The ceiling is just doesn't exist for poker. Like you're just going to lose a lot.

>> Um now reaching the top feel as good as you thought it would when you were chasing it?

>> No, I don't think so. [music] >> What's the hardest? Um learning to get there or staying

>> I think stay staying there is harder. >> The first thing that came [music] to my

mind is uh that I hated playing against you. >> I didn't like seeing you at the table

either. >> [music] >> All right, Stevie, welcome to the

podcast. Let me say this right away. Um, when I was thinking about the introduction, the first thing that came

to my mind is uh that I hated playing against you. Uh, I think we have a long story of playing sitting goals together

against each other. >> Yeah. So, um, when I would think about who I did not want to have on my table,

it was definitely you. It was always very hard to find leaks and I always the hypertobos, the tobos was some epic

times back in the days on on poker stars battling each other. So, yeah, it's fun talking to you today. I'm really looking

forward and thank you for taking the time. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, it was

a it was a long time ago. We played so many sit and goals. Uh I I can echo what you said. I didn't like seeing you at

the table either, especially the hypers. I think you you had an edge there. I think uh I was I just never quite got

the hang of the of the hypers as much as the turbos. Um and you seem to have incredible results at those uh 300s,

500s. >> I was I was not doing bad. Yeah. But I think if I remember, you already playing

tournaments at this time, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, I was doing both. So, I was just 24/7 sitting goals. Every spot I

review, it was hypers and shorts and looking what to do with seven six big blinds. And I I actually got a lot of

inspiration from those other crazy bastards that were playing these satellite what was like 10 big blind

starting stick. Uh they were firing these. >> Oh yeah, those ones I was I was not very

good at I don't think. And there was this guy, what was his name? Who was just crushing them? Um,

>> George. >> George. George. >> Yeah,

>> I saw his graph and my graphs and everyone's graphs looked like this. And his graph was just he was just grinding

satellites. >> And I'm not sure if this story is true, but someone told me he developed some

sort of tool. He's like a math genius. And he found out that you just have to be uh incredibly loose when you're about

to lose your food equity. So you just push ridiculously wide >> um because the blinds increase every

minute or every 2 minutes. So you go from 10 big blinds to seven big blinds or you go from five big blinds to two

big blinds. So especially the hands where you have that last bit of full equity. You just you just push whatever.

And I've seen when I started playing he would be pushing ridiculous hands like jack five off on the button for eight

big blinds which looked to me ICM suicide. But >> then what I've heard again just rumors

it never got I never met him. I never it was just people talking to me. we would exchange our experience and they would

just say I've heard this guy has developed a secret tool that helped him to I guess like consider or analyze the

future game to analyze the impact of the blind increase because he clearly did something different like the graph like

this in these mega high variance games just seemed impossible to me. >> Yeah, we didn't we didn't have any FGS

type uh tools at the time, but that would definitely make sense. I I played with him a couple times at the World

Series. Super nice guy, very um >> kind of humble, quiet. Um >> a bit older than than we were. Um

but yeah, he he he crushed it. >> No. Yeah, that's that was definitely some some epic times. Uh were you

actively chasing supernova, supernova elite, or was it more for you tournaments? I add sit and goes profits

and see where it brings me or were you going for the supernova elite status as well?

>> So I started out with sit and goes >> um I didn't I mean I was playing in school and stuff like that and that they

were a lot easier to schedule in play a few sites then play a tournament session.

>> Yeah. >> Um I kind of switched to tournaments when I ran out of um sit and goes to

play basically. I kind of climbed the stakes and then I was playing the highest level. I wanted to play highest

stakes for bigger prize pools and um I was already playing like all of the the highest hidden goes that were running.

So I was adding tournament tables um and actually I was grinding a lot of um steps in the early days too. The um step

satellites >> started playing those to like every livestock. um started traveling

primarily because of those. >> Yeah. >> Um kind of fell in love with traveling

too. So I was just grinding all the steps to all the different stops. Um and then yeah, I was ob obviously getting a

lot of VPPs from that. So um when Supernova Elite came along, it was kind of uh easyish for me to to get that. I

think I got it twice in in one year and uh like three other years or so. Yeah,

>> I remember you were said on was it a podcast or something that you at the beginning you played free roles and you

were someone who was always uh correct me if I'm wrong uh someone always very competitive almost obsessed about it and

I was wondering would you say you were obsessed because you tried to prove something to yourself or trying to prove

to uh to other people or where did this obsession come from?

That's a great question. Um, I think there are multiple sides to it. I think at the at the kind of um

root level, um, why I've always been so attracted to games is because I

it's the thing that I can lose myself in the easiest. Um, I can I think I have a in general quite a high

level of like baseline anxiety. Um, or I kind of developed that at a at a young age and

uh it doesn't really get turned off by like watching TV for example. It's too passive. But if I'm playing a game, um,

I can just completely be absorbed in the game, be very present, um, and just focus on that and kind of get forget

everything else. I think that's probably, uh, one thing that really drew me to

games. Obviously, I'm I'm very competitive also. And then of course as you grow up and

you your identity starts becoming more and more um enshed with being good at a a certain

thing. Um then you do I think go there for validation and stuff like that. But I

think I think at the deeper level um yeah I'm just I'm just very passionate about games. I really enjoy them and I

can um lose myself in them like I said and they kind of uh they click well with me. They they uh my mind is um

I don't know I I I I enjoy them a lot and >> um kind of comes naturally.

>> You were talking about anxiety. Is it the anxiety of not being good enough, not belonging to something, or what kind

of anxiety would you experience if let's say you sit on the couch, you're not playing a game or you're not competing

or you're learning something or um if I'm just sitting on the couch like uh

I guess there's there's not too much to be anxious about. I guess just >> Well, then I did misunderstood. you were

talking about anxiety and the way I understood >> Yeah. No,

>> I I think most of my anxiety or my highest levels of anxiety come from like social situations um

things like recording podcasts and >> really >> stuff like [laughter] that.

>> But um but also I think I just have quite a um

future oriented um perspective. I >> I think a lot more about like >> potential things like goals or like

potential things that could happen um that wouldn't be pleasant or um things that I have to do that I don't

want to do um stuff like that. So, I think that's kind of where the anxiety stems from is like this uh this future

focus. >> And that's why, as I was saying, when I'm playing a game, um that kind of uh I

can get rid of that for for the time being and just focus on on the present. So would you describe yourself as

someone who pictures a lot of worst case scenarios in the future and you draw energy from it to trying to avoid them

or being prepared for them or how does this manifest for you? I mean, I've made big uh big strides in

overcoming a lot of it, but um yeah, I think the the repetitive thought is the kind of practicing in my head of the

scenario, whatever it is. Um if I need to um talk to someone or do something, just kind of

>> looping over it in my head um as a kind of a a pseudo practice for like when it happens. But in actual fact, it it

doesn't help in the moment and it just creates this this anxiety um beforehand. So um yeah, I've worked a lot on

releasing those uh those thought patterns and those thought loops. >> So you're more would you describe

yourself as someone who lives more in the future than in the past? >> People are stuck in the past, right? I

can't do X because this happened. Oh, that's very interesting. >> Mhm. Because I would say a lot of people

struggle more with they're still worried of the past of course but I would say most people when I would I would say

it's 50/50 for me. I'm also very often picturing things in the past. Um that's why I find it so interesting. But from

my experience also working with students, it's a lot of especially poker like oh three years ago I had this big

suckout and now I would have this bank room like can't really think like this just on a poker level and then you have

it in life, relationships, personal stuff, health, right? You have so many different areas. Uh would you would you

say there things you picture in the past and if you don't mind sharing if it gets too personal just tell me but find it

very interesting. Is it more on the poker level that you project things into the future or is it more on the personal

level like lifestyle, health or what is it that that causes you or has caused you anxiety if you if you don't mind

sharing? >> Um, mostly [clears throat] on the kind of

social level. Um, I guess as as like a as a kid, um, I didn't really feel like I fit in very very well. I was a bit

different, a bit um I think nowadays I would probably have the have an autism diagnosis or whatever. Um and yeah, I

think I kind of just struggled to understand people, understand the

um kind of unspoken rules of of social conduct and everything. And that whole um

dynamic nature of the world um is something that uh I guess I

grew up feeling quite quite overwhelmed by. >> Um and kind of carried that to some

extent into um my my later development. Um, and again going back to to the games piece of the the puzzle

again that's kind of the opposite, right? All the rules are like fully explained. Uh, everything it's very

structured. Um, so I think my my mind uh finds it easier to go to go in that direction. Um

but yeah, I mean I I still would fixate on some things in the past also. I'm not not exclusively thinking

about uh future stuff. Um I definitely f used to find it very hard to um move on from a mistake.

