

do is don't promote somebody and get a vacancy that you have to go find somebody.

>> And so what happens is when you promote a person that has reproduced themselves, what you do know is that they have the

ability to develop somebody. You don't know if they have the ability to develop a lot of people, but I my whole thing is

has always been work yourself out of a job. And if you work yourself out of a job, I'll give you another one. But if

you can't work yourself out of the job you have, pretty much I'm going to take it away from you. Because the way to

reproduce leaders is to reproduce people that are under you. And that's how you kind of find if they can't reproduce

one, I wouldn't put them in a position to reproduce some more. I mean, let's just find out start with one and see if

it's any good or not. You know, I'm kind of sitting here thinking, gosh, I should know the answer to this question. The

first thing I would do though about I would go find out what their motive for wanting to be that leader is.

>> Am I wanting to be large and in charge or am I wanting to serve? >> That's right.

>> And that's your latest book. And uh >> the why. >> So, but usually that's got to for me

that's been someone that's emotionally immature. >> They they might be young or they might

be old, but they're at least emotionally immature because they're wanting it for selfish reasons because leadership that

isn't service-based. John Maxwell post all that you know is is not real leadership

>> right you know what's interesting though sometimes an organization creates a culture where they actually celebrate

their leaders which is upside down like that's that's what success looks like and it's like no you should celebrate

the people that are contributing the most not and the leader job is to do that. So if you've created a culture

where becoming a leader is seen as successful and more important, then you're actually going to attract those

emotionally immature people. So I would say first, like, does this person think I'm going to think they're more

important if I promote them? Secondly, do they really want to do the job of managing? Do you want to sit and listen

to people's issues? Do you want to work them out? Do you want to coach people? And if they're interested in the title,

not the actual work, >> do not do that. >> I agree. Well, that's back to where we

started. Well, they're going to be mean. Yeah. Really? Yeah. >> The opposite of that was the very first

guy I ever hired and I think all I think everybody knows him in in this row uh was a guy named Russ Carroll.

>> And Russ had been in ministry and he'd been on the Jesus film project back in the day.

>> Oh wow. >> The Jesus film around Russia. >> And so he came to work for me probably

30 plus years ago. And he worked for us for about uh 13 years and retired. And uh but Russ came in his first job when

the very first guy I ever hired was doing financial coaching counseling one-on-one. And so as we grew, you know,

he'd been with me and he was the first guy. I'm like, I want to reward the guy. I want to give you the opportunity. And

and so we had like other counselors now on board. We had to have somebody lead the counselors and we had a counseling

department that developed with a P&L. And I said, "Russ, you need to be like head of the counseling department." He

goes, "You mean that I have to take care of all these people and I have to do the P&L and I have to do a budget?" And I

said, "Yeah, that's what it would be." And you'd make a lot more money and you'd be promoted. And he goes, "Oh,

that would be leukemia to my spirit." >> That's good. >> That honesty, that don't you love that?

>> You know what? He retired as a c from us as a counselor. Yeah. >> Never moved and and was fabulous, but

he's like, "Nope, don't want that. Don't want to do that." I think too many people look at promotions as going

somewhere instead of growing somewhere. And I I I promise you uh if you grow into a situation, you can handle the

next situation. >> But if you go into it, you can't handle it. Who who says I mean there has to be

a way of showing that you can take the next level. And people I tell people all the time the way you show you do the

next level is that you grow into that. And so I think too many times we talk about can they go with me? The question

I always have is can they grow with me? Because so many times we know what it's like to hire somebody also and we

outgrow them and and there comes a day where I mean I people can help you at a certain level but you get to another

level. Honestly, some really good people can no longer help you. Not because they're don't desire to help you. It's

because they they just don't have capacity. >> Something just occurred to me and based

on what you said and you said, and that is that I'm not supposed to point. My wife says, but I always do.

>> Please do. We'll know who you're talking. >> She's not here. We won't.

>> Yeah, that's right. >> But um the thing about it is it's like we like leading. I really do like

leading. I the the as as I'm getting older, I'm realizing this is sounds silly, but not everybody is like me. So

sometimes like when you thought to that to him, you said, "Well, you should now take over this department." And I

sometimes will hire somebody and manage them the way that I would like to be managed. And they're like, "I don't want

that." >> No. >> I'm like, "You have all the freedom you

want. You come up with your own job title. You figure it all out." And they're like, "I don't like that." I'm

like, "What do you mean that would be my favorite job?" And they're like, "I'm not like you." And so you need to manage

people, promote people based on who they are, not who we would be if we were in their situation.

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month. That's jointdeleteme.com/front row seat. I want to stay real quick on this motive. I'd love for each of you to

just share. What do you think is a mandatory motive? We're talking about passion here and for leading people. So,

what is one that's just mandatory? You got to have it if you're going to truly love leading.

>> Two things, not one. >> Go for it. >> Because what we teach is everything

rises on leadership also falls on leadership. In other words, leadership is either the

nicest thing that ever happens to a group of people or it's the worst thing that ever happens to a group of people.

>> But I think there are only two things. One is leadership skills. You just you have to have leadership skills. You have

to be trained to lead. >> Yeah. But I think also good values and and I I used to just do leadership

skills and and one day I real well when Enron happened in 2000 when all of a sudden what you put on the wall and what

you walk isn't the same thing and all of a sudden I realized no it's a values issue too. And the reason it's a values

issue is the only thing that leaders have in common is they see more than others see and they see before.

They see they see a bigger picture. Leaders always do, but they also see it quicker. And when I started off, man, 50

plus years ago now, you didn't have to see before. You just had to see more. >> But today, before is starting to replace

more. >> Trust me, in the next 10 years, before will be prominent over more because of

social media and all the things now that are AI and all. I mean, this is a day now, you know, the fastest person

doesn't win the race. It's the person who started first and and and this is going to be very key because here's what

happens. If I see more than you and I see before you, it's what I call the leadership

advantage. I'm going to win. I don't mean this unkindly. I'm going to win. I saw more. I saw before. We come to the

table, but I'm going to win. Now the question goes back to your motive book that was so good Patrick. Great book.

>> Thank you. >> I mean the why why do you want to lead that uh Dave talking about a moment ago.

Now watch this. If I see more than you and I see before you, I can win. Now the question is when I

know I can win, what am I going to do with that? Am I going to make a decision to win for you

or am I going to make a decision to win for me? And that's why motives are essential in

leadership. Because if I motivate you, which leaders should do, I move us together for mutual advantage. But if I

manipulate you, I move you for my advantage. And and the the irony is that the best way for you to win is to cause

them to win. >> Absolutely, Dave. >> That's the irony.

