Future of Urban Buses: Redesigning Public Transport for Indian Cities

Welcome to yet another version of  the, uh, episode of the OoruLabs   podcast, uh this is episode 3 where we talk  about the future of urban sustainability.   uh we will check out hot topics trending news in  the areas of urban transport waste energy water  

and more importantly the new digital economy  and its implications for urban living so we   did one last week about the AltiMo platform so you  would have heard about that but we'll talk about   bus today because we covered the bus Fest campaign  in our sea farm newsletter so if you haven't  

seen the cfam newsletter do check that out at  cfam.substack.com it comes out every week Thursday   Friday ish we do a lot of non-motorized and bus  and a little bit of walking cycling and many   other topics are covered in that we try to gather  as many information as possible but the bus Fest  

campaign was interesting it was organized by Urban  Works Institute headed by Shreya Gadepalli who's   with us today welcome Shreya fantastic to be  on this um thanks for inviting me yeah thanks   for being on a very fledgling podcast I think  there are only three people who are subscribed  

so hopefully after you come on board there will  be more people listening to the bus I haven't been   sharing it out very wide anyway but Shreya has  been working in the sustainable Transportation   space for more than a couple of decades and  a lot of knowledge around the bus because uh  

I think definitely a couple of decades right here  yeah about two and a half decades but I would I'm   learning every single day I think you said I read  somewhere I don't remember this but I think you   started out by building a bicycle or something  like that is that true? a tricycle uh or oh  

tricycle Rickshaw uh so I started my professional  life back in the late 90s with the redesign of uh   The Humble cycle Rickshaw which is quite common  in North Indian cities not so much in South India   um and even in the north it was losing patronage  despite being a quote unquote sustainable vehicle  

but truth be told us and people don't really care  about sustainability they care more about other   things like comfort and how uh and quality of  life and so the goal here was can we transform   the cycle Rickshaw into a more sexy form of  Transport I don't know whether that's a word  

that your audience is like or not but the goal is  can we make cycle rickshaws nicer more attractive   um for passengers such that they attract  new patronage and also in the process   take the cycle rickshaws easier for the  driver to write uh the cycle rickshaw uh  

often called pullers because they literally  they literally have to get off the cycle   Rickshaw and Pull and we wanted to make  a cycle rickshaw which was easy to write   for the cycle rickshaw driver as well and what  came out of that project uh starting in 1998 were  

multiple editions of new designs which eventually  were kind of standardized and we trained small   scale Industries in cities across North India  and today there are over half a million of these   cycle rickshaws modern cycle rickshaws which are  operating in in Delhi Agra Mathura Jaipur multiple  

cities across the northern bent providing clean  transportation but also comfortable transportation   to Citizens and it's obviously sort of change  the track of cycle rickshaws where they were   going down in terms of patronage usage they went  up in a significant way and if you see in Delhi  

uh many Metro stations this is the last mile  connectivity for a lot of people right right but it's very interesting that a design change  can lead to so much of difference in adoption so of course there weren't any electric stuff  then and I guess you just worked on the seating  

or something what made it more yeah the uh the  seating was the biggest difference for passengers   the seats were lower than the traditional cycle  rickshaws they were wider more comfortable so it   was easier to get into the rickshaw sit in cycle  rickshaw there was space underneath the seat for  

it to accommodate luggage if you're especially  going to say the railway station or a bus station   or wherever it is or coming from shopping um and  uh the the whole rickshaw itself was uh at least   a third lighter than the older rickshaws which  meant that it was easier for the driver to pull  

the frame was tubular which meant that it was less  flex uh and hence less energy required to just   overcome the flex of the vehicles so in in it was  a win-win situation and the most interesting here   was that these these new rickshaws cost the same  as the old rickshaws but of course costed just  

about 10 percent of the old rickshaws in terms of  maintenance and that's because it was little there   was a little more parts or the old rickshaw had  more parts it was typically just nailed together   using wood and not very good quality wood uh  and therefore there was a lot of repair that  

was required uh very frequently while these newer  rickshaws had fewer Parts uh the frame was more   robust and therefore it required less uh repair  very interesting how did how did he move to the   bus then how long have you been working on the bus  yeah so this is like a standard joke in my family  