Um I would kind of get that stuck in my head too. >> Yeah.

>> Um at least for the day. I think I was I was always pretty good once I slept and woke up the next day of just like have

getting like back on the horse and positive mindset and back thinking about the future again.

But um I definitely could get stuck on especially on mistakes. Would you say that also in in the age of

social media where more of your plays and games because when we grinded we just grinded there was no coverage.

Nobody knew who you are, what you're doing and now all these plays and clips are being posted on social media. If you

play a big hand in Triton, it's going to be posted as a clip. I've also seen you've become more active on Twitter.

Does it also influence you? Is it also sometimes in the back of your mind that you say um you know when when when we

would play back in the days I would do an I this would never cross our mind because it doesn't exist back in the

days but now you might see oh you might be judged you might be laughed at or you know would you say that also influenced

you in a certain way that sometimes maybe you wouldn't make this crazy bluff because you know what other people think

because it's like a secondary so kind of so we have the real society in the real world and you have society on social

media that acts a little bit different. >> Would you say that also in influence you in a way or is it just for you no matter

what? Like you don't care about those trolls and comments or the way it's [snorts] being portrayed in in the in

the in the poker news media side of things. >> It depends kind of depends on my my

general mindset. I think I I've always been more concerned with um the opinions of my peers and um trying to be someone

who's respected, tough to play against. Um >> but your peers are also your

competitors, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, they are. Um but yeah, it's it's definitely different

times and of course now we have answers to questions that we didn't used to have. It used to just be, well,

everyone's everyone's out there guessing. >> Yeah.

>> So, um, and now, you know, >> don't you think we're still guessing? I mean, I mean, even if it's the

theoretically perfect answer, but is it still the right answer in this real environment against real people? Do you

really think we found the answers? >> No, I absolutely don't. But I think it's easy for someone watching Triton on

Twitter to to copy paste a hand history into >> Yeah. um

>> into a solver and or uh whatever and say, "Oh, you made a mistake." Um and [clears throat] it and people

obviously can be very very vocal about it. Um but

yeah, I think um I of course have periods of uh high confidence, low confidence, and in those lower

confidence times and yeah, I think those those thoughts do creep in a little bit of kind of how how I'm perceived or

whatnot. Um, but for the most part, I would say, um, when I'm playing poker, I'm pretty well able to, um, kind of

just focus on the decisions at hand, um, and kind of put that out of my mind. >> Mhm.

Have you ever because you were talking um, or I heard about you that you also mentioned, I mean, just the obsession

about games. Um, and I I believe that obsession, of course, it it really depends on how

you define obsession, but have you ever met someone who is on your level, like let's say very successful, maybe a

little bit below, maybe a little bit above you, whatever you how you define it, who was not obsessed about the game.

>> No, no, I don't think so. >> Obsession is important. No, at least if you want to get get too far,

if you want to be the Stevie 444, Steven Chitwick, how Yeah, I'm always I'm asking this

question myself. I don't have the answer to this. So, I always like to ask this question on Have you ever met someone

who was not obsessed on the game, at least to your level, and who made it that far? And I

>> no I mean I think in pretty much any discipline to achieve true like mastery or to be to

be amongst the best in the world you just have to dedicate such a a huge amount of time

>> to um to a pursuit. And um it's not obvious to me what the difference is between uh spending all of your time

doing something and being obsessed with it, you know, like >> yeah,

>> I guess you could be um you could be forced to do it if you were, you know, you have parents who are trying to live

their dreams through you and they're they're making you go practice tennis >> 10 hours a day and you hate it.

>> Um I guess I could see that. But um with poker there, no one's really forcing you

to play poker. So if you're if you're spending tens of thousands of hours doing it, then you probably uh you

probably enjoy it. You probably at least at some point in your life, it it take takes hold of you and uh you do become

obsessed with it. >> Yeah. And I think a lot of people confess confess confuse the obsession

with the game with the lifestyle. I think a lot of people think they're obsessed with the game, but I think

they're more obsessed with the lifestyle that poker brings than really being obsessed with the game. It's just it's

my impression of people sending messages. You read through their stories on Discord in our community and

sometimes I was just you're not really obsessed with the game. You're obsessed with the lifestyle. And I think that's a

big trap because you think you love the game, but then the down swings and the downsides are becoming so painful. And

for someone like you or me, it's easier to go through the down swings because we just enjoy the game. we're okay with

losing money or having a rough downswing for a long period of time because we see all the upsides and benefits of what the

bring game brings to us and then I just see hey man I really think you are just loving the lifestyle but that's not

really going to um make you a really good player in my opinion. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think if you

come to poker and you um your big goal is to have x amount of

money and have success and kind of you're using poker as a means to an end, um I think you're you're probably not

going to get there. But if you um I think with anything if you >> really if you want to want to get to a

very high level at something you have to enjoy the process right you have to enjoy the dayto-day

um the grind the um you know you have to look at the down

swings as an opportunity to learn and um and grow and um yeah you have to

>> yeah just en enjoy enjoy the process and yeah I don't know I I'm not talking to lots of lots of people and hearing their

stories on Discord but um I can imagine that yeah the allure of playing high stakes and winning lots of money um can

kind of trap people into um into going down that path when maybe it's not the thing they're most uh most well suited

for. Yeah, you're deep in a tournament and the money jumps are massive and you have to play post flop. This is very

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if you don't like it, within 2 weeks, you get your money back. If you take if you take two equally uh talented poker

players and one becomes um a solid low or midstakes grinder while the other becomes an absolute high stakes crusher,

what would you say are the three biggest differences between them? What allows one player to keep breaking through

while the other eventually gets stuck? Uh >> do you see do you see a pattern there

amongst your peers uh on on on high stakes and then maybe you go to WC event and you see play a $500 event or $1,000

event or you talk to friends or you see stories comments like what is what is your experience there? What would you

say? >> Well, I guess the the love of the game is a is a big um big reason, right? It's

what's going to motivate you to keep working at it when things are difficult. Um, and especially if you're playing

tournament poker, you're just going to lose a lot and you're going to have really long um down swings and long

losing periods. Um, maybe you don't have those as much playing online and high volume, but um yeah, I mean, it's it's

not going to be easy. And um I think how you how you behave in those

um difficult times is going to have a big influence on your overall trajectory as a player. Um if you get kind of

despondent and disheartened and you just want to do something else and you spend less time on poker then um

you know it's going to be hard to keep that consistent um consistent effort and consistent um work to to to

improve. Whereas, if you use it as a fuel for improvement and motivation to to work harder, then um you're going to

keep breaking through the the next level. >> So, it's

>> I know that that that was one, not three, but um >> Oh, even if

>> that's the first one that came came to mind. >> Yeah.