>> Totally. And if you never get the credit, that's the inverted pyramid. >> I mean, Dave, if we come to the table

and you're you see more before I So, I come to the table and you win and I go away and you come back. Come on, let's

do something else. So, I come back to the table and you win and I lose and about the third time you say, "Come on,

let's go back to the table." I said, "I don't want to go to the table with you. You win all the time." And

>> playing golf with you. >> Well, no, no, don't do that. >> You guys should play golf with me.

>> I just talked about my game. I didn't talk about your game. I was so kind and so charitable and now you now you are

beating me. Now you brought it up. Oh, but since you brought it up No, I I'm kid. We've had some great times. I'll

tell you. You know, there's a word that I've come to realize and and this is all about servant leadership. And servant

leadership comes from Jesus, right? And that is I would say if you're not willing to suffer more in for the

benefit of those other people and I like to say suffer because there are moments in every leader lots of them where

you're like this stinks but it's for them. >> The econ the personal economics of

leadership are bad. If you're doing it because you're like I'm going to get more.

>> Yeah. It's like you literally have to go, I'm going to take this job knowing that I will I will hurt more in order to

protect them and that I will then take care of myself last. >> I had a mentor when I was in my 20s said

gave me great advice. >> Yeah. >> He said there are no two good

consecutive days in a leader's life. >> That's a pretty good >> Isn't that good? It just it he wasn't

>> sparring. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean it sounds so cynical and so but but I just I've

appreciate and let's put it this way 50 years later I'm still remembering it. Why? Because it's difficult. It is not

easy. >> I was being interviewed by a reporter asking stupid reporter questions. And

she said, "Did you ever imagine that this Ramsay thing would get to be this size?" I'm like, "Of course I did."

I mean, how many people are in debt across a small market? Of course, I knew it was going to lead. What I didn't know

>> is how much maneuver I was going to have to shovel. >> What I didn't know was I was going to

have to learn how to lead instead of being a boss to get there. What I didn't know was that that there's going to be a

lot of pain and suffering in order to get the other. So, the end of that story is not just uh I I have to embrace the

suffering and the pain. The the part of the story that's good is that it's worth it totally

>> because it takes you where you want to go. >> Of course,

>> but if you analyze it on any given day or week, you're going to look at it and go and like my wife will tell you like

this is a lot of this is coming at cost of course >> but it's a cost worth.

>> You always have to go beyond the the immediate. If you if you live for the immediate, you're never Well, you're not

a leader anyway to be honest with you. But you have to always understand that the cause has to be bigger than you and

and more important than you and it has to be in the long haul. The long haul you leadership is long haul. There's no

such thing as and I think that's part of the problem we have in so many areas of leadership such as government where it's

turmoil. I mean you where you're in there for just brief periods of time in and out. You can't you can't quick fix

lives by just doing hit and miss leadership. >> Uh never before have we seen such

distrust in the American people to government officials, but also we're seeing it in the Gallup state of the

workplace report that came out earlier this year. A disconnect between what uh the rank and file employee team member

is expecting versus what leaders are saying we're delivering. And it's and so there's a lack of trust. So the question

to you three is how does a leader establish trust with their team in such an environment of distrust? Well, I

think it gets back to what we've been saying and that is they need to know that that you're you're most interested

in their benefit and and and yes, Gallup says all these since we've seen all this, but go to good organizations and

they're not perfect. The best organizations are messy, but if you go to Ramsay, people trust leadership

there. >> Yeah. And and yeah, maybe this is only 15% of companies, but that's what makes

the top 15% great. People there and I I knew your company years and years ago, people trusted you.

>> Yeah. >> So even though the macro says people don't trust go to the very best

companies and people go, "Yeah, we trust the leaders. Go to the best churches. Go to the best schools." And it is a comp,

it is the competitive advantage, but they need to know that you're willing to to take on hard things for them. Well,

the proof has to be in the pudding, right? Meaning that you're going to put their best interest at heart when you're

making a decision whether or not they understand it at the moment. Y >> I mean,

>> my kids go brush your teeth so you have some later, >> right?

>> You know, and they don't go brush your teeth. Go back and do it. You your toothbrush isn't wet. I'm going to whoop

you. Get up there and brush your teeth, right? They're not real sure I'm serving them right then, but I am actually doing

it for their best interest because it's not gonna affect me unless I had to smell their breath or it really it's not

it's not gonna affect me. Go do your studies, get your grades so you learn the discipline of academic rigor and do

the stuff because that's going to carry you out where you don't have to live in my basement later. So, I'm trying to

teach you how to live your I'm your best interest at heart when I'm parenting those kids. True.

>> And the same thing's true of the team member. I look at him, I go, I can't move you into this or I can't continue

to keep you here if you continue in this behavior because I've got your best interest at heart. You're going to get

sued and me sued with you. You're stopping this now. And you know, and that's a problem. You But you've got to

do it with their best interest in heart, not just I'm going to protect myself against you. No, you got to learn how to

do this thing, man. >> And I'm not going to please you all the time.

>> Exactly. So I I was just telling Ken before we >> serving doesn't always feel like sweet,

you know, it's not unicorns and Skittles, baby. I mean, serving sometimes is got a little edge to it.

>> We got a new priest, a new pastor at my church this weekend. >> And he stood up. I loved it. Everybody

else did, too. But he loved it. He I mean, he stood up and he goes, "Hey, you guys, I just want you to know something.

I'm not here to be your buddy. I'm here for you to go to heaven." And that's why I'm here. And it we it

was like yes cuz you know how somebody's like well I'm here to do to give you everything you want. He goes we're going

to make changes around here to get you to heaven. You might not like him at first but that's my job and I might not

like everybody. I'm going to love everybody but I'm my job is to get and I was just like yes

>> but he's other centered not self-centered >> totally

>> in that in that quote tough love. >> He would die so that I could go to heaven but he's not going to tell me

something I want to hear just to make me feel better. That's I'll follow that guy.

>> Trust takes time. >> Yes. >> I mean, when the when the person says

trust me, there's that's a nice phrase, but prove it. It takes time. >> Mhm.

>> And and uh I think this is the big miss in a dysfunctional culture. >> Mhm.

>> That that uh everything is for the moment and and trust is have has to you know, you have to earn that you have to

earn that trust. And and I think that as I look at it, I mean, I remember several about 12 or 13 years ago, I spoke uh for

the opening session at the United Nations and they asked me to speak to all the ambassadors.

>> Oh, you I did that, too. >> No, I'm just teasing. >> I spoke to the opening session of the

United Nations. >> Great. >> I did that yesterday.

>> You know, you you couldn't do that because you were on Mars at that time, remember? You were on Mars. You couldn't

you couldn't so well you're asking yourself how can you talk to ambassadors of countries you know 200 countries when

they come from total different leadership cultures >> and they want me to do two hours on

leadership and so it took me a while I mean I had to work on this but I came up with three

questions that followers ask of their leaders regardless of culture first question is do you like me they

just really want to know if you like them you just don't you I want to follow somebody that likes you. Ah, versus do

you like me? >> Yes. >> Number two, can you help me?

