Download Subtitles for Jeffrey Dahmer - Dr. Judith Becker PT3 Audio

[Music] would you continue on doctor if you know where you were so I don't have to repeat this I think we're at U we're at the uh David Tas I think at age 29 not 19 yeah at age 29 um Jeffrey met David Thomas his ninth victim he reported that he met him on his way to a bar he propositioned him and then brought him back to his apartment they watched a video he gave him a drink strangled him and then posed him he kept the body for one to do two days and he laid the body on the edge of his tub and quote slid open his belly end quote he took pictures of him he defleshed him acidified the flesh flesh and skull and kept the skull he wanted to dry the skull out quicker and consequently took the victim uh Edward skull and David Thomas's skull and put them in the oven he reported that he heard popping noises and that it was the water vapor expanding in the skull and flaking the skulls were destroyed he did not save the body or eat any part of it Jeffrey mentioned that an escalation of his Behavior had occurred the initial behaviors were now not as satisfying to him and that his quote moral pompus had been shot total depravity end quote period although he functioned at work he spent his time fantasizing about necrofilia and his compulsion in this area he stated he lived for the weekends at this age he went to Chicago for a vacation and met a man at a bath Club the man was black they went back to his apartment and Jeffrey drugged him he stated that for some reason he did not do anything else he just masturbated and kissed this man and the man left he did not kill this man and he felt that it might be that he was not as attracted to him as he thought he would be at age of 30 Jeffrey met his 10th victim Curtis strer I'm not sure how you pronounce the name Mr B um was 18 he met him in Wisconsin and propositioned him this victim wanted to perform anal sexs on Jeffrey and Jeffrey did not want him to Jeffrey drugged him cuffed him and then strangled him he posed him for pictures he kept the head genitals hands and acidified the flesh what did he mean by he posed him for pictures um Jeffrey had pictures in his apartment of men uh in different poses and he would take his victim some of them and put them on the table that was part of his Temple and try to imitate the poses of the men who were in the pictures did you see those pictures of his apartment showing those men that were on the wall of the apartment yes I did and with the poses of the victims that he put on the black table where they like the poses of the people in the pictures that were on his wall yes they were but the pictures of the people that were on his wall were not pictures of dead people they were like posters that's correct okay so he placed the dead victims in the same pose and took pictures of them that's correct continue Angel he say he post him for pictures he kept the head he preserved the hands genitals and scullin from mahide he masturbated a couple of times after he strangled him he reported that he began watching Exorcist 3 at this time and he stopped watching Return of the Jedi he reported that the character in Exorcist 3 appealed to him that character being Satan Satan exuded these were Jeffrey's words Satan exuded control and power Jeffrey reported that he felt corrupt and evil and identified with the character he said that he would watch the movie before he went to the bar and when he brought people back to his apartment have you seen those two movies uh Jeffrey suggested that I um watch uh the movies and I have subsequently um seen those two movies and have also asked Jeffrey what particular parts of the movies was it that he identified with and then I have um Reen those parts of the movies so you understand the parts that he was talking about at least uh he was interested yes I do continue one or two months later he met his 11th victim Earl Lindsay he reported that Lindsay was not gay the only reason I interrupt is I noticed what I think is a typo the name is Errol Lindsay I'm sorry um and it's quite possible Miss White that um I may have um M Jeffrey I'm not sure the only reason I wanted to correct Arrow Arrow he reported that Lindsay was not gay he met him during the day on a street corner he offered him money and brought him back to his house to watch Exorcist 3 I questioned Jeffrey about the body parts that he had stored in the freezer he reported that periodically he would take portions out of the freezer and cook them while he ate he would become aroused uh he never gave any of the victims body parts to eat um that might be bit confusing there what I asked Jeffrey is when he brought other people over to his house did he ever offer them um any of the body parts of cooked body parts of people regarding Errol Lindsay he reported that um he did not have sex with him before he drugged him he then drugged him and his victim fell asleep the behavior again escalated at this point Jeffrey noted that he was sick of doing what he was doing and wanted to render his victims zombies he had a handheld drill and bored a hole in the skull to the brain he used a large syringe and filled it with acid which he injected into the frontal loes so that his victim would still be able to follow commands he reported that his victim woke up after the first injection stated that he was groggy and had a headache he then gave him more sleeping pills he then strangled this victim posed him took pictures laid with the victim and masturbated he acidified the Flesh and skeleton but kept the skull Jeffrey reported that he had used a pairing knife because he tried to preserve the skin but this did not work doctor let me stop you at this point was there any chance in the world that Jeffrey dmer and trying to zombiee these poor folks was going to ever be able to accomplish that um and that that home uh drilling the way he was trying to do it she's not a medical doctor I think that it's outside her area of expertise okay you ever worked in a hospital doctor yes have you done any training in a hospital oh go ahead forget it continue on um few months later he met his 12th victim Tony yuse who he reported was a de mute in his mid-20s but Tony was black friends of Tony's drove him to um jeffy's apartment they kissed watched videos and he gave him drugs he did not remember drilling holes in