If you think about maybe more technical parts or the approach to the game, um, anything that stands out for you, I

really think that if someone is obsessed or let's say has love for the game, everything else will fall apart and it

doesn't matter what uh what he or she does. >> Um,

yeah, it's it's a good point. Um, I guess another another thing that comes to mind would be um

working on your own weaknesses. Um, like it's it's easy, I think, to focus on your strengths and do what you're good

at and kind of lean more and more heavily into it. Um, but I think it's you're always going to see um bigger

benefits from improving the things that you're worst at. Mhm.

>> Um and being kind [snorts] of objective with yourself and and self-critical and um

yeah, really really doing whatever you can to um

find the things you're bad at and work on them, even if that's uh an uncomfortable process.

Um I think that's a big deal. >> Mhm. at at your level and you're playing

uh mostly live tournaments I would say these days, right? How do you still play a lot online as well? Are you

>> I haven't played any online in a couple years. >> Yeah, because I don't haven't seen your

name a lot. Uh maybe you're cruising around anonymously and destroying everyone without us noticing. But

>> yeah, I've seen you mostly on live stops now, but I was wondering at your level, how much how much of the edge is,

let's say technical knowledge, right? The strategies, GTO, making the exploits and how much you think is more the soft

factors, the decision- making, the emotional control, the discipline, right? like how well you

treat your body, how good you eat, like these two areas. What do you think on your level? Um what is more important or

is it just 50/50? >> Um I think the I mean the technical side of

the game, it just has to be very high. If you're if you're playing >> if you're trying to play Tritons and

compete against the best players, you kind of >> there's a threshold

level of uh kind of theoretical understanding that you need to meet, I think. Um, and I don't think it matters

really how much meditation and yoga you do um if you if you don't have that that baseline. But above that point, I think

at the I think the big separator for the the very best players um is the day-to-day performance. How likely you

are to bring your agame, how focused you are at the table. Uh yeah, just the the level of

I don't know if intensity is the right word, but um >> concentration, focus.

>> Yeah. just kind of showing up and really being there to to fight for pots. And I think there's a lot of people who

um maybe have that level of of theor theoretical understanding quite high and they they are just kind of showing up to

collect their ROI and um just aren't as engaged. Maybe they're on

their phone more. maybe they're um not looking for creative lines as much. Um so yeah, I think I think it's a big

separator at the very highest levels. Um kind of the soft skills and that's also the the stuff that um it's harder to

study, right? Um there's it's very qualitative and intangible. Um things like how like incorporating phys

physical behavior into your strategy or um how much you're accounting for

um you know how soft the tournament is when you're deciding whether to pass up an edge or not. Um I guess that's also I

don't know if that falls into soft skills or or theory because it kind of it requires both, right? Mhm. I'm I'm

wondering because I actually experienced this a lot of the times throughout my career that I would met meet someone

incredible coach very sophisticated knowledge about theory also understanding okay hey if we're supposed

to I have to run all these aggressive bluffs in order for me to bluff catch those hands especially very smart people

they know okay it's very unrealistic hence I can just overfold the spot but and I don't know if there's any data if

this is common or it was just my experience. I had this three, four times with

pretty solid players, but they could not bring this to the top to poker table. They could not make these folds. They

would always be stuck in trying to play the perfect theory game and none of them ever made it far in

poker. maybe winning at low stakes, maybe solid midstakes, but then the the swings would be insane. And some of them

I was trying to help. It was more like poker friends of mine or also um coaches uh that are very good at teaching the

game, don't get me wrong, but they just had to admit that they can't run these exploits. And um yeah this is something

I noticed throughout my career that just because you have a deep deep understanding of the game there's

additional layer as you said you need to sit down you need to fight for the pots you need to also go that one step

further if you understand how spot is supposed to be played now you have the theoretical foundation

and you understand okay I'm playing against a tourist who's having a margarita is

having a good time you know you know what to do technically but they just they just couldn't. And this is a big

mystery to me um of is it just something they are afraid of how they might look if a play does not go well and they care

too much about other people's opinion. Um but yeah, it's uh >> yeah, I mean the first thing that comes

to mind for me and I've done a lot of um kind of mindset coaching type stuff um throughout my career. And

one thing you learn is that um you know your autonomic nervous system has these two branches. It has the parasympathetic

and the sympathetic branches. So sympathetic is kind of your fightor-flight response.

>> Yeah. >> Um and when you're stressed, your adrenaline's high, your heart rate's up.

Um it has a number of effects. Uh, one of which being the you get less blood flow to your prefrontal cortex, which is

kind of your executive decision decision maker and more blood flow to like the kind of um

more kind of emotional parts of your brain. Um, and it has a measurable effect in

how well you're able to execute um, impulse control, all of these things. So, the first thing I would think about

if you know you you know everything, you could take a poker test and and score 100% but you can't execute it. Um,

that'd be the the first place I would look is like how are you able to manage your stress in a way where you're you

can access this information that um yes, you have it in your brain, but you need to

um you need to be able to pull it out at the right time. Um, and I noticed this a lot actually in

um things like this when I'm um having a conversation with someone if I am stressed because you know maybe there's

a lot of people around or maybe people I don't know that well or I feel like I'm on the spot um and I because I've um

kind of trained a lot with breath work and stuff like that and and interception proprioception of just kind

noticing my body, I see myself becoming more stressed >> and then it's hard to find words that I

want to say. It's my my brain just feels like it's it's um >> it's blocked. It's not finding um what

it needs to find. And so I can >> I can imagine that a lot of these people who really struggle with performance um

are hitting this block because they're just simply unable to regulate their um physiological response to stress

>> um to to the degree that they need to to be able to actually um execute their what they what they know to be true.

So they're just worse at handling stress essentially in those moments of execution the way

they >> that would be my my guess as to the most common thing and then they fall back on

um >> kind of the safe play. You know they know that um

>> they know that kind of bluff catching this hand it's a it's a it's a bluff catch in theory.

Yeah, >> it's not a technical mistake. And maybe because they

um their emotional parts of their brain are more more activated, maybe they're think they're

scared that this person is bluffing them. And um or you know something irrational is um driving their decision

instead of that um kind of more logical uh executive decision maker that's the the prefrontal cortex. Do you think

someone being competitive at an early age already, let's say childhood and teenage years, might have an advantage

there where the brain is better prepared, maybe develop certain neuro pathways in a way that it can handle

stress better because I always like to go through my own experience and h this person he was a professional esports

player. This guy I also played competitively football from age seven onwards until my teenage years. Then I

got into competitive counter strike. So I'm always wondering and if I look at my friends who let's say

maybe low stakes midstakes they weren't. But most of the people who got into high stakes they were playing something

competitively in their earlier ages. I don't know. I have no idea if there's any study or

research on that if there's any correlation between someone who has been whether chess chess is also really big

for poker players right having a competitive chess background that doesn't mean to play world events

maybe just some local tournaments but just being in this competitive I have to compete for something um or fighting or

football and uh tennis tennis also in the '90s was a bit bigger in Germany than it is today so yeah I just find it

very interesting when I think about my circle of friends and trying to find a correlation, but I don't know if it's

just uh coincidence. >> Yeah, I mean, you certainly do see a lot

of um people who are high performing in something else before poker um do well

at poker. Um, and yeah, it makes sense that there's there's going to be crossover, especially with with mindset

stuff and um, handling adversity and um, kind of resilience, that side of things. Um,

>> yeah, >> you know, everything the brain's like a muscle, right? The more you practice

something, the more you train it, the better you're going to you're going to be at it.