Is it going to get any better? I mean, why would you follow a leader if they can't help you?

And thirdly, can I trust you? >> And the last one comes last, but it's the deepest of all leadership.

And once that leadership can truly be trusted >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, and and it

has to be tested to be trusted. >> But the first two without those >> Oh, yeah. Those are variables we can

control. I'll tell you another variable that I've learned the hard way is there are folks that are

have been through stuff. They're wounded and they're not going to trust no matter what happens.

>> So, the best thing you can do there is don't hire them. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's very true. >> And encourage them to go get healing. You know, it's like we had a dog one

time that we got from the pound. They they call them rescue dogs now, but um and that dog, I never raised a hand to

that dog, but you walk up to it flex. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because of what had happened to it

before me. >> Yeah. >> There wasn't anything I could ever do to

get that healed. >> And so the poor dog was sad. And people's spirits sometimes they come to

you damaged and they just, you know, they're never they're always looking for what's wrong or and better off just not

have that in the building, right? You're right, Dave. It's like people say, "Well, how do you lead everyone?" I

said, "I don't know. I've never led everyone. >> Everyone doesn't follow." You know what

I'm saying? So, leadership has a you there's a limitation to anything that you do. And you're right. Whether it's

trust or whatever part of leadership there is, there's just some people that you come to a conclusion I

>> that you can't lead them. >> Yeah. Not they're not not supposed to be on our team. Maybe somebody else's team,

not supposed to be on my team. This is so hard because people that are leaders think, well, if somebody rejects me and

leaves or I have to make them available to the market, as a friend of mine says, um,

our director says we had to help them participate with the inevitable with the inevitable.

>> That's a guy named Bobby Herrera. What a great book. But but the point is we're we're not supposed to be not everybody's

meant to be in our organization. Not everybody's supposed to follow us. When we feel like we've failed, I would say

this, you're failing if nobody ever leaves. >> If I need people, I can't lead people.

>> Because if I really need you, Dave, then I can't lead you because I'm going to do everything I can to please you. And if

I'm going to do everything I can to please you there, I mean, I I've never known I never known leadership that made

people happy all the time, right? >> And it doesn't. So, but if I need you, I really can't lead because now I'm going

to become codependent on you. And and now now we're going back to the buddy. It's like your priest. Yeah. I like

that. You know, I I didn't come to be your buddy. I came to take you to heaven. Well, as a leader, we our

responsibility isn't to be the best friend. It is to be the best leader we can for. Right. There's a difference.

>> I talk to you a lot about making sure that you're bringing your best to work. But it's hard to bring your best when

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better. And by the way, I love those three questions, John. Fantastic. I don't think you can get the third one

without the first two. Is that fair? I'm learning with you. No, no. If they know you like them,

>> the third comes last. Trust is the greatest relationship that a leader can have with his people, but it's the last

relationship you get. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> It's not the first. So, the trust, in fact, let me just say one more thing. >> It does take time. You said that.

>> That's exactly right. So, what happens is when I'm a new leader, the words I say carry a lot of weight because you

don't know me, right? >> So, I'm coming in saying, "Here's where we're going." Oh my gosh, this is where

we're going. Okay. About six months later, my words lose credibility if my actions

don't back them up. >> So what happens is words work for six months. Well, so when leaders said,

"Well, I said this. I said this." I said, "Well, how long you been with it?" "Well, for two months." Well, that

works. You keep talking. But after about 6 months, it doesn't work. Now, everything that you say is

gauged by what you do because people don't do what they hear. People do what they see.

>> Yeah. So if they do what they see, now what happens? If you back it up with your actions, Dave, you know this. Then

your words have even more weight. Now when I talk, they have gravitas. But if I don't back it up with my

actions, they don't even carry a grain of salt. You have this priest that's taking over

our our parish. 6 months is when we I mean, like, he's saying good stuff. >> Oh, he's saying we're good. Hey,

>> we're going to be watching. >> That's right. in about 6 months he's either what he says is going to have

great impact because you say yeah he backs that up you know or else what he says you're going to say he's preaching

you know what I'm saying it happens all the time I you know I look up so they're preaching you know what I'm saying ain't

going to happen just good for 30 minutes listen to it and go have lunch you know what I'm saying

um I'd love to get from you guys communication a do and a don't something that you you guys have observed served.

You've spoken, you've led a communication do for leaders and a communication don't. What comes to mind?

>> I don't communicate things that I feel people are incapable of achieving. I'm very careful on you know what's an

example. >> I'll give you an example. I don't you hardly ever hear me talk about talent.

I mean, it's like if I need a 7 foot high jumper, it isn't going to do me any good to get seven people that can jump

one foot. I got to get a seven foot high jumper. I'm not going to teach high jumping to

people can't do high jumping. And a long time ago, I I I I love stretching people, but there's a difference between

stretching people in their giftedness so that they can grow into it and go in. And so, therefore, I'm very careful.

There are just a few things I seldom teach. I would like to I'm doing a I'm right now working on a book called the

1% factor because I know this for a fact that the first 90% of your growth gives you if you're in the top 10% you get a

high return in life. But people have no clue if you can go from the 90% up to the 99

if if you can go 9% more. They have no clue the compounding effect of the last 9%.

In fact, 8 to 10 times more return on the last 9% than on the first 90%.

Now, my frustration in because I'm working on a book right now and I have one frustration about it. I've just got

to be honest with the reader. You can't get in that 1% if you're not talented. You just you just can't get there. I I

mean, and why would I write about something that you either have it or you don't got it? Why frustrate people? Why

why talk about high jumping to Hey, why don't I teach people that look like me to ballet dance?

Because we can't ballet, you know? I mean, why? I'm not going to encourage me to sing. I can't sing. I mean there are

certain things that you just don't one of the things leaders understand is they understand

their limits and the people's limits and what they can handle and what they can't handle. I still remember I had a really

a terrific team player, a great team player who did super and he wanted to be the president and I sat down a half a

dozen times. I said honestly um I can't do that for you but I mean he cried. I I love you and I love this organization. I

want to be president. And I said, "The problem is if I make you president, I'm gonna have to fire you

and I don't want to fire you, but I will fire you, but I don't want to fire. Don't don't make me fire you." And what

was I talking about? He doesn't have that kind of capacity. And I think that so when communicating the question is

what don't you communicate? I have very little desire to communicate things that I think people have no capacity to to do

and especially goes in the area of giftedness, calling, talents, those things. I don't touch them very much

because I think pretty much you either got it or you don't got it. And if you got it, you get it. If you don't got it,

you won't get it. So if you don't got it, why should I try to get you to get it and just frustrate you and frustrate

me? Don't tell, don't affirm somebody in something that's not good for them. >> Sure.