that you know I keep progressing from one vehicle  to the other so I went up some stuff to the bus   yeah just because it's a bigger box right as in  fact it's a form of public transport if you will   um informal public transport and bus was the  next form of public transport that I moved into  

and this was the time when uh you know very  interesting things were happening in Latin   America Bogota had just launched TransMelenio  Transit uh many cities in the world were kind   of looking at it and uh you know the goal that  we had and uh of of this International Network  

that we had was can we have a bus rapid transit  system in every continent and I was sort of this   evangelist for Bus Rapid Transit starting in  around 2002/3 going around doing Road shows   for why Indian cities should have that type of  Transit I remember we did so over a dozen such  

uh workshops in cities across India like in Delhi  uh Jaipur Hyderabad Ahmedabad Chandigarh like a   whole bunch of cities that we went to and showed  what's possible and interestingly a few cities uh   sort of caught on even the Ministry of Housing  and Urban Affairs which was called back then as  

Ministry of Urban Development a key officer there  uh one Mr OP Agarwal got very interested and there   was a big National program that started out of  it through the national urban renewal mission for   Bus Rapid Transit and 11 cities were taken on uh  for piloting Bus Rapid Transit and I worked quite  

closely with quite a few of them starting with  Ahmedabad but also Surat Rajkot Indore Pune Pimpri  to sort of guide them on what uh best what a  best practice in Bus Rapid Transit would be   where did that go really you see now the new  kid on the Block is the Metro what do you think  

has happened and is there a shift are they  still interested did that did that just good   but what is the state what how is the  bus being treated in India really now   um unfortunately we've missed the bus right  figuratively literally well even though fake  

imminent sense and it was great that at  least under the national urban renewal   Mission there was a big push for buses and Bus  Rapid Transit both of them uh so first Bus Rapid   Transit actually uh starting in around 2006 but  around 2009 onwards there was also a big push for  

uh having new Fleet come into Indian cities  through a bus program uh under the Ministry   of Housing and Urban Affairs back then called  MoUD or Ministry of Urban Development and that   was I think a fantastic start uh we had over  20 000 new buses come into Indian cities this  

was like a big uh impetus for improvements  in buses obviously not everything was rosy   like some cities did better than others uh you  know there are many Indian cities where you just   don't have buses surprisingly you know you have  cities that are million sized and have no buses

you know sometimes even two million size cities  have no buses or sometimes informal services   with mini buses and such but you know that's the  truth uh in Indian cities you would be surprised   that uh you know the total number of formal  Urban buses that are operated in India  

it's just marginally more than those  operated in the city of Beijing all over India which is Delhi Mumbai Kolkata  Chennai Bangalore Hyderabad all these cities   like and more together right together have just  a little more which is about 35 000 buses and  

Beijing has close to 30 000 buses in operation so  it's bizarre that we have so few buses in India   uh and a lot more needs to be done yeah but why  is it pitted against something else why can't it   be you have trains but you have buses right  you have absolutely absolutely right so BRTS  

is one thing it's on a fixed line and you have  a determined road but the bus I tend to think   would definitely have far more reach right I mean  you always say there's the last mile this last   minute I'm sure the bus last mile is a lot better  than a train Last Mile for anyone right why do  

cities treat it like this why do cities treat  the bus is it infra dig is it looking like uh   what is it? um so multiple things here and  then first of all you're absolutely right uh   there are very few cities in the world which  have actually more passengers on train than buses  

uh if you take London like London had the first  underground in the world as one of the largest   networks over 400 kilometers in the core and if  you look at the extended uh uh London greater   London then it's over a thousand kilometers  yet the buses which are there in London have  

more passengers daily than what the rail  does now I'm not trying to quit bus versus   real but the fact of the matter is buses play  a very critical role in cities Transportation   longer trips oftentimes are more convenient on a  rail but medium to short distance trips are much  

more convenient when it comes to a bus plus  bus also acts as a very good complement to a   metro rail so you know the whole idea that a bus  is just a feeder to a rail I think is misplaced   buses are a standard owned transport mode  and we should be seeing them as a complement  