>> Do you do something these days to keep your mind fresh, to keep your mind strong? It's like a muscle the brain,

right? >> Mhm. Um, yeah, I do a lot of things. >> Well, like which ones?

>> Um, >> I mean, more like outside of poker, I think, right? When you study poker, when

you really do deliberate studying, I think it's also good for the brain. But is there anything you do outside of

poker? >> Um, I I picked up the piano uh last year.

>> That's supposed to be very good learning instrument, right? >> Partially. So yeah, I read this book um

the master and his emissary. Uh really interesting book by a neuroscientist and philosopher who talks a lot about the

the two brain hemispheres and the the different kind of modes of attention um that they facilitate. Um, and

seeing in myself that I am very heavily kind of leftrain focused um, or have been historically. Um,

that uh, kind of influenced me to try and do more kind of brain development developmental stuff. And um, music is

one of the most heavily lateralized activities to the to the right brain. Um, and then also we just had had a

keyboard kicking around. My my daughter uh we got one for my daughter and I was enjoying playing around with it and uh

made that into a into a habit. Um, so I've been enjoying that. >> That's pretty cool. Yeah. Uh, I've I've

heard about that. I've just tried to do some like, you know, these logic questions and quizzes and tests in these

games. um learning some basic facts, just trying to um keep my mind uh also busy outside of poker because especially

these days with all the content and short form, I just sometimes feel like uh I'm losing IQ points with every year.

So trying to protect that as much as I can because it's really tempting really tempting to

>> It's so easy to get sucked into that stuff. I I tried to um >> stay away from it um as much as

possible. But uh yeah, I think things like meditation and um long form content I I enjoy enjoy more

reading or or podcast whatever and >> um you know walking getting like getting out in nature and stuff like that. Uh, I

think all of that's super beneficial. >> Yeah. >> Brain health.

>> I think it's everything. >> Yeah. It almost feels like you are, it sounds brutal, but I was thinking about

this today when I was coming here with the car. It almost feels like being in a war against this kind of content with

yourself. You just have to you have to equip yourself with certain tools and protect yourself against it in a more

let's say um metaphorical way to shield yourself. Of course it's okay to enjoy yourself from time to time and that kind

of stuff. But >> it's every day every minute you're bored, you sit on the toilet, you eat

and you always have to have a phone. It's just not good for you. And there's an interesting fact about especially Tik

Tok the way the algorithm is built that I think it's very similar. I think they even hired casino engineers to have the

same slot machine. Um, something as uninteresting, uninteresting. Oh, >> interesting content, reward, dopamine

kick, right? >> That makes you very addictive. >> H, but the the big danger I see is

>> that it's more socially accepted. If you go in a casino, your guard goes up. I think all of us, or at least majority,

most people have a little bit of a guard. They know it's gambling. They're a little bit more careful. Do I spend

money? But if you're in Tik Tok, your guard is completely down and it's so much easier to make you addictive and to

manipulate and in Tik Tok. But I think it's really bad. So >> yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[clears throat] >> Definitely uh agree with that. which which part of becoming uh elite

and I would say with playing the Tritons W's piece and all these big events that you're playing um

what would you say was it actually what's the hardest um learning to get there like the the journey to get there

or staying there? Um I think stay staying there is >> harder I would say. Yeah. Um

>> what makes >> I mean one from like a motivational standpoint, right? If you always have a

[snorts] carrot dangling in front of you um and something to strive for, something

to um to try and attain. um at least I find that easier to motivate myself to do that thing. Um

where if it's more of a um maintenance, it's a bit less engaging, less less motivating. Um,

I guess uh I'm I'm thinking about this more and and questioning my answer because I do think there is a very high

barrier to entry for playing um especially those the Tritons um because the stakes are so high and because it

requires um the trust and uh financial backing most of the time of of other people. Um, and

because there's such a high stress kind of uh pressure component to it,

it's it's hard to get the experience, I guess, that you need to uh be a a profitable player in those tournaments

without having played them already. And it's hard to play them already if you're not going to be winning in them, right?

So, um, from from that standpoint, um, I think, yeah, it's easier for me to

continue playing Tritons than for a kind of fresh up and coming player to kind of burst onto the scene.

But just from a just I guess more from from like a a motivational enjoyment standpoint. And

um for me it was it was no effort to um play poker all day, study poker all

day. Um kind of when I was coming up and rising through the the stakes and stuff like that. It was

it was just so much fun and I got uh I was getting a lot of that dopamine from kind of setting goals, achieving them,

getting higher, etc. Um, and yeah, it's I think it's it's more of um

more of an effort now. I wouldn't say it's an effort really. I don't like force myself to uh to study and things

like that. I guess I my priorities have changed um over the over time. Um

so yeah, I think I think it goes it goes both ways. There are some things that are easier about it um and some things

that are harder. >> What would you say? Did did um now reaching the top feel as good as you

thought it would when you were chasing it? No, no, I [laughter] don't think so. Uh,

>> yeah. >> I think I I think I kind of came to the

realization that um [clears throat]

that the the journey was more important than the the destination. And um over time I've worked on um

having less kind of external goals and external kind of validators and trying to enjoy more the um the day-to-day the

process. Uh because yeah I mean I don't think it's uh groundbreaking info that reaching the goals that you've set for

yourself doesn't leave you happy for the rest of your life. you know like uh >> everyone I think everyone who

strives after things and and tries to achieve things kind of comes to that realization um sooner or later.

>> Yeah. I think from at least this is for me personally after having achieved things that I'm proud of and of course a

lot of it's also winning a lot of money in that moment maybe for the day or for a couple of days you feel you're more

happy let's say your happiness goes a bit up but the let's say what what it's really not long-term happiness or

joy it's more a bit of peace of mind that you get from it that like hey you're not that bad you you you don't

suck as hard as you maybe think. Yeah. Like kind of relief, kind of like peace, but

>> then there's still you have all the things all the problems in life as everyone else. It's just you have the

tool of in this case money. It helps you fix some of the problems. But like your internal well-being hasn't really

changed at all. It's really just here and there you have maybe a little self doubts but on this level I don't know

how it is you if I have one bad session if I have a losing session I already start immediately thinking oh my god I

can't beat the games anymore and the next day I have to look up spots there's still this internal call it anxiety call

it whatever I don't know where it comes from the competitiveness having the need to prove yourself having to maybe prove

your parents that your dad is proud of yourself is proud of you but I would say this what people always think you make a

lot of money then you're happy for the rest of your life no it's just and also often a big win it's more relief it's

like okay I have a bit of peace of mind the battle is won I can go to bed I can I can rest for one or two nights but

then it's instantly like okay let's go again um I don't know if it's how it's supposed to be I don't know if it's

healthy I don't know I think that's all the battles we internally fighting uhh for but that's why I also enjoy having

these kind of conversations because then sometimes someone else says no it's completely the opposite for me and then

you have this kind of conversation I don't know how it's for you what you're feeling after a big win and how the

poker success maybe has changed you internally how you see the world how you see yourself what had the the biggest

impact on you >> um yeah I mean I think that's that's very common I think um these goals are

kind of good ways to to kind of trick yourself into working really hard towards something or sacrificing for

something. Um but you kind of won't get the long-term lasting relief from that um kind of

self-inflicted pain in a way. >> Yeah. >> Um

unless you change the belief structure that underlies it. Um I think we can quite easily find examples of people who

you know given any situation however you define success to be in an external way I'm sure we can find someone who has

that life and is depressed >> and I'm sure we can find someone who's on the who has none of those things and

is um is nevertheless very happy. Um, so yeah, I think if you want the the lasting

feelings of kind of peace and and joy, um, you kind of have to attack the the problem from a a different side kind of

on a more psychological or spiritual level. Um, and gradually over time, that's kind of where more and more of my

personal focus has has shifted. What brings you now the most peace joy outside of poker?