>> And it's so tempting to do that. A friend of mine said talked about how love is truth and grace.

You You're not loving somebody if you don't give them truth and grace. And the truth is what you did for that person.

>> It's cruel if you take out either one. And so often as managers, because if you want that short-term benefit, you'll

tell somebody something they want to hear >> just to get through the meeting and to

make them feel good. >> Sure. And it's cruelty. And a great leader is going to be like what you did

there. That was amazing. That was uncomfortable. That guy cried and you told him you were.

>> He's a good friend. He's a very good friend. >> So, so don't affirm. It's so tempting in

that moment to tell somebody something they want to hear and then they walk away and go, "Well, that got me through

that meeting, but >> now this person's going to suffer." >> I tell if you want to be an expert, tell

them what they want to hear because you can get on a plane and you leave. >> Exactly.

>> Yeah. Most >> if you want to be a leader, tell them truth.

Most leaders, oddly enough, don't suffer from too much truth.

>> No, >> most of them suffer from I'm in front of someone. I care about the person and I

if I'm going to go on one side of that spectrum or the other, you go to the grace side and you go to the en grace

without truth is enabling. >> And so you're just you're putting up with stuff. And when I first started

um and I'm listening those John Maxwell cassette tapes, you know, and I'm in there and I'm trying to be nice. I'm

trying to be nice and I'm from the South and so you have to be nice. So bless your heart,

>> which can mean I'm going to slit your throat, but bless your heart, right? Bless your heart. Bless your heart.

Sweet, sweet tea. Sweet tea. Passive aggressive is a science in this culture, right? And so I'm trying to be nice. I'm

trying to be nice. And I finally figured out I was so frustrated with their lack of performance or lack of talent, the

lack of fit, whatever that was going on, >> that I was not being kind, >> right,

>> by not telling the truth. >> That's very true. >> And so we, for my sake, we developed a

saying that we still use at Ramsay, to be unclear is to be unkind. >> That's very good.

>> Yeah. So I've got to be clear. >> It's very good >> in the in the in the context of being

kind, right? so that I can be kind. Cuz this sweet tea kindness, this passive aggress, that's not real kindness.

You're not helping them. >> That's just that's cowardice. And so I had to stand up and go, okay, I got to

be strong enough to look at the person and say, "Okay, here's what's really going on. We're going to have a

difficult conversation. It's going to be very unpleasant for the next 35 seconds. Get ready. Here we go.

>> Saddle up, baby. Buckle up, buttercup. Here we go." Right? And and that get that done. So mine mine is um

the thing that the the one I've had learned and it's personal. It may not apply to everybody else, but the the

don't communicate is when I'm emotional, >> when I'm frustrated, >> wait

>> or >> yeah, >> scared

or caught off guard, spooked, whatever. whatever emotion when when I can feel my my hillbilly coming up, you know, for

whatever reason, I got to stop and go boom. >> Yeah,

>> I'm going to take 24 hours. You sit right there. I'll be back in an hour. I'll be back in a day. And I made myself

a promise when we started all those years ago. So, we've got about 2,000 people now that used to work at Ramsey.

There's about 1100 there now. And of those, a certain number we helped, you know, discover their new passion

somewhere else. a certain number quit because they didn't want to work for us or certain number got married and moved

to Oklahoma, you know, whatever, right? But but of those 2,000, 100% of them were never fired by any leader inside of

Ramsey, including me, while the leader was angry. >> Yeah.

>> Not firing anybody in anger. >> Yeah. >> Not even going to discipline someone in

anger. >> That's good. >> And uh and um I have violated that two

times. I didn't fire anybody, but two times in my whole career and cost me dearly. It cost that trust.

>> You eroded that trust. I never got it back with those two people. >> Yeah.

>> It's interesting because vulnerability is at the heart of of humility and great leadership. But vulnerability doesn't

mean you do it. And we've all made this mistake. You don't do it while you're in that place. Vulnerability is going to

somebody and saying, "I I have been angry or I have been I have been afraid or I've been." But you don't do it in

the emotion. You admit that you have that flaw. And some people think that vulnerability is going there and being

raw. >> And no, self-control. >> That's your That's your lack of self

control. That's a lack of self. >> That's a good distinction. >> He made me think about that is a lot of

people say, "Well, I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to go be angry at them or be sad or and it's like, no, no,

no, no, no. Admit to them that you have those feelings, but bring it to them when you're not in the midst of all

that." >> Abra Abraham Lincoln did that as president. He wrote letters he never

sent. Mhm. >> And what he found, he said, "I write the letters during my emotion because I want

to put on paper how I really feel." But he said, "The next day I read it again and I realized it was for me."

When I'm in the better spirit, when I'm channeling my inner Pation, my inner John Maxwell, I would my the the

communication would be I ask a lot of questions. Do >> ask questions. Do ask questions. They're

not manipulative passive aggressive questions. Not a sales technique. I'm not trying to, you know, you know, do

you want the blue one or the green one? That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, you know, what's really

going on here? What's really happening here? And and pull, you're pulling then instead of pushing. That's a good

leaders pull, bosses push. >> That's a good dude. >> Love that

>> because you're not you're not leading or speaking out of assumptions now. Exactly.

>> You're you're you're finding common ground with them. So I that's a very good dude.

>> If I already know the answer to the question, I asked the question, that's not that's not a question. That's

manipulation. >> Yeah, that's correct. No, no, that's that's

>> genuine curiosity. finding out really where they are because you can't really lead them until you find them.

>> Exactly. >> You got to find them and then >> and I got to say, you know, we talked

about trust. That is a huge huge do for developing trust cuz when you're asking a question, you're not making a

statement at them that they're forced to absorb. You're handing them the ball, if you will, and now you're showing them, I

actually want to hear >> what you think. And they feel seen and heard, which develops trust. You know,

building on that, I would say a do cuz I feel like I have to give you a do. A guy named Terry Pierce who's passed away

wrote a great book and one of the things he said in there is anticipate people's objections.

>> Oh, it's good. >> And but that doesn't mean but you have to ask. You can't say I know what you're

thinking. But you can go, hey, if I were you, I might be worried about this or this or this. Is there anything else I'm

missing? So, it's asking questions to anticipate and get those things out there. That that's a vulnerable thing.

So, I I think that's something I've learned in over the years. It's like before I start telling you something, I

want to say, "Hey, are you feeling this way?" Because if I were you, I might be worried about this. Is there anything

else I don't understand? Um I I I heard a great story the other day about that you talked about um asking questions.