uh Tony but he stated that he must have because Tony was dead when Jeffrey awakened he had sex with him and laid with him um Jeffrey laid his body on the corner of his bedroom floor at age 31 when Jeffrey was 31 he met his 13th victim uh conx sentus of B a 15-year-old male he reported that he went to a mall at 5: in the evening and that in the eating area and was in the eating area of the mall he was about to go home when he saw a EUR Asian man walking into the mall he propositioned him and offered him $50 to allow him to take pictures I I don't want you to read the next sentence uh because right now that that would be a that's an identifier and we're not identifying that next sentence so okay uh he gave him a drink drilled holes in his skull and filled it with acid at one point in the morning his victim was still sleeping and Jeffrey went out to a bar for a beer as he was leaving the bar he saw his victim sitting at the side of the road he was naked and two females were around him the police came as did a fire truck the police got out and asked what was going on Jeffrey told him that this was a friend of his who was drunk the police Poli believed him wrapped him in a blanket and walked the victim back to his apartment the police entered the apartment Jeffrey stated that there was a body in his apartment in the bedroom he didn't say that to the police that's correct however the police never entered or looked in the bedroom the police laid this victim on the sofa the police saw two photos that Jeffrey had taken of the victim and one officer held up a photo as if to say and these are Jeffrey's words see he's telling the truth Jeffrey gave this victim one more injection and that was fatal he then posed the victim took pictures had anal sex with him and masturbated he acidified the Flesh and the skeleton de fleshed and saved the skull the compulsion was so strong that the police being there did not make any difference and he continued in his behavior shortly after this he met his 14th victim Matt Turner 20-year-old black male Jeffrey had attended the Chicago Gay Pride Parade and met this victim at a bus station he offered him money took him home to watch Exorcist 3 had light Stacks drugged him and strangled him he def flashed and acidified the body saved the skeleton in the freezer and put the head in the freezer he threw the other body parts into the trash Jeffrey noted that around this time the body meat in his freezer was getting old and he disposed of it one or two weeks later he met his 15th victim Jeremiah Weinberger AG 25 who was of Jewish Puerto Rican distant he met him at a bar in Chicago he approached his victim offered him money the victim performed oral sex on Jeffrey they took the bus back to his home they kissed engaged in masturbation watched a video and Jeffrey then gave him a drink once he was unconscious he drilled a hole in his head and used boiling water he reported that this victim woke up and was functioning but was groggy Jeffrey then gave him more pills and another injection he reported that the victim went into a coma and the next morning he was still in a coma and Jeffrey tried to wake him up Jeffrey went to work and when he returned home he found that the victim was dead he stated that he felt bad because he wanted the victim to be coherent and to carry on a conversation with him Jeffrey stated that he engaged in the drilling technique to avoid having to strangle and kill his victims I asked Jeffrey how things were going at work at this period of time and he told me that he had been missing days at work because of his victims he said he was at a point where he could have been fired one or two weeks later he met his 16th victim Oliver lacay he reported that Oliver was black and was a bodybuilder he offered him money they had light saxs they watched a video and Jeffrey drugged him he reported that he then called into work siick and he was then fired he had kept the headless body of his 15th victim in his bathtub according to Jeffrey Oliver never saw that body Jeffrey reported that he did not use drilling on this victim he drugged him strangled him performed anal sex before and after death posed him and took pictures he he also def flashed his 15th victim at this time and saved the head he was going to use vict Oliver Ley in his Temple area at this point he had lost his job was drinking heavily and running out of money one week after he had strangled Oliver Lacy he bought a 57 gallon drum to acidify all of the skeletons he was going to keep he then met his 17th victim Joseph brof who he stated was Caucasian they had drinks together he offered him money he drugged him and strangled him Jeffrey reported that quote not much sex occurred end quote he def fleshed him put the skeleton and head in the freezer put his clothes in the trash after he cut them up and did not take any pictures because he was out of film after this victim there was another one whose name he could not recall he had put cffs on this victim and the victim ran out of his apartment Jeffrey reported that during this time he had been drinking 150 proof rum he indicated that three police officers came went to get the key for the handcuffs and saw pictures that Jeffrey had taken of his victims he was then arrested he reported that he was very frightened when he was arrested he stated that he did not immediately have a sense of relief but this occurred several days later when he knew that his behavior had come to an end I asked him whether consciously he had want wanted to be apprehended and he said no Jeffrey stated that in looking back he realized how horrible his Acts were the impact that all of this must be having on his victim's families he reported that he had depersonalized his victims and never asked any questions about their lives he reported that he had been consumed by desire and would not have been able to do it if he had known these people on a personal basis they became objects to him I questioned him about his sexual fantasy SE and urges since his arrest he reported that they are not as strong as they had been pre-arrest and that he has no desire to commit violence he tries to keep sexual thoughts out of his mind he reported that it is quite possible that the compulsion would return if he was not in a structured environment and stated quote it would be nice to get rid of it completely end