Um well I wouldn't say I don't know maybe maybe nature like um

doing activities that I enjoy being around people I like stuff like that. But um again more more than anything

else it's it's a mindset I would say um when I feel like I have a good mindset and all

of these pieces play a part in that. The the exercise, the diet, sleep, all of like all the boring stuff that everyone

knows that you're supposed to do. Um, but also when I'm um working on things that excite me and um all of these

things and if my my mindset is um on on top form, it doesn't really matter what I'm what I'm doing. I can find find

peace and joy in it. And if it's if my mind is not not cooperating or it's uh stuck in a loop thinking about something

um then it doesn't really doesn't matter if I'm walking through the woods or I'm laying on the beach. It's it's doesn't

help. >> Yeah. It's funny because I would describe my 20s and I think we all had

very similar 20s. It's achieving, conquering, proving and now and wanting more. whether it's learning more but of

course also the money plays a big part in it and the success and the trophies and the glory and now in the 30s it's

shifting more towards and also meeting people and getting input and learning and now I'm turning the complete

opposite I just I just enjoy being uh in nature we were now for a week in Austria and it's just just sitting on the bench

and this beautiful view I could do this for hours uh or walk in the beach and in and 20s was more and more yeah more and

more more and 30 is like I just want less less less less. I want to see less people. I want more peace. I just all of

these things you know that uh it's it has now completely shifted towards the 40s. Um which yeah it

which I'm happy I'm happy that uh such simple things just give me so much um joy. Even though I wouldn't say joy,

it's just peace. It's just peace. It's like >> Mhm.

>> just to take a deep breath, have a enjoy a beautiful view, >> also the way I want to spend my

weekends, just with good friends, a good piece of meat, a nice barbecue, maybe a glass of whiskey, that's it. and then

just talk for the entire night just sometimes we sit there you know how dudes can be dudes just don't even talk

just enjoy each other's presence and we have a fantastic evening you know and uh >> and in our 20s like where do we go like

clubbing or you know meeting girls or you just uh which I think is also normal in a certain way but uh now it's just

the simple things you know the >> yeah I think that's a very um typical and natural

life progression. Um, >> and the more I've kind of I've been very interested in um, psychology,

philosophy, these things for the last last few years especially. >> And uh, yeah, that that life pattern of

uh, kind of it's like a it's like the sun rising and then setting. It's like this start of your life. You're you have

all this energy. You're you're growing in your powers like more and more as your as the sun rises, as your kind of

life feels like it's becoming more and more expansive, um you becoming more ideally more

successful, powerful externally, etc. Yeah. >> And then it kind of goes through this

this shift where it then starts dropping down again and you become more um maybe more introspective, more um withdrawing

from the world a little bit and appreciating and um yeah, I think that's a

natural and and um perfectly fine life path. And I think Well, I I know I've I've kind of had the

same shifts in my um in my own perspectives and um

yeah, I mean I'm enjoying the different the different orientation towards life and uh enjoying some of the things that

I um perhaps had neglected on on the journey up. Um, uh, yeah, I think

you don't want to you don't want to kind of rigidly hold on to like your your old way of of being, you know? So, um, I've

been trying to trying to go with it and, um, uh, yeah, just enjoy it and and kind of

see where it takes me. >> Yeah. Why why you by the way playing uh uh so

many Triton events? Aren't there like so many better lives? I mean the best of the best are playing there in terms of

um game selection or is it just hey I want to compete against the best in the world even if let's say they're softer

tournaments but I still do it. I think I can beat them. Um do you try to find a good mix between playing against the

best while still being profitable or do you just Yeah. Um because you also made this post on Twitter. Um maybe we can

discuss this in the next question, but yeah. Um WCP, WPTs, some of the EP stops. Uh

would you say that Triton is the toughest tournament series or do you maybe think, hey Ben, I think you are

over you're over overestimating uh the toughness of the field because they're like different opinions about the

Tritons, >> right? Yeah. No, I think Triton's are very tough. You obviously have um

you have a good number of recreationals, but you also have the the best players in the world. Um

and I would say that yeah, for for me, I I really just enjoy the game and enjoy the competition and want to be competing

at the highest level. It's really not um financially motivated to me. Uh, and yeah, I guess my whole career I've

never um really put the put the money first. And

I've I've kind of neglected things like playing cash games and um kind of putting myself in spots where I

could probably make a higher hourly. Uh, I've always just kind of wanted to be doing the thing I enjoy the most. And

um, provided that that approach is going to um,

give me enough uh, kind of financially to um, to sustain whatever I lifestyle I want to sustain. like I'd rather be

doing the thing I like the the most to be making the money in the first place, even if it's uh making a bit less money.

So, um yeah, I think the Tritons for me are the most fun by far because they are they are the highest level of poker. Um

you're usually playing short-handed, you've got the shot clocks and everything against the best players. Um,

I like the fact that the I mean the the prize pools are huge. Um, which is which is nice. Um, you know,

wanting to just play play Final Tables for for tons of money. It's I think the the most fun

part of of poker for me. um the endgame stuff and um like being able to go deep in tournaments more often

because they are smaller player player pools or play smaller um fields than some of the maybe the EP kind of bigger

field stuff or or certainly World Series um and just having a really high concentration of tournaments in um in a

two week period. Um, yeah, just it takes a lot of boxes. And then just a lot of my closest friends and people who I have

been playing with for um 10 plus years um and I'm I'm quite close to that I wouldn't see otherwise um go

to those stops and um just the the overall vibe on on Tritons is uh is really fun. Um, I was we was saying

before >> we came on air, it kind of feels like summer summer camp. Like you go and you

play sports in the morning and then you play poker with your friends and then you go to sleep and wake up and do it

again. And um, of course they can be stressful, high pressure. Um, you don't get necessarily all the sleep

you would like to get or whatnot, but um, overall they're they're just super fun. So they uh what I what I

prioritize. >> Do you not have problems? Let's say you played a played a pot against someone

that you also don't like playing. Maybe it's a difficult opponent. He or she makes something like and you're a bit,

you know, like this [ __ ] And then next day you can shut it off, play bet against each other, have a good

time, and then instantly switch from professional mindset into more leisure times. Okay, it's a good friend or let's

say it's an acquaintance and or do you also have those moments where I can't see this [ __ ] right now? He just

hates me so much. [laughter] Or or how do you handle this in between the poker tournaments? No, I think I

think it's actually the opposite where if I'm playing if I know someone on a more personal level. Um, which I'm I'm

able to do with a lot more of the field playing a Triton. Um, >> and maybe we play sports together, maybe

we talk about our families or or whatnot. Like I think it gives me the perspective I need to

um have that frustrating hand happen and kind of tap the table and say well played and treated as part of the game.

And um ultimately the reason why why I love it and why um it's held my attention for for so long is because of

the the complexity and the um difficulty of it and the yeah like I said I'm I'm playing Tritons because I enjoy

the challenge of playing um at as high of a level as I can and um I need I need annoying opponents to uh put me in

annoying spots and and get the better of me to uh to create that environment. >> How do you handle playing against very

unpredictable opponents? I think especially Tritons, you have a lot of VIPs, maybe the ones who uh from my

experience, they can also be very ambitious. They can, I think, be better than we think. And then you have those

VIPs, you know, just I want to play the way I want to play the game. And this puts you in a lot of unpredictable

situations, right? Are they going to run a huge bluff now? Are they going to be tight? Maybe a little bit scared money

and passive. And this is, I think, a challenge as a poker player you need to approach. Walk us through your

thought process, how you maybe try to find little bits of information to paint a better picture to ultimately make a

better uh decision in the long run or in this very moment, especially when it's a critical tournament situation.