Somebody said like an HR person came to this guy and said, "Did you tell her she's stupid?" No, no, no. I asked her

if she was stupid. >> Can't jump seven feet. I'm just saying. >> But but but but try to empathize with

somebody and go, "Are you if I were you, I might be worried about these things?" And some people go, "Oh, so you thought

about how I'm feeling." Oh, that makes me feel so much better that you're aware of that. Okay. Yeah.

>> Sure. Sure. >> John, you got to I know you have at least one do. What's a communication do?

You say leaders got to do it. >> I I wrote a book about a year and a half ago on the 16 laws of communication.

>> And the best part of the book, I think, is this. >> Whatever you're communicating,

you have your best message and your big message. Now your best message is the message

you're giving them at that moment. And I call it the best message because it's what they need or what you feel they

need and you're giving your best to deliver it. Okay? So it's it it changes. So the best message today won't be the

it it can because you're leading. But then you have also the big message and the big message has nothing to do

with your subject. It has everything to do with who you are as a person. No one ever talks about this message,

but this is what gives credibility and gravitas to what you say. And there are four actions when you

talked about to to to be unclear is to be unkind or I think you to be clear is to be kind. When you

talked about that a moment ago, Dave, this is all about clarity. As a communicator, I think you need clarity

out of your DNA. And so I asked myself four questions. What what do I want? What do I want the people to uh see?

What do I want them to know? What do I want them to feel? And what do I want them to do?

And when I walk in to teach, I already have that. The subject may change, but what I what I what I want

them to see, I want them to see their possibilities. I'm a possibility communicator.

>> I I want to lift their lid. I want them I want them to see more for themselves than they've ever seen for themselves. I

want them to see the possibilities. What I want them to know is that I value them

because valuing people is the greatest compliment a

communicator can ever give the people. You are worthwhile. Okay. I want them to see the

possibilities. I want them to know that I value them. What I want them to feel is empowered.

I want them to when I when I'm done, I don't care if they say think I'm amazing. I want them to think that they

can be amazing. >> I want to empower. That's why I'm very careful of not empowering people in what

they can't do. >> Mhm. >> Because they'll like me today, they'll

hate me tomorrow. So, what do I want? I want to empower them. I want to I want them to I want

them to feel like, yeah, I can do that. And then what I want them to do is I want them to apply and multiply. I want

them to apply what I said and then I want them to get other people to do it too. I want them to but I work in a

leader world. So I'm always working with leaders who I not only want you to learn something. I want you to pass on to

someone else. Those four things. Ask yourself those four questions and then you fill in the answer because there's

not a right answer to it. It's just But if you'll be honest and fill in the right word for each one of those four

questions, you'll very quickly discover what your DNA is as a communicator. >> That's gold, right?

>> Yeah. But does that make sense? Yeah. But I want to say this, there are wrong answers. There are wrong answers. Cuz as

you were going through that, I liked how you filled it in. I think there's something a little bit more universal

that I think some of the answers you had were actually good universal answers. Cuz it's like, what do I want them to

feel? The wrong answer is good. Generically good. cuz that will lead us to tell them what they want to hear.

>> Sure. Sure. >> So, I like that you said, "I want them to feel empowered

to do what they can actually do." Cuz sometimes if you have the wrong answers to those things, here's what I want them

to know. If it's not based in truth and virtue, >> but that's what your DNA is.

You answer that question and you find out who you are as a communicator. >> Well, we know Pat well. That's exactly

who Pat is. Like if you're consulting in a private room with leaders and you have or you're on a stage in front of 10,000

people that is his DNA. I thought that that's who you are. You are truth and virtue like a sword.

>> People who know you >> that was all I'm thinking about is the times where I've not done that like but

that's but if you answer that question with words you get your DNA. So does that we all do. And the what's beautiful

is >> when people hear a communicator speak, they hear the message,

but they feel the DNA of that communicator. >> That's right.

>> And they walk out of that room thinking about what they heard, but sensing what they just experienced.

And that's huge. And the moment you understand that as a communicator and get clarity on what your DNA is, then

when you go and you speak with such you help people so much because they don't understand it, but they'll experience it

when it's over. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We look for help or support in some really weird places

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betterhelph.com/ken. >> All right, we have a question right here in front.

>> The three of you are best-selling authors and I'm curious individually your your what your recipe

for success on a on a bestselling book is. >> Well, I there something I was just

thinking this applies to all of us. I'm pretty sure and I don't know who first came who said

this. We I tried to attribute to somebody I've got, but there's a saying that says what's assumed is most

important. What's assumed is most what you what everybody else assumes everybody gets is

actually what they need to hear. And this is this this rocked my world because I think that I just remind

people of things that are simple that they've overlooked because we're always looking for that next thing. And and

it's like if you just communicate without pride like I I don't care if you think this is simple or not. I think

this is what we need to hear. I can't tell you how many times people go your book. I think I knew all that stuff but

I just forgotten it. >> Yeah. >> And yet so many times people think I

want to be a bestselling author so I'm going to be the most aerodite really sophisticated. I'm going to go for the

highest hanging fruit there is. And most people are like just give me the stuff I can use. And I think all of our stuff

that, you know, an academic could go, "Well, that's so simple." It's like I go, "Yeah, it is." Huh.

>> Yeah. It's it's a beautiful comment. >> And so I think it's tell people what what they can benefit from rather than

trying to prove that you're the smartest guy in the room or gal in the room. >> I can affirm that's true with certainly

both of your all's books and how we've used them. Yes. Like your book, um, Ideal Team Player.

>> Ideal Team Player is hungry, humble, and smart. We had these people at Ramsey and we're like, "Okay, that person, they

never fit in and they finally ejected or were ejected or whatever." We always said they don't get it and we we

couldn't put it into words. It's like they just somehow they didn't have Ramsay. They didn't get Ramsay soul.

They didn't they just didn't get it. And we really horrible at trying to put words to what had happened. And then

along comes Ideal Team Player and it's like hungry, humble, smart. So simple. >> They weren't hungry. That's why they

That's what we meant. Or they weren't smart with people. That's what they meant. or and we're like okay now this

is the framework now when we're interviewing we're interviewing for this so we don't have to have an ejection

later right or a rejection later >> there's even you have a conference room called humble hungry and smart

>> we do I mean it's that bag big a deal cuz it was like bing it was the obvious thing we couldn't put words to it you

put words to it and went okay and that book yeah it sells like a it sells like crazy

>> and you know what's crazy I wasn't going to write it I thought it was too simple >> and a friend said Pat this is a this is

great >> that was that was a great illustration because I feel that same

When I when I heard the three, I I thought that just put into simple words exactly what we were looking for. I

mean, I think you're really good at that. I I think that's one of the strengths of your

>> Thank you. >> I want to brag on John. I I've had the privilege to work for this guy here and

this guy, which is nuts. U shows they as great as they are. >> Poor judgment.