quote he reported that he had killed a total of 17 people and that once apprehended he wanted to quote tell all end quote I asked if there were people that he had not killed and he said that there were three he did not murder these people because either he was not attracted to them or he did not have pills to drug them with I asked him if throughout the course of his life he has ever had a relationship that had any degree of depth he disclosed there has been no person since his childhood friend Initial D in terms of the depth of feelings in a relationship in terms of relationships Jeffrey reported that he quote fell into a mode that didn't deviate end quote he said this was a mode of meeting people and not having any degree of social intimacy or contact with them when asked about why I did not develop a relationship with another person he told me that all of the people he met gave time frames that is where they had to be at a certain time that they had to go home that they had to be with someone else he did not feel that he could leave any of these people in his apartment and that he wanted contact with people now if I may comment there Mr Bo because um it's the reason that he didn't want to bring anybody back to his apartment and have a relationship because he didn't know what he would do in terms he was interested in putting people out and having sex with him he didn't know what he' do with body parts that he stored in his apartment or how he would continue this by drugging the people and then killing them he would have people who would remain and stay with him in regard to his alcohol abuse he reported that during college while in the Army and after the Army he was dependent upon and abused alcohol he indicated that he would drink one case of beer every weekend I asked him if he passed out and he stated rarely he did recall however that when he was on work release he was given a pass at Thanksgiving and he did not want to go home so he went to the mall which he discovered was closed he then went to a bar and drank beer and a whiskey called Yukon Jack he drank one bottle he then went to a gay bar and went home with some man he met there he blacked out at this person's apartment and when he awakened he was hog tied he had bruises on his leg and the man was doing something with a candle in jeffy's rectum when he came to he yelled Jeffrey reported that his leg was beaten raw but he did not have any anal damage Jeffrey reported that during this time period of luring people to his apartment and then killing them he felt emotion Ally dead I asked him about his health he reported that he does not get any exercise in prison and that do you still want me to go on with this yes please and that he is taking a medication he didn't know the name of it but described it as a little purple pill to relieve body itching he reported that he sleeps okay except for a fellow inmate who screams during the night and wakes him up I asked him if he has any dreams about his victims and he reports that he does not he then did recall one dream in which there was a modern building in all young people in their 20s live there there were males as well as females and they were dressed in leather and they were on the floor eating something he stated that he walked into a room and on the walls were that should be pastel colors like being projected he reported that the floor was Misty and there was a guy there walking toward him but the man never got close to him he reported that he woke up he indicated that in the dream he did not recall feeling attracted to this person uh Jeffrey again I asked him about whether he knew if what he was doing was right or wrong he knew that the behavior he had been engaging and was wrong he indicated however that quote after the Ambassador incident I was not able to control the behavior and quote further sexual history he reported that at the bath house he got erections approximately 10% of the time but was never able to ejaculate once his Partners were drugged however he got erections 100% of the time and he was able to ejaculate at his apartment he got erections 10% of the time when his victims were awake once drugged he got once drugged he got erections 100% of the time he reported that the sexual acts were more erotic once his victim was dead during the course of all of these events he masturbated two times a day his fantasies were a person being Kos approximately 75% of the time the remainder of his fantasies involved his victim being dead and having sex with them I asked Jeffrey again why he killed his victims he reported that he did not just drug them and have sex with them and let them leave because he wanted to keep them he wanted them to stay with him I asked him if he had ever been arrested for other types of behavior he reported that he had been arrested for drunken disorderly conduct exhibitionism taking pictures of a minor and for his present crimes he also had been arrested for shoplifting a leather coat and he indicated that he did steal mannequin Jeffrey reported that he never learned how to develop close relationships and most of his activities were solitary he responded qu my emotions were deadened from hickon end quote I asked him about his therapeutic contacts with Dr Rosen who he saw after he was arrested for exhibitionism he informed me that three qus of the way into therapy the incident occurred at The Ambassador Hotel he reported that therapy was expensive and he had to take the bus 10 miles to get there he stated that he was resentful towards the therapist and that he did not feel that it would make much difference he found therapy was not helpful and then stated quote but it was my fault not hers end quote Jeffrey reiterated that he never blamed anyone for his actions and that he accepts responsibility he said quote the truth has a way of coming out end quote he said that talking with the detectives was a purging for him he saw it as a confession he claimed that he believes in a life after death and wants to get what he has done out in the open I questioned him further about his interest in the satanic he disclosed that he could not control his impulses and gradually surrendered to them he then felt evil and began reading the Satanic Bible and watching Exorcist 3 prior to this he had watched Return of the Jedi and began wearing the yellow contacts to be like an