Yeah, that's something that um that's a challenge actually playing Tritons as opposed to maybe playing in America is

that I have just less information on on my opponents, more less of the the soft information. Oftent times they don't

speak English. Um, and you know, I don't know really anything about their situation, whether

they have a family or how well off they are or if they're playing this tournament, if they're, you know, trying

to make money or trying to have fun or obviously the more you play with someone, the more you can infer um by

the way that they play hands. Um, but it's obviously a much less direct way to to getting that knowledge. But um yeah,

I don't I don't think that it's something that's necessarily been a big strength um or natural talent of mine.

But um just using any information you do have, obviously the way they they play their their hands is the primary one.

trying to pay attention to showdowns especially um and trying to um understand like what motivates them

um what might be going on inside their head. Um, you know, obviously you have some some

of these crazy players will play crazy in the early levels and then they'll build up a stack and they'll play

actually too tight then kind of later in the tournament. And some for some of them it's more of an impulsive thing

where they get bored and they make a crazy play. Um, you know, everyone everyone's different.

Um, I think I I don't really have a kind of a method like here's the things I think about.

Um, as much as I just try as far as I can to be present and to be um, receptive to the energy of the moment.

Um, >> intuition and >> intuition. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's

something that I've actively tried to um, develop more. I definitely relied a lot more on kind of the theory side of

the game um and and neglected maybe some of the intuition. And yeah, in the in the last years um I've put a lot more

focus into trying to um grow that that intuition and and trust

it more. Um but along with that obviously comes um you have all of your inherent biases,

right? So if you want to listen to your um intuitions, I think you need to have pretty good kind of mindset. Like if you

goes back to what we were saying earlier about the these players who are stressed out at the table and um maybe their

thoughts are wrapped up with like what people are going to think or or something like this. Their feelings,

their intuitions are going to be um painted by those um those biases or those um those thought

patterns. So, um yeah, I just try to it's easier said than done obviously, but try and look at uh things as

objectively as possible and um try to perceive uh my opponents and perceive situations

without um without too much of a filter or uh I think that's one of one of the big mistakes that um I used to make a

lot, especially with these recreational players, is I had a very kind of one-dimensional approach to them. And I

kind of had them, it's like I was playing online and I labeled them, you know, they're red, they're a fish. Like

I'm following this guy around and I'm playing him >> in a certain manner. You know, I'm going

to assume that he >> is going to pay off my value bets. I'm going to assume uh I'm just not going to

bluff him and, you know, he's probably going to be too loose. or or whatever and kind of just trying to put people in

boxes and play a certain way against them. Um I I think I did a lot too much of that

and um and I I try now to have fewer um kind of pre preconceptions about how I

think someone is going to play and um >> fewer yeah and less rigid um mindset or perspective. Yeah, that's for

even the like even the the guys who are too tight for example and everyone knows they're too tight like they know they're

too tight too, right? Like they know what their image is and they're going to look for spots to use that. like the

like I think you got to give people credit for like everyone's playing this game yes with different levels of

expertise and experience but everyone's trying to play poker to like outwit people and um you know thinking

that someone's just never going to be bluffing or never not capable of using their image to bluff um I think is going

to is going to limit you. >> Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think uh the bias that you talked about that we can

also choose what we're biased to. I noticed this also with less experienced poker players, they always pick the

spots to remember to justify like some sort of comfortable play. I just had it in a

online 5k WCP main event day one. I open race you're super deep 200 big blinds queen or 150 big blinds open race queens

early position middle position three bets button cold four bets or cut off and you're already like

you just and two players you don't know them no regulars so two recreationals where the ranges are also super three

betting tight to begin with >> then the button code four bits and you just click the fold button and you're

like just don't tell tell anybody and then I don't know I played a tournament, 50 hands later, the button was on 60%

V-bip, three betted almost every second hand, four betted every situation. You're like, "Okay, the queen sport was

a terrible mistake." So you just um you know this will happen sometimes you know you make decisions and I think in this

field W 5K WCP main event day one against the population against player this player profile of someone being a

recreation in this field it's it's the long-term right decision just to hold um and or maybe to call of course you can

argue about this but going all in would just be you're just playing it almost as a bluff trying to get him four days king

right so um when you make a let's say a big fold or a big call, it will go horribly wrong one or two out of 10

times like quite often. So you have to remember try to remember the other eight times where it maybe king you fold the

three better goes all in button shows you aces and you really have to proactively trying to man like good fold

because I think the energy that stays from making this fold is much smaller than the energy of the pain that when

you fold and then MP calls and MP shows up 98 suited and button shows up king queen off and you're like and I folded

queens that pain stays longer so you just have to proactively celebrate and remember those moments where you made a

big fault where you say hey it's just the right decision long term you will get owned from time to time and it will

actually happen 10 20% of the times which is not so it's not like 1% right so

>> yeah it's just >> I mean that's that's what's so dangerous about using relying solely on feelings

intuition um when you're making decisions because your

your feelings aren't like you said, they're not proportional to the outcome. So like if you're if you're in a bluff

catching situation, someone bets half pot and you're you think he has it like Yeah, he's supposed to have it uh

threequarters of the the time. Yeah. >> And does calling and oh, he was bluffing this time. Does that feel three times as

good as as uh calling and oh obviously you had it I should have folded feels bad.

>> Probably not. Like they're not >> perfectly calibrated. So, um, yeah, that's where you need to,

it's so interesting and it I think that's why poker stays fresh and engaging for me is that ultimately there

you you can't know the right answer because yes, there's the you can you can look at it from that kind of

rangebased mathematical okay, I have to call this measure my range whatever you could you can kind of go the complete o

opposite direction and say, "Okay, this is one person with one hand and um either my hand is good or it's not, and

if I think he's got it, I should fold." >> Yeah. >> Um and how you

um balance those two approaches based on your the degree that you're confident in your reads and how you kind of tune

those. It's it's kind of the I think the art of of poker whereas the the theory side is more of the science and

that just stays forever novel and and um un unsolvable I guess like I think it the ceiling is just doesn't exist for

poker like there's there's always more levels of complexity and and and you can never know the answer. So it's

it's um [clears throat] It's always fresh. >> Yeah. What would you say about yourself

when you're in river bluff catching situations? Do you tend to focus more on the potential value combos your opponent

has or the bluff combinations? What is your first when do you what does your brain first start to run the

calculations? >> Um probably bluffs. Bluffs are the first thing that comes to mind. Yeah. Like

what they how many bluffs they have to choose from and um

like also with their sizing. Um, >> I mean it's both, but you know, someone someone

always has value bets pretty much, so those are kind of a given. And like, yeah, if they're repping very very

narrow value range, like they don't need to have they don't need to use many bluffs. And if they have tons of value,

then they get to to to bluff a lot. I think it always the answer whether or not you should call them is more coming

from okay are they pulling too many of these hands out of the bluff bucket or are they pulling not enough out of them

or do they not even have enough in there to pull out uh because of how they played previous streets. So um I think

the yeah the bluff combos are the more decisive factor that I would pay attention to when when thinking about

bluff catching. It's a very interesting pattern I noticed. I think amongst pros that's very often the thing and I think

it's also important to really trying to identify what bluff combos our opponent can have. But then again still measuring

it against the potential value combos. But what I also noticed amongst those who just are freaking calling stations

and are just really bad at making real decisions, they also tend to focus on the bluff combos first. And the moment

they can find one potential bluff combo call, >> right? So they don't like being pushed

around. I think it's also more a mental problem they have. They just don't like to be pushed around.