>> Okay. >> Okay. Sure. Little awkward. Sure. My resume, Pat. I'd like to get the

triumph. Um, one of the things I saw John do, you used to talk about it and I know you're going to share, but I did

want to brag on this because I think for anybody who feels like they got content in them, they need to take this

Maxwellian theory. And you would get an idea >> and you would go, "All right, I got to

talk it first. I got to go deliver this in front of the leaders first. And I got to take this one thought because this

guy's a thought machine. He's exactly the way he is now privately. He's just got an idea all the time." And he'd go,

"Oh, oh," you know, and and he'd tell all of us young pups about it. We're kind of like, "Yeah, that's pretty good,

John." And we thought it was the next book. He go, "No, no, no, not yet." And you really were disciplined to go out

and try it first. And I I I admire that. >> Thank you. >> I had a mentor when I started writing

because writing was very difficult for me. Um, communicating orally is was just kind of a natural fit. Writing was not

at all. And so, um, I'll never forget it was my third book. And I, so I had a mentor that had sold a lot of books. In

fact, it was Jim Dobson. >> You know, of course, so old people would remember him. Young people wouldn't have

a clue, but >> focused on the family back in the day. Wow. And so Jim said, "Yeah." And so he

told me he'd help me. And >> so I took the third, my third book I wrote out to Colorado Springs and had

dinner with him and Shirley. And I was so proud. It was my first book off the press. I handed it to him. And he I'll

never forget he he looked at it and smiled and and and and then he just probably took about two or three minutes

never said we're kind of went table of contents looked at it put it down. So let me ask you a question. He said is

this your best book? Well I said yeah it's it's the best I can do. It's I mean it's only my third

book but it's the best I can do. And I'll never forget he looked at me. He said good.

He said, "Because you're only as good as your last book. Don't ever

not give the people your very best." >> Now, that was huge for me because I've written a few books. I still ask myself

every time, is this my best book? All but one of mine um the first one

have been um first worked out on the air and on the stage. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I do that

>> um to where I knew >> Yeah. >> that the we were touching the felt need.

I knew we were catching the visceral response. The humor was working, the oz, the body language, the lean in the

stuff. You can see the re the reaction. And then I've just somehow got to put that to paper. And I'm I'm a speaker

first, writer second. I'm not a very good writer. You can ask my English teacher in college. Um so now there's a

reason we have editors at Ramsey. Me. And so um and I've had to fight and push back on editors and publishers to keep

enough >> of my uh slang and my personality in there because that's what was connecting

on the stage as well as the actual core message. So, the baby steps were uh you know, that's the core of our

best-selling book to date, uh Total Money Makeover, and uh it's sold, I guess, more than all my others put

together probably. Uh it's a perennial. It's always done done. It's still good. And but the baby steps were taught in

Financial Peace University and we're I'm in the trenches in small groups walking people, seeing them turn the page, so to

speak. >> Absolutely. and and follow this clear path. So, um the the second thing was

that part of our social proofing then and we've learned to do this with most things at Ramsey is the what you were

talking about earlier on communication is the do the last step. What do we want them to do? Um and we've got to give

them a clear path because we're in the self-improvement space. So whether it's Dr. John Deloney on anxiety. Uh Ken

Coleman and careers and self-improvement. Um George Camel or me or Rachel Cruz who Jade Washer who any

of us in the money space they need a clear path to get where they're going because there's so much gobbledegoop in

the spaces that we're in. And so a clear path is essential. And if you put a clear path in there and then you make

them and and you stir in a big dose of hope that they can really do it, then they'll go do the clear path and then

the book will sell because they'll tell everybody about it because it changes their life. The other thing is in my

spiritual walk, I'm not always sure whether it's the Holy Spirit or last night's pizza

telling me to >> which speaking to me. And if I social proof it,

>> if it's God, if it's God's spirit, >> the truth bell will ring. You You'll hear the tuning fork. That's good.

>> And you'll see it in the eyes of the people. If it's just me full of crap, which is last night's pizza, and I'm

blaming God for it. >> I'm going, God, no, bull. It wasn't him. And it doesn't it doesn't prove out.

>> Yeah, it's true. >> In the market, then God's truth will if it's not got God's truth in it, it won't

prove out in the marketplace. and what we're doing cuz what we're doing is lining stuff up with scriptural

principles in every case. >> And you know, but you can make up some translated version of whatever you want

to make the scripture fit your screwed up idea. And that's called a cult. And you know, so uh that's right. you know,

instead I'm I'm looking for is this really God >> in that and and I can't get that just in

waking up having a great idea in the morning going for a walk and I'm sure it's God.

>> My my experience is I'm not that tuned in. >> Now there are people that are better

spiritually than I am and they're all tuned in and they're the people that scare me to death.

>> That's right. >> That's great. Gosh, the listening he reminded me of something because the

first book I I didn't know I was ever going to be a business author and I came up with a theory and I was working with

a client and they said you better write a book about this and I said I don't know if I'm going to write a book and I

was a writer. I was a screenwriter. I grew up loving writing but but I didn't want to write a book just to write a

book. And I had a guy call me once and said I want to be a best-selling author. So I'm going to have an offsite with

some people and they're going to come up with a topic. >> Oh god. And I thought oh no.

That's like I want to be a rock star so I don't know how to play an instrument. I haven't written any songs but and it's

like no no. So it's like I think the key is do you have something to say that you feel so passionate that you've already

been thinking about and talking about and working on by the time you write it you're just giving people something real

>> that writing becomes easy then because I'm just putting out what's coming out. But what I've already proven it's

already connected >> and I can't it's and I'm not having to think it up while I'm writing it. Can

you imagine if somebody said just write a book about what? Anything. >> Yeah.

>> I don't You don't have to be P. Just come up with horrible. >> Oh, I I tell I tell these influencers,

we have these kids come in. They're doing all this stuff, digital influencers, and we bring them in, coach

them on media. I'm like, you know, don't write something until you can't not say it.

>> Oh, I love that. >> That's right. It has. It's just come It's coming out. Whether you like it or

not, it's going to come out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I if I can if I don't have the

opportunity to piss off a bank and cut up a credit card, I can't I got to I got to got to do it.

>> All right. Uh let's get one more audience question. Uh we were going to go right here.

>> How do you stay tethered to groundedness? Like how do you keep what's important the most important

front and center? So, you know, something that's happened recently in the in the news in the last few days

that is powerful and I think it gets treated with too much lightness and like that it's just clickbait, but the CEO of

a company got caught on camera at a concert. >> Oh, yeah.