rather than as being just a an extension to  Metro where Metro is primarily right why is   that because everybody I seem to say that I need  a I need a bus service to this Metro most of the   bus records seem to be I need a bus request I need  a bus route to the Metro that is nearby it doesn't  

seem to be in the people's mind the bus is looked  upon like a Last Mile and I don't think that is   efficient of a bus to do the last minute I'm sure  the EPKM will be sorry the earnings will be lesser   if they do last minute right that's right and  I think you know there's a role for Last Mile  

and a role as a standalone service so  if you look at Mumbai which I think   amongst Indian cities has actually had good  integration between Bus and Rail so not the Metro   as a Metro the new kid on the Block but Mumbai has  had a very well functioning local train service  

um and the BEST buses and the local trains  actually have quite good integration you   have very easy access as soon as you get out of  the rail station you can actually get into a bus   it's one of the first things that you actually  see to get into and a lot of people actually use  

this as a complimentary service if you will now  unfortunately the same thing has not happened in   other cities and certainly not with the Metro not  even Mumbai Metro for that matter uh somehow Metro   is seen as being something separate and even if  buses are to be run oftentimes Metro thinks about  

running its own feeder service and I don't quite  understand why that's the case because many cities   especially the larger cities like Bangalore Delhi  Chennai all these have fairly well established   bus services which have been there for a very  long time and there's no reason why the two of  

them should not be seen as being part of one whole  rather than as two separate systems where one is   um you know subservient to the other if you will  or you know as doing a a part role under something   else right and that's the imagination that we have  yet it it would surprise many of your listeners  

that in a city like Chennai which has built its  first phase and is building now a second phase of   Metro so the first phase of Metro which was which  is about 45 kilometers uh was built at significant   expense close to about 25 000 crores uh has been  serving only about one lakh passengers a hundred  

thousand passengers a day as against the bus  services which at least pre-covered were doing   close to 4 million trips 4.4 4 million right  it's 40 lakh trips every day so and yet the   bus is seen as being lower and it's almost as if  it's like the Indian caste system yeah buses are  

the lowest of the cast and Metro is right on  the top right I know what you're saying I do   the things on cycling and I know how exactly  it feels but that's what is so okay what is uh   preventing people from what is the attitudinal  thing right is that they view the bus says okay  

we have arrived there is this fancy Metro it is  flashy it takes me it goes faster uh what's the   uh do you do you think if let me ask you this  do you think more people will take it if the   bus just went free if you met the bus free would  that be a reasonable thing to do that's a very  

good question to ask and probably yes and  even if you were to look at part examples   of that for example Delhi went with free buses  for women and that's an excellent example of how   it was an investment into social change and  more women were now able to take buses that  

made them you know able to reach uh education  reach opportunities much more easily because   past was no longer the obstacle for them to get  wherever they needed to go and I think we should   consider something like that and we don't we  shouldn't be thinking about public transport as  

profit making but instead as something that is  doing a social serve as as a social transformation   program if you will not a social service right  but really a social transformation program   um and I think yes but also think about  this I think buses have an image problem uh  

and that is hurting buses uh Metro on the other  hand has a very sexy image everybody wants to   have a metro irrespective whether they want to  use it or not I know right the fancy thing is   here the fancy thing is here right and you know  my city has a Metro even though I may never use  

that Metro you know so even the car folks are very  proud of a Metro but no car person is ever proud   of buses in the city or very few if you wish is  proud of buses so we need to change that image   of buses as well how will how will making it free  actually solve the problem you look at the car  

person he's anyway probably a large percentage  of them are not going to get into the train into   the bus they prefer the train yeah but yes I  understand that fact but if you come back to   saying um making it free let me give a counter  argument you know the fiscal conservatives will  

come and say okay what does a bus cost like one  crore and let's take a 10-year span of a bus what   would the total cost of Maintenance and Fuel and  everything be if you're using a diesel bus maybe   two one of course you think yeah so the cost of  the bus actually is the is only a part of the  

full story right as an uh cost of the bus uh over  the lifetime is only about half yes but so your   numbers are right about two and a half crores yeah  of course per bus and let's say a city now we have   around 8 000 buses in Bangalore for example and  let's say we need 14 15 000 you have to add let's  