>> Um something I also I think I discussed with a in a podcast with a role very often childhood trauma being bullied and

they avoid every possible confrontation where they might be pushed around pushed around equals being bluffed. So the

moment they find one possible bluff call call and this is a big big problem for them to let go. But I think in order to

become very good, you need to be able to very good to determine the bluff combos, but you need to go the extra step to

also see, okay, my opponent can have 10 bluff combos or 20, but can also have 100 value combos. All right, so we got a

fold, right? So this is something the this this calibration between bluffing and value combos is something that uh

pros are very very good of. Uh but uh and and and people who struggle at rivers tend to oh I just find few

bluffs. Okay, cool. But that my opponent over bet jams 50 big blinds into 30 big blind pot and probably needs to find a

lot of bluffs or a lot more bluffs is something then this pot odds combinations right just pure logic pure

math no emotions >> is something I would say those players um um struggle with.

>> Mhm. Yeah, that makes sense. Um >> yeah,

>> you shared on Twitter something uh nobody heard a lot about you on social media. you were rather silent and then

you made this big post about sharing a bit more about yourself, your journey and then you made this post

about sharing your real profits which I honestly think I I mean as a poker pro yourself and knowing how many caches you

have and what's the real profit it's not like I was shocked um to see those numbers which playing those tournaments

is still absolutely insane good result but what motivated you to be so transparent about your cashes and and

and profits and and sharing this on on social media. >> Um

I guess I value in general um kind of honesty and and openness. Um, and I did this uh

this Reddit AMA um where someone asked about my my profits and then in answering it I kind of realize well I

just see a lot of misconceptions around these these topics and so I just wanted to address some of them. Um

because yeah, even even the number that I shared like like I explained in in that Twitter thread, like it bears very

little resemblance to um what I what I take home when you consider, you know, I sell different amounts for different

tournaments. I have swaps um >> and and my buy my buying range is so huge. you know, I'm playing

5ks, 10ks, and then I'm playing million-dollar tournaments. And um the the number that I shared is kind of just

meaningless. Um but I tried to yeah, give just give some some context around it. Um

I don't like the um kind of narrative that like oh these tournaments are fake and like no one's making any money and

be like I don't think any of us are pretending that our cash is on Henden Mob or like how much money we have or

how much we won. like it's it's not a secret that um you know ROIs for tournaments are

you know they are what they are that it's you're not going to have 100 ROI in in um many tournaments and especially

not the the toughest ones. Um, and yeah, I don't think any any of the the regs are kind of claiming

to uh be be more successful than they are. And I also don't think that, you know,

from a from a um kind of competitive standpoint or from a

a value of or respectability of of what um they've achieved. I I don't think it's the the decisive um

number, right? like these uh you know as especially as a as a high stakes the highest stakes tournament

players now like you just play a handful of tournaments that decide your entire year if you are looking at like those

numbers. >> Yeah. >> Um

and the the variance is just like it's insane. So, um, yeah, I guess I my motivation to to share that was just

maybe to answer some questions or misconceptions that I thought were common. Um, and just to try to be

um, honest and and open about some of the the truths of um, of the the high stakes tournament world.

>> Yeah. Well, interesting. No, I I definitely appreciate it. And I think the poker world in general appreciated

that honestly. And before we wrap it up, I have one more question and then I want to play a little short game with you. Um

what and I always like to ask questions who it's hard to solve. It's hard to have a perfect answer for this where I

think a lot of us can benefit from someone's experience and especially when it comes to am I really still beating

the games and how how can you tell the difference between running badly and slowly becoming worse than your

competition? Um, that's a great question and it's not

easy to to know I guess. Uh, >> of course not. >> I mean, I think if you

if you are better than someone, you should be able to obviously name what they do wrong and

what you're exploiting about them. Um, and likely they have maybe they have the same ideas about you, but um,

yeah, I think there's a feeling that you get when you're playing with someone and you, um,

just can't figure them out or you just you're not confident about any exploits or um, they, you know, seem seem to make

the right decision against you a lot. Obviously there's there's some variance of that but um I think you can feel when

you are um either outmatched or or kind of on level footing and then you can also feel

just seeing people show down hands just you know that look like mistakes to you or I wouldn't have played like that or

I'm comfortable making this exploit because I I think he's under bluffing this spot or or whatever it is um the

more the more often you feel like that when you're playing against someone, the more likely it is you're actually um

have an edge over them, right? >> Yeah. For me, for online poker, it was when I

played, let's say, I don't know, maybe 500 hands or thousand hands and I wouldn't have a single note on them.

Then I knew, okay, they do something that um you usually when you play a large amount of hands against someone

and you sit down, how can I exploit them and you say, "I don't know." Then usually you mean, okay, they're equ at

least equally good >> or they're better than you, right? For live poker, I mean, probably you also

have notes and reads, right? But if you think about them, um, so for example, when I made top 10 videos, I always had

you in my top 10. I also had Mikita Bachakuski. we play a lot online and I would say I don't [ __ ] know how to

exploit him, right? So, you know, he's at least as good as you are or even better, right? So, it's one of these two

and this is with a lot of tournament players where I would just admit to I would not try to play against a lot of

pot against him. if he sits on my table, maybe there's other weaker players where I can put my focus. I can I'm okay

giving up a little bit of EV, you know, folding a margin of hand just to realize my future game to play uh plus EV pots

against the other players. I think there's also in-game table selection important to where you where you invest

your big blinds, right? It's also investing your time, energy, focus, and big blinds on the weaker opponents on

the table. But as you said earlier throughout the podcast to say, "Okay, this player, I had a lot of students

where, oh, I'm uh I have such an edge in $10 limits." Okay, tell me what is it? Give me a list of 15 20 things that

you're doing. >> Yeah, just your ego. You're just bullshitting yourself, man. Come on. You

have to say I'm three betting more aggressively button versus cut off. um um check raising these kind of boards

more aggressively against the population or like you know you just rapidly fire [clears throat] a couple of exploits

where you see what what they're doing wrong on these stakes and >> yeah so for me not having the notes on

someone is just usually they're doing something that uh I can't figure out and that's that's cool right

>> yeah and I think it's it's a a fascinating part of the game is how you incorporate

these these um these player types and these perceived edges into the bigger picture. Like you like you said, you can

try to play less pots with someone, but that's not always um not always your choice. Um so then it's like, okay, do I

want to like how how does the equilibrium shift from one player being better than another? Um, I think it's

not just um not just one thing where you're playing less hands. You also maybe then

want to uh play more aggressively to play uh play bigger pots where well kind of again goes both ways. But for

example, uh if you we're talk talking about defending the big blind um and you you know you think that your

opponent is is better than you and you have all these marginal continues that um aren't um supposed to make anything

at equilibrium or make very very little makes sense to fold them. >> But then what's the kind of downstream

effect of that? Well, your opponent's then likely going to be opening wider to exploit the fact that you're you're

folding too much to the big blind. And now you want to now the Eevee of those hands maybe goes back back up a bit. So

it pushes it in the other direction. But it also means that maybe you want to reshove more and you don't you want to

take these hands, not just the hands that are close between folding and calling and fold them. Maybe you want to

take some hands that are close between shoving and just defending and shove them instead. So now you provide this

disincentive for his his exploit of your original um adjustment of playing less hands. Um he's also going to

run into it run into a shove more often if he tries to open too wide. So yeah, all of these all of these dynamics are

super fun. And when you have uh for example one um very big losing player at the table, how everyone's adjusting to

that and trying to um attack that as much as possible whilst defending um against kind of

counter exploits from other players and um yeah, it's just uh it's a great game. >> Yeah. No, that's that's true. That's

where so much leveling is happening. Um, Stevie, it was delightful talking to you and I think our audience uh really

really appreciate it. Um, I really hope maybe in the future we can do another part. There's so many aspects that that

uh we can talk about, but I know you have a family. I don't want to keep you for too long. But before I release you,

I would like to play a little game with you. It's called the handicap. The way it works is I present you a scenario in

a poker game and you can choose a handicap and you have to choose which handicap is less minus CV. It's going to

be four scenarios and you have to tell me there's no right or wrong because it's for sure not going to be a we can't

solve it. But if you have to solve it, what would you go for? W sorry it's no >> cap that I would prefer to have

>> to lose less EV. So obviously you want to choose the more plus CV situation. >> You're playing the WSOP main event uh

first hand 300 big blinds. You get aces open limp or open shove. >> You can only choose those two.