>> With a woman that wasn't his wife. And and what I thought about that is the tragedy of that. I mean, everybody

thinks it's kind of funny cuz they commented on it and it's it's all over the internet. But I just thought about

how your faith, your mar your marriage, your family, no leader can make their leadership more important than that.

And it is so tempting. The world is going to try to draw you into worldliness.

And I I just know that that if you're not grounded and I mean I used to come home from

speeches and I'd walk in the door and the first thing people would say is Casey needs

help with his algebra and the dog threw up on the carpet. And I thought, okay, these people don't care if I just gave a

speech to people and they don't care how many books I've sold. And that is such a good thing.

And so it's really interesting how losing sight of what's really important. I feel so bad for that man and his

family, that CEO, because no one ever is glad that they lost sight of what's most important. And so, so to me, this

is just one of those things that by the grace of God, he's protected me and I'm glad. But man, I just want to tell

leaders, never think that your reputation or your accomplishments and and when you know God and you know, you

know, humility is there is a God and I'm not him. So, how can I think I'm I'm special. Without that, um I was thinking

about this. There's a saying, St. Augustine said, "If you have God and you have nothing else, you have everything."

>> Yeah. >> And if you have everything in the world and not God, you have nothing.

>> That will keep you grounded. So for me, I don't know. I that wasn't very eloquent. There was all lots of points

in there, but I just that's kind of how I feel about the groundedness thing. >> I was in the early 80s. I was about 37

35. I saw successful people mess their life up.

>> And I was I I was starting to get a little not a lot, but books were starting to sell, things were going

good. And one day I thought, well, what's going to keep me from doing something stupid?

And I decided that I needed to develop a personal definition of success. Cuz here's what I found. If you don't

personally know what success is to you, the world will tell you what it is. >> Trust me,

you'll be regurgitating what they've given you. So, it took me about six months to kind

of say, "Okay, get a personal definition of success and I worked on it and I have one and

I've had it for 50 years and it's good for me. I'm not saying it should be yours at all. It's my personal

definition. I really not asking you to agree with me, but it works for me. My my personal definition of success is

very simple. Those who know me the best love and respect me the most. That's success.

>> Those who know me the best. I mean, they know my strengths. They know my weaknesses. They know what I do

well. They know what I don't well. They've watched me do all my screwy stuff. Those who know me the best love

and respect most. Let me flip that. There's something wrong with me if those who don't know me well like me better

than those who do know me well. But it all began out of that personal definition. When I found that for

myself, what I discovered was, okay, I got it now. The standing ovations, it's nice.

Doesn't really matter. Those people don't know me. They just heard a talk. When my family gives me a standing

ovation, regardless of who I am, that's a bigger deal. >> I have the benefit of having become

wealthy in my 20s and losing everything I own. And in the process of that, meeting God

on the way up, getting to know him on the way down. >> And so I got this wonderful reset about

what's real >> and what's important >> that most people don't have. It's an

unfair advantage >> because I I I was the guy in the other day in that first chapter that cared

tremendously what the audience thought. There wasn't an audience, but what other people thought.

>> Yeah. I needed somehow the affirmation of so the cars or the Rolexes or the whatever I was trying to do trying to

play that game and um then not only did I go broke but I was also broken in the process

>> and so >> and that's the key isn't it Dave it going broke is is a terrible thing to

happen to you but being broken is a wonderful thing to happen to you >> there you go met God on the way up got

to know him on the way That's it. And so it's um that did away with um to some extent

sometimes a negative point too far, but most of the time it's a positive. It did away with uh what the Bible calls fear

of man. The need to please >> the need to please. And so I just don't care what you think. It's it's

awful. >> You know, I mean it's awful, >> Dave. I've It's like I've wanted your S

Ramsey personalities will read some of the comments after the YouTube or something and it's like if you read

comments after stuff you know why some species eat their young. >> I mean it's some of the dumbest human

>> some of these people's parents are cousins. They don't they live in their mother's basement. I don't I don't you

don't need to read these comments. That's not customer feedback. This is trolling. Yeah.

>> And so my customer feedback is one thing. >> You are a soulmate. I wouldn't but it's

just >> if they literally realized how little we care.

>> Yeah. If they really realized >> the amount of calories I have burned writing a comment on someone else's work

is precisely zero. >> So it's just I don't have time. I got work to do. So but

>> I'm building a wall. I cannot come down. >> I cannot come down. But the uh I and I, you know, I should care more about to a

degree what people think. I mean my wife's like, "Are you gonna wear that?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'm actually gonna wear

this." No, I was just trying these clothes out, practicing them. I'm gonna put them back on. Now, you're going to

tell me what to wear. But, but yeah, but um >> but I got, you know, I just I gave up

this need to please >> in an unhealthy way. And and and I'm self admitting, I'm being honest right

now, probably sometimes even too far. I really, you know, somebody's angry at whatever life goes on. It's just,

>> you know what makes you credible in that though is that you said I mean that you once had it cuz see it's human nature.

It's a fallen nature that makes us think we're supposed to please man. >> Yeah.

>> But that's where the crashes come from. >> I'm trying to please someone else other than God. And so that you know when you

just want to make sure the the dog and the kids and the wife are happy, everybody's good and that's all you care

about then all of a sudden that's I guess they call that grounded. I don't know. Yeah.

>> I mean, you know, when I go to dinner with you and shar you and Margaret and, you know, you guys are over at the house

having dinner, you know, we're hanging out, man. And it's not there's not a in there like somebody's, you know, nobody

had to lay out some kind of red carpet thing or something. No. Oh, Pat's coming over. Oh my god. You know,

we don't have people in our house that have to do that. I don't want them over there. They bother me.

>> No, it's so true. Good stuff. >> I love that. Do you know this guy, Craig Rochelle?

>> Oh, yes. So, here we go. World class leader. Hey Dave, John, and Pat, I um I look up

to you guys. You're uh all three heroes of mine uh and very close friends. And so because of our close relationship and

because of my admiration for you, I wanted to ask you the very very important question. There's a lot riding

on this. So gentlemen, can you tell me if um Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell, and Pat Lion all started a business together,

who would be the CEO and who would be the first to get fired? >> That's so funny. That's so good.

>> And he I did not put him up to that. I said, "Send me some." So there you go. >> He should have been here in this panel.

>> He should have. So But you got to answer it because he's got to see the answer. So, who's the CEO and who gets fired

first? >> First to be fired. I don't play well with others.

>> Well, the funny thing is though, I was going to say he'd be the CEO >> because

>> he's bossy. >> Well, yeah. >> He He would be the self-declared CEO.

You he'd walk in and tell us, you know, I'd look we'd look at said, "Who said he was?" You know what I'm saying? But he

would tell us right up front. He said, "I'm the I'm the CEO." Now, >> I think that's true. Here's where we're

going. I'm going to cry because you're going to be the president that got hired that you fired.