say 50 more bus that's uh two and a half times  four that's around six thousand crores you think   yeah so we are talking okay ten thousand buses  would be 25 000 crores right and half of that   would be fifteen thousand course you add another  half to that so that is the amount you spend over  

a lifetime of 10 years on a bus most people  would say is that something that is probably   three months of GST collections for a State like  Karnataka right it's not even it's not even that   much it's not really expensive to buy these  buses and run them free but the danger would be

would would that get people to treat it for  granted would the service quality start getting   lower what is the state capacity to keep the  service quality as a service and I don't know   how many of the Cities you think have done  that it seems to me that everybody has to pay  

sure so let's look at it this way uh you know  what is it that uh a car user or a two wheeler   user is paying a car or two wheeler user pays for  the vehicle and for its operating costs like fuel   but pretty much doesn't pay anything in terms  of uh the road infrastructure that they're using  

the amount of Road space that they consume now  immediately somebody who does own a vehicle would   say I paid Road tax but ask yourself how much  that road tax is right and it's pittance right   and then you're paying somewhere in the range of  about 30 to 60 000 rupees for like depending on  

the city where you are for an uh an average uh  like a commonly used vehicle type if you will   which covers nothing in terms of the cost of uh  the road space that these vehicles are consuming   and the parking space that they're consuming  right I think that's even more important note  

if you were to actually you know  oftentimes give this example   there isn't enough space on our streets for all  the vehicles which are coming on the road to   be parked so you obviously need this parking  to happen off Street which means it needs to  

happen in multi-level car parking in a parking  structure now there's absolutely no reason why   this parking structure uh should be free but  let's look at the cost now in each of these   parking structures you need something of the  order of what 300 square feet of rental space  

right for putting a car now this actually costs  something of the order of about 20 000 rupees a   month correct right it's 40 50 rupees or something  yeah no I'm just taking actual cost of operating   running such a facility right you know just the  rental cost of 300 square feet in City core of  

Bangalore or many of the other cities is going  to be about 20 000 rupees you know you would   get nothing less nothing for less than race per  parking spot excellent right which means that the   road tax that a car is paying would be consumed in  somewhere between one and a half to three months  

not 15 years one and a half 15 months is already  consumed so where are cars paying for the space   that they're using right cars are not and and  then now look at a comparison between buses and   cars uh you know there's ample evidence to show  that a bus passenger uses just one tenth of the  

road space of car passenger so which means that  buses or car should be paying 10 times more for   that road space than what buses are doing or in  effect the government can easily run bus services   for free if it were to start charging for the road  price for cars right right and this doesn't even  

include all the other externalities that you're  talking about the uh nothing about pollution   nothing it's just pure real estate costs right  absolutely quantifiable cost itself pays multiple   times over is what you're saying exactly exactly  so but again do you think the okay let's say for

but the point is that buses uh deserve a  lot more in terms of Road space in terms   of the finances that come in because of  the service that they're doing or the   transformative power that buses have in terms  of people's lives right do keep in mind that  

even in a city like Bangalore only about  a tenth of people are actually riding cars   90% or not and therefore we need to be thinking  about the 90% mobility and not ten percent what does making the bus free sound like a radical  idea the economics seems to be working out it's  

just that the attitude of this is free seems  to just create a mental block in people's mind   that how can anything be free if you give it free  they are just going to abuse it nobody is going to   Value the this thing there's going to be no fiscal  and responsibilities of recovering anything I mean  

look at the cost now right if we were talking  about yesterday for free so I don't know so you   know by the same argument I think you know if if  we are concerned about making process free then   I think we should first chat okay yeah it starts  working that's right for cars and Motor Vehicles  

yeah I charge them yeah charge them as per the  real estate uh I think some some cities have tried   to make some parking policies but it's a mental  roadblock in the political space is that no we are   an emerging economy yes I understand we need to  have this but hey you know what the flashy train

Metro that is coming up in cities it's not just  a metro line it's a metro line with an elevated   Road built in right that's like a combo package  let's look at cities like I'm serious about it go   to Jaipur go to Nagpur for all these cities have  metros with a separate tier for cars we have it in  