>> I would go open limp. >> Do you want to give us a quick explanation why you think this has more

EV than the open shuff? I mean, chances are I can I can someone's going to raise I can get a a

normal play the hand like more normally go going forward. >> Um,

>> also maybe, you know, I can I can play off the the hand if it goes to showdown and um work in more more limps. Uh, just

play around with it for the rest of the day. I think it's it's easier to incorporate limping into a into a viable

strategy than it is incorporate open shoving 300 big blinds. So I think I would use it as yeah an opportunity to

um you know start building an image and start like having fun with the the dynamics of the game like you said like

we were talking about um >> rather than just yeah going all in. >> Okay, next question. We continue. We're

100 big blinds deep and every single time we have a normal t table setup, some wrecks, some recreationals, nothing

too ordinary. You have to choose between two strategies. So if you want to three bet, you can

only mint three bet only or you can only open limp. So if you want to raise first in, you can only open limp or you can

only min three bet only. Which strate or which handicap do you choose? >> But I'm allowed to just call a call a

raise. You're allowed to call a race. Yes. But if you want to three bet, the only sizing is min three bet.

>> Um I would only min three bet, I guess, just cuz it comes up a lot less often. Uh

>> but isn't technically because if we would feed a solo with the strategy we say okay we play an openlim strategy

do we less do we lose less EV then let's say if we force ourselves to mry bet I I don't

know the right I've never run this by the way I'm just assuming >> I would think having to open limp is is

pretty bad >> is it something that is field specific for WP where players are more passive

and might work better in a Triton or is it something you think it's in general you would go for the min three bet only?

>> Um it just seems like the the the min three bet option is a lot closer to a normal strategy cuz you

already aren't three betting that many hands in the first place compared to how many hands you're open raising. And

then, okay, at least you're putting some more money in the pot. You're getting the pot

heads up, whatever. >> Okay, >> it still functions kind of the same way

as a as a three bet. Like, okay. Yeah, they're going to continue every time, but whereas the difference between

limping and open raising, I think, is it's so you just get so many like >> Yeah.

big multi-way pots and then it's really hard to I feel like it's

hard to have exercise like a big skill advantage

post flop when someone's going to have someone's going to connect with the board um way more

often, right? So, >> uh, yeah, I think I think being able to >> play most of your pots, um, heads up or

three ways when by definition you're entering the pot with a with a stronger than average hand. Um, it's a hand you

want to play. Um, I prefer that to um having to place so many limp pots and the only benefit being that I can three

bet normal size, which yeah, okay, it's going to give me more more EV with my good hands, get more money in the pot,

but doesn't change that much about um just kind of the dynamics of the game. >> Okay, interesting. Very interesting. Um,

>> you disagree. It's I disagree would be too much of an overstatement. It's really like the difference is minor. I

just think that um in limp pots just it also allows you to play more hands, right? I can now limp

hands that I wouldn't be able to open race. So I gain a bit of EV back. It's just now the assessment how much do I

think how much EV we gain back. Obviously, I might value it a little bit higher than you do compared to giving up

the EV of open raising in the first place. I disagree with a lot of players who like to play a limping strategy,

especially PKO's. I think >> it's what in theory works well, but I think it's really bad in practice

because people are not playing aggressively enough against limbs where a lot of the VV comes from with the limb

pushes, limb rees, etc. But in this specific scenario, I would I would honestly prefer the limbs limping over

mint three betting. >> Okay, [laughter]

>> it's an interesting question because they're obviously very different and have huge impact. So likely there's one

answer that is way better. But >> yeah. Okay, number three. That's going to be interesting. Big blind play. Okay.

So, you either have to call every single hand from the big blind against the min race

or you have to play three bet only from the big blind. >> Um, I would

You mean I I'm not allowed to fold anything or you mean that I just can't three bet?

>> No, no. If in one strategy if you want to decide to defend your big blind, you have to call every single hand.

>> But I'm allowed to fold. >> No, you play 100%. You call every single hand against the min race. In the other

strategy, you have to if you want to defend your big blind, the only option is to three bet only to a normal size.

That also includes re-shovving, but like not mint three betting. You're you're allowed to play your normal three bet

strategy, but you're not allowed to call. Uh you can fold. You can fold, right? But you're not allowed to call.

>> I can fold in the second scenario, but not the first scenario. Yes, exactly. >> Um,

and presumably everyone can everyone's figuring this out and adjusting to to me playing this way.

>> I I made this experiment once. The experiment was I played an online tournament uh and I actually recorded

this. Unfortunately, we lost it and my I had to VP every single hand. You had no idea how long it took for people to

figure it out. I was like we were 70 80 hands deep and I the blinds would still fall. I would

get so many open raises through it three bets. It was crazy. But like this this >> reminds me of um way back in the day. Do

you remember SC Trojans or was he before your time? >> Who?

>> SC Trojans was his name. >> Doesn't ring a bell now. He was uh he was a I think only a tournament player

back when I guess maybe even before we were playing those hypers. But >> um anyway, he he was a good player, but

he was legendary for tilting on on um Sundays. He would get to a point where he just punted off all of his stacks cuz

he he you know lost lost the big one or whatever. And I remember being at his table on ultimate bet and they had a pot

put pot bet buttoned the pot bet button. >> Okay. Well, there was also a newbie.

>> Um, so he was just mashing this pot button instead of like every other table he just open shoved every hand. This

table he was just putting it. So he was whatever 3.5 exiting pre and then every street post flop he was partying and

like no one caught on for so long and he was just a huge chip leader of the tournament and people would just be like

tanking tanking okay call the flop tank fold the turn every hand like because I guess everyone was playing too many

tables to to notice and he just ran up this enormous stack like just [laughter] literally potting every time time the

action was on Um um so with that said,

>> did he did he end up winning the tournament or did he >> I don't think so. No, I think people

figured it out eventually. >> Um >> but I mean you it's from the big blind,

right? And it's also like if someone raises in three bets in or raises bigger sizing, you're allowed to fold, right?

So it's just men open or slightly over men like these normal. But if you know this actually before you you can fold.

So I think it will take some time and then probably by that time you already change got a new table um to continue

the shenanigans. But if you would have to choose what what STR what handicap would you choose?

>> I would choose um calling everything I guess. Yeah. Never never three bet and >> never fold.

Again it just seems like it's closer to the strategy that you >> Yeah. want to use like more of your

hands really hate to not be able to call than they really hate to not be able to um

three bet and same with the with the folds like you don't fold that many hands anyway. So, um,

yeah, it seems like just defend everything and then make the Eevee back as best you can post flop with the good

hands. And, uh, I guess it it really sucks when you go go multi-way and you have to just like flick it in with um

with the seven deuce because it's part of the handicap. But, >> um,

yeah, I think I would still choose that one. All right, last question. Raising 50% from under the gun or raising 100%