>> Yeah, that's exactly right. >> Okay. You are you in agreement that Dave is the CEO? I think so. I think so.

>> You would declare it >> cuz like one of the things about John is like John always was he was always like

I'm going to put Mark in charge or and I'm going to let you do that. I want to do the things I love to do.

>> No. No. I I would like to be the >> I didn't ask Craig his opinion. Uh but All right. So, who's the first one to

get fired of this group? >> See you. [Laughter]

I think I would be I was going to say I I I would be cuz Yeah. I >> You think it's you?

>> Well, for the same re, you know, like >> Oh, no. I think you're >> Well, what would you do to get fired?

That's the >> Yeah. Huh. >> I mean, how do you get fired from this

company? I don't know. >> Well, not if you're the CEO, I I don't think I get fired as much

because you like the rebel in me. >> Yeah. >> So, I don't think you I don't think I

get fired with you as a CEO. I you know because I mean you you love the >> and you like when people push back on

you that's >> you like the kick. So I like the reason you tell Craig we made him the CEO

because he knew we knew he wouldn't fire us cuz he likes us. Great answer. >> That's why we made him know he knows how

to corral a bunch of rebels. >> That's exactly right. Totally. That's exactly it takes one to know one and

he's one and the law of magnetism. You attract who you are not who you want. So he tell you tell Craig he's the CEO and

neither one of us got fired but we're firing him for >> tell him because I'm an enabler.

>> I can hardly I'm going to call him on the way to the plane. >> Get him on the phone right now.

>> We probably should get him on the phone and to deconstruct his question. But he thought he was very happy with himself I

think on that. >> He was kind of he's kind of puffed up. I saw he works out. That's what

>> that's right. That's what it is. All right. I love that. So fun. Okay. Um let's talk about uh failure.

Uh there's so much John I think you wrote >> failing forward

>> the Bible on it. Uh such a fantastic book but there is the fear of failure and then there is responding to failure.

You guys can take it anywhere you want but I just I think we would all do well to hear some thoughts on on how to

handle it uh how to process it guard from it whichever way you want to go. I lived my life to avoid failure, which

was a bad way to live. You want to live for love of something, not from fear of something. And uh I came to realize

later in life that I was really just running from failure. And I it started when I was a kid, really young. And so

often times we get these wounds when we're young where we feel like we're defined by what we do and the outcomes

and things like that. And that can actually spur you to great success. Some of the best athletes

every time they go out to play it's just like they're so terrified to fail and that's not a good way to live.

>> Yeah. >> It's great to like I love playing this game and I would love to win and if I

fail I'll get up and play again but living to avoid failure is a really bad thing. And you told that story about

experiencing that failure and working through it is a beautiful thing. M >> so um I've kind of come to learn that

recently that not to fear it and to realize that my my reputation or my my worth my identity is not in

accomplishments but in that I'm a child of God. I learned that later in life. I'm glad I learned it now. I hope people

can learn it early in life. >> Yeah. You know, Dave mentioned uh about going broke,

and when he said that, I I thought to myself, um we should always keep

success and failure close together. And yet our culture

separates them. What's the culture say? Succeed, don't fail. Do it right, don't do it wrong. And they they make it poles

apart. And I look at this and I say that's not reality. >> My successes and failures aren't poles

apart. It's not like I have four days of success where everything is good and then I have two days of failure where

everything is bad. Every day I have hits and misses. I mean it it's it's not like they

separate them. So let me pull that out for a second. Here's what I think. I think they belong together. I talked

earlier about seven questions I ask at in my learning lunches. And one of the questions I ask is uh tell me the most

important lessons you ever learned. And I've asked this question for over well I started asking this question in

my 40s. So for 35 years I've I've had a learning lunch every month. I have them monthly. So I've had hundreds of people

I've had learning lunches with. When I ask people, tell me your the secret or the or or the most important

lesson you ever learned in your life. Every time they have failure included in it.

>> I I've never had a person tell me about the most important lesson I ever learned in life that didn't have failure in it.

Isn't that interesting? With hundreds of people. So all of a sudden I it hit me. The most important lesson, the

life-changing lesson has to do you got failure in it. So keep them together. But here's why I think you have to keep

them together. If you're on a roll and you're really doing some good stuff and you got the

mightest touch and you're successful, you need to keep failure right beside that success

because that'll give you humility. It it it won't allow you to get carried away with quote how good you are.

If you're over here in the ditch and you're failing, if you'll keep success right beside your failure,

it'll give you resiliency. You know, someday when I'm emotionally mature,

fear of failure is going to come up in my face and I'm going to have proper perspective on it that it's not going to

kill me. I'm getting closer. >> Yeah. >> Than I used to be. Used to I would panic

every time. I'm gonna I'm But you don't die from it. The only thing The only thing you die from with failure is

skydiving. >> Yeah. Oops. Oops. >> Otherwise, you're not going to die from

it. >> No, that's good. >> Um I mean, the rest of it just hurts.

Rest of embarrassing. The rest of it is shaming. Um and what was I thinking and I shouldn't have done that and why did I

allow that? And so once I get all that stuff, I'm going, okay, yeah, but the other options sit on the bench. Yeah,

that's not a good way. >> I don't want to sit on the bench. That's not right. If I'm gonna be in the game,

if I'm going to be in the game, I'm gonna throw some interceptions. That's right. If I'm be in the game, if I'm

gonna be in the game, I'm gonna drop a ball if I'm going to be in the but I'm also going to get some touchdowns.

>> You can't get touchdowns on the bench. >> So, I might as well be in the game. So, you know, it's what your book, Failing

Forward, is, you know, so I try to change my inner narrative on that if I can. Uh, and I don't always do it. I'm

sitting here, but I do it more than I used to do it. And it's like, okay, I didn't fail. I'm experimenting.

I figured out a way that doesn't work. I figured out a way I don't want to do that again. It hurts. At least pain. And

pain is a freaking thorough teacher. I mean, you won't do it. Very thorough. You won't do that again. I mean, you

just you >> don't forget that lesson. >> Yeah. I remember when we were at the

bottom. I was sitting in my recliner about 4:30 in the morning crying and going, "Okay, God, get me out of this.

Get me out of this. I made a stupid mess. Would you please clean up my manure?" Which he does not do. He's not

that. >> But I'm sitting there and I open up my Bible and it's Romans 5. It says,

"Rejoice in your suffering." And I went, "No, >> no, thank you."

>> Totally unreasonable. >> It's complete. Why are you bringing this up now?

>> Because suffering produces perseverance. And perseverance character and character hope.

>> There it goes. >> And hope is a gift of the Holy Spirit. And so the failure creates the suffering

obviously. And I'm going to rejoice in that. I'm going to I'm going to say that's an experiment that didn't work.