Bangalore the JP nagar line yeah you said you said  it right it's like McDonald's combo package you   go there you get the fries and uh coke free with  that all right it's just a combo uh package itself   but again like I was just thinking about the  amount of headache in trying to ask these people  

to open the data get conductors not being their  are not able to collect revenues leakage then   putting technology in place this is not scanning  that is not working then cross a lot of that   that expense is going to go away right just take  the bus run the bus come back home park it exactly  

right that cost also gets saved there's so  much around this one I mean I don't know   um is I think it depends on how the people want  to look at the bus so that brings me to this whole   attitude actually you know I'd like to propose  something else here no tell me rather than buses  

being free how about having deeply discounted  passes which are available for everyone and   depending upon your economic position maybe they  become free but what you have principally is that   every citizen essentially get and let that pass be  no more than a thousand rupees a month maybe 500  

rupees a month you know there's still a certain  value that people have because they're paying this   500 rupees but also look at human behavior you  know once you've paid that money now you feel uh   you know you feel the need to maximize  the usage of whatever you're doing right  

it's like a perfect puffy lunch or  a buffet dinner right and therefore   since you've paid for it now you're  going to ride the buses more thank you it's like the Jevon's Paradox  right the more efficient you  

make it the more you will be pushing  for more passes and I think some work more expensive for what they can actually be in  reality I realize that the European countries   have better public transport services bus train  whatever it is but they're quite expensive I  

think relatively I think India is quite cheap  right India is cheap but then also you need to   look at the purchasing power parity right and  you can't just compare a London within India   um and even in a place like London uh you  know they you know they have a brilliant  

mechanism whereby if you've ridden more than  three rides on a bus in a day you pay no more   and because it's electronic ticketing  basically you can take 10 rides   but after you've done your third ride you  basically are paying nothing more each day  

so how about a system like that where at the  at the lower end you're still make like you   know getting people to pay but if they're using it  more they're incentivized to actually use it more   uh what what do you think of getting the private  operators involved I know there are models in  

which the private operators can come in and  operate it but do you think they will do a   better job do you think some of these guys can I  don't know what's going on with I I live in you   know in Bangalore I look at BMTC and say what is  this whole uh lethargy around your services why  

are you so lackadaisical there are so many people  who can today uh benefit from there's a huge Civil   Society you guys are doing the campaigns and a  lot of us talk about the bus we're talking about   the bus and the organization has not stepped  up to the plate for the last 10 years that I  

can think of what do you think is happening there  and how do you get people out of this lethargic   um I think that's a brilliant question and  does uh is there a role for private sector   I think absolutely yes and there are multiple  models in which the private sector can come  

but and there are certain models which are better  than other models if you will in my opinion right   typically uh what government institutions  have done in the past is what is called a   net cost model or essentially a licensing model  so the government doesn't treat it as a service  

to Citizens but instead treats it as the sale  of a certain asset that the government owns   in this case the route is the asset much  like how say there is the sale of spectrum   to correct cell phone providers right so there  is this intangible thing called spectrum and uh  

the government sells the Spectrum to operators  like Airtel Jio etc etc and then they maximize   whatever they can get out of that spec and phase  the goal of the government here is to maximize its   own Revenue not necessarily maximizing Public's  benefit from it okay okay now in certain cases  

maybe it works like you know in these when when  you have very large operators like cell phone   operators you can't like not anybody and everybody  can come into that operation you need a certain   price to operate but when it comes to buses when  you're trying to do this what happens is that only  

Services where there is demand and at times when  there are demand that's when the private sector   will run the services right the private sector  here is there to maximize its profit and that's it   that's its business right as in a private sector  is not that new Social Service and therefore what  

happens is that there are certain routes in the  city which are in the core which every private   operator wants to get a hand click hand into uh  and there are certain other routes which may not   have as much demand they actually don't want to  go there and um so what happens effectively is  

that only a certain Port first part of the city  and a certain portion of the city which is peak   hours when there is high demand that's what gets  serviced but off Peak hours when oftentimes women   want to make trips uh you know uh those who might  be doing informal sector work might be making  

trips those don't get serviced or areas where the  demand is not very high it doesn't get serviced   then what happens is then you have share autos  and such which sort of operate in that space   but again they're there and there for  for a business right they're not there  

for necessarily benefiting people and  if the cost of that service is more than   the cost of operating a motorcycle or a scooter  for most people just go for it they'll just go   for a motorcycle right especially men they'll just  go because that seems like an obvious answer right  

so in my opinion the fare of the bus should be  half or less of the marginal operating cost of a   motorcycle not even equal to because there has  to be a certain benefit like you know a clear   magnet that attracts people from a fair  perspective if you will now this isn't to say  

that you need like there also has to be quality  now if you want both quality and a low fare the   only way that can be done is when the government  steps in especially the state government steps in   uh to make sure that such a service exists and  so there needs to be a mechanism where there is  

a viability Gap fund that is put on the table for  a private sector to operate these services and one   of the better models in my opinion which does this  is what is called the gross cost model or where   the government is taking the service of a private  sector operator so the private sector operator  

has no operating risk they are providing their  bus they are providing their driver and they're   getting paid per kilometer to operate their bus on  a certain route that is planned by the government   and so here the government takes the onus of  ensuring that there are services at all times  

of the day in all parts of the city the frequent  etc etc which means that they are ensuring that   people have Mobility rather than saying I will  just get earn money out of selling a license   right it makes a lot of sense the revenue  downside for the operator is not there and  

hence you can have service level agreements  with them and say Hey you have to carry so   many people the Quality quality levels can be  actually maintained right and this has been   done in other cities like you know in Ahmedabad  starting with Janmarg and then subsequently even  

in regular city bus services uh this has  become the standard operating model uh and   the government of Gujarat actually has a very  interesting scheme called the CM bus scheme   where the government gives uh you  know presently one uh one quarter  

of the operating cost or half of the viability  Gap is given by the state government to Cities   wow that's good to start putting such models  in place right you know put also the risk if   you take the risk away from the private operator  and if you also take the risk away from the city  

right the agency which is operating it might  be the municipal Corporation in certain cases   like Ahmedabad that might be BMTC or in case of  Bangalore which is still a state operating entity   but take the risk off but monitor the quality  service quality levels right I don't know if  

they still have that capacity internally to  monitor the service quality maybe they do so   I don't think it's bmtc's job here so you need a  separate entity and I think bmlta in bangalore's   case is an excellent agency which can be the  monitor now so give bmlta the money and BMLTA  

monitors BMTC but also other private operators  whether the service quality is maintained or   not and then they get the viability Gap fund for  maintaining that quality right as an essentially   they get paid per kilometer irrespective  whether it's bmtc or a private operator  

they just get paid per kilometer for  maintaining certain operating quality   so the root contract isn't given out by bmtc it is  given out by bmlta parallely to BMTC contract at   all the contract is only for hiring uh a bus with  a driver and getting paid per kilometer for the  

operator so what is the role of the BMTC there the  role of the bmtc is as one of the many operators   in the city they can be private operators and  public operators if you will but awesome the   alternative of course is that I think there's an  extra it's extremely important that the monitor  

needs to be separate from the operator yup I agree you cannot be both the operator and be monitoring   yourself, we know obviously why its  wrong. Its like the steering and   rowing cannot be done by the same guy cannot be done by the same guy exactly  

it's like the lawyer and the judge  is one of the same you can't yeah   so most of these services are now being consumed  by the lower income group there is you talked   about this attitudinal issues there are quite  a few the youngsters seem to be going away from  

this for some reason you know it's because the  Metro is funny I I take all of these I have taken   the bus I've taken the Metro but what's this new  crop feeling about the bus where are you thinking   the bus image is going to change is it in the  governance is it in the people or where is it  

going to change and where do you think the maximum  bang for the buck is literally so we don't miss   the if even if you miss the bus we're catching  another one how do you think we go into that   the young people is there is that something that  what they care about is whether they're getting  

to wherever they're getting in like on time in  Comfort right so what we need are buses everywhere   that go wherever you want whenever you want reach  on time and in Comfort this is what people are   looking for especially the Young Generation that  we have right the question to ask is if we can  

create a world-class Metro in a Delhi Bangalore  Hyderabad Chennai whatever why can't we create   a world class Metro Bus what what does it look  like a Metro Bus essentially and so and I think   looks like having dedicated lanes having  fantastic buses and I've seen some of these  

four e-buses like switch which have come into  Bangalore but also after cities so imagine your   entire fleet is air-conditioned electric buses  which are running just zooming past on dedicated   corridors everywhere in the city getting in and  out of the bus is like a Metro right where there  

are no steps that you literally go from the  platform to the bus all of it is possible it's   just a marginal cost but at a fraction of the cost  of a Metro you can create Metro like experience   in every Indian City I think that's what we  need I mean and that's what people Aspire for  

so presently no one like not the Young  upwardly mobile young or the poor Aspire   for the bus no one aspires to the bus right  the poor are using the bus because that's the   only means that they have available and the  upwardly mobile are looking for alternatives  

can we change that can we make buses desirable how do you plan how do you think you can do  that you launched this bus fest or uh whatever   what is this but I think essentially the bus  for us uh initially because it's essentially  

you know the the a step in that direction  of changing the image of the bus of where   you show that future of what is possible and  attract the attention of especially the Young   to get them to then say I love this but it's not  there give this to me because this is what I want  

no so visualize and the service that you want to  get into and then go and ask because I don't see   the current crop of Administrators even thinking  about the bus at all it they seem to be even worse   informed on this but uh of course you're looking  at faster corridors which are definitely required  

but it also the flexibility of the bus is getting  out of that Corridor and getting it okay right if   it's like a it's a win-win situation where you  need dedicated car where where you're stuck in   traffic your own dedicated corridors but the  bus is not stuck like a Metro on a track it  

can get out wherever you want to provide that  last mile connection literally to your doorstep   so it is both the trunk and the feeder I think  this is something that we have to visualize and   show people how that works because I've seen it  work uh there's a tram line in Stockholm which  

I used to take and the buses used to share  the tram line against the road and it's the   so the share and and then get off the timeline  when you get somewhere else and then go inside   so you get corridors where it is you can get  off and go on a normal Road the flexibility is  

just amazing it's just that probably like  you said we need a more aspirational bus we need to merge two ideas here which is  the quality and the reliability of a metro   with the flexibility of a motorcycle hmm  definitely close enough close enough right and  

then not exactly to your doorsteps it's extremely  important that we have excellent walking because   that is the real Last Mile and unless we create  fantastic walking facilities I don't think public   transport is going to take off neither Metro  nor buses and walking not necessarily just  

foot paths it could also be shared streets  and things like that where all combinations   walking safe and fun right right this is amazing  this has just been so insightful in terms of how   people think I don't think people get to listen  to this and understand maybe we should do one  

more session a little later in Deep dive  into visualizing the bus a little more and   and kind of talk about a little more of the model  I am just very disappointed with the lethargy of   the authorities the bus transport authorities and  I think one of the things you said I take away is  

which is try and even out this field get people to  have passes based on their socioeconomic now it's   possible with technology and upi and whatever else  right you can you can understand who should be   given what that's what it was supposed to do the  direct benefit transfer or whatever it was give  

them those passes get some nice operating models  and don't just get hung up on one agency and try   and broad base that right and you need a neutral  that's the other thing you need a neutral body who   is not wasted in that to be able to make these  decisions you don't want bmtc to be making the  

decisions because then they're just another player  and they're going to tweak it to what they want uh   and I think the larger interest of people are at  stake the the urban Mobility scenario has to be   saved by the bus and more and more the people  start real I think the fanciness might wear  

off when you think of the Metro after a while  you're like yeah there have been situations   in other countries where a Metro has become  something like the local train if you will   I know I've heard of New York metro subway Jokes  which are literally like uh you know they don't  

treat it very well but of course that culture  is more they they prefer the car they would   diss anything that is public transport and yet New  York New York has singularly more trips by public   transport than the rest of United States really  otherwise that City would have been dead right  

by now exactly right look at Tokyo look at Tokyo  24 million 36 million people in the greater metro   area and look at how they of course they have  a lot of trains yeah uh but they do have buses   I think somewhere uh I hope let's come back and  talk about this a little more uh because it's been  

extremely insightful uh Shreya thanks for spending  the time today to help explain this thing I hope   more people can listen and understand let's Deep  dive into something else when you get a chance take care yeah bye-bye

uh