emperor he felt that given what he was doing he was like Satan himself I asked Jeffrey whether or not there was a family history of criminal Behavior he reported there was not except that his brother David broke a window at a railroad station at age 12 he stated that presently his brother does computer work um at a company Jeffrey stated that while in Milwaukee he felt closest to his grandmother she was always kind to him and she was a perfect grandmother and quote you couldn't ask for anyone nicer end quote he also revealed that he despises the attention that this case is getting he stated quote I was always a private person end quote I asked him if he have ever read cases about serial killers and he told me that he had not he said further that he had no Fascination and never read any crime magazines or any type of material along this line I questioned him about how he felt now and he presented me with a passage from his Bible and it's Romans 7:14 and I quote for what I want to do I don't do but what I hate I do and if I do what I do not want to do I agree that the law is good end quote what did that mean to you that um that on some level he didn't want to be killing the people he was killing and having sex with him after death um and that he hated doing that but he couldn't do other than that and he agrees in essence with the laws that people should not be allowed to do that go ahead I asked Jeffrey what he thought would happen in the future he said he wanted to have a situ ation where he could have peace and quiet where he could read write listen to a radio he stated that that was the best he could hope for he also stated at this point that it was painful to think about the victim's family members and what they are going through and that in the future he wanted to write a letter of apology to the victim's family members in further discussing the situation in prison he reported that he has not received any mental health therapy he served three meals a day he reported that last Sunday he became angry because they took his pen away from him I asked him what his parents are presently doing he said that his mother is a mental health worker and is living in California he stated she's in her mid-50s his father Works uh in another city and lives with his wife because Jeffrey was so interested in physiques I questioned him about whether or not he had ever worked out he said that he worked out on and off at home but he never really stuck to it he did for a while have a membership to uh a health club I questioned him about why he had purchased the Griffins he indicated that they are representative of evil he stated again that after the Ambassador incident things really went quote full-fledged wrong end quote I asked him about whether he had any auditory or Vis visual hallucinations he reported that he did not when I asked him if he had done much traveling during his lifetime he reported that other than being stationed in Germany and traveling to Munich living in Miami and going to New Mexico as a Boy Scout he had done no other traveling after he was arrested the second time he reported that he moved out of the 24th Street apartment and met a black man and brought him back to his apartment even though he no longer lived there the apartment had been rented he then went to the basement with the man he reported that the guy knocked him out K kicked him took his money $300 when he recovered he was taken to the hospital kept overnight and his head injury was Suited I asked him whether or not he was able to cry and when was the last time he cried he reported that the last time he cried was when he was in college following his first victim he stated that he was feeling bad about having killed the person was drinking out of control and cried he reported that he is quote surprised end quote that he quote did that end quote to 17 people he stated that it feels like a Twilight State he then stated that he wished he could die that his heart would would stop beating during this interview Jeffrey drew a picture of the temple that he had planned to build it consisted of a table and in front of the table was a black chair on either side of the table were reconstructed skeletons that were to be painted on the table there were to be incense on both ends and 10 painted skeletons there was to be a wall plaque a blue curtain and a lamp with blue globe lights Mr dmer is a blond-haired Hazel eye 6' 175 lb single Caucasian male he was escorted to the interview by guards he was wearing prison Garb his behavior could be described as being cooperative throughout the interview through most of the interview he drank coffee smoked and during each session he ate a bag of M&M's he was oriented to time place and person he knew the month did not know the date he was off by two days and he knew the current year it was no evidence of hallucinations or delusions or psychotic thought processes his memory appeared intact he did not not have difficulty concentrating his affect was appropriate given the situation in discussing his victims he reported the events in a rather wrote matter ofct manner it was only towards the end of the second interview when Jeffrey was reflecting on what he had done that he appeared to evidence remorse about his behaviors well that completed your problem this was not my report this were my notes on my interview over Dr you have told us about a diagram that Jeffrey Drew for you number 31 identification I asked you if this is the diagram that Jeffrey Drew for you concerning this temp that he was going to create in his apartment with the body parts and the way in which you had been yes was that drawn in your presence yes it was and who drew it Jeffrey did did you have him initial it um Jeffrey did not um initial it I put the date and that it was his drawing and I put down these were reconstructed uh skeletons was this important in your psychological evaluation the M they have some idea what he was talking about in order for you to understand what he was doing um well Jeffrey offered to uh to draw that but it was helpful in terms of getting a sense of what he was going to be doing with the skeletons and skulls that he was saving move that defendant exhibit number 31 be received in evence as exhibit proceed I would then ask the court tell the court that I have made 14 copies of this for the uh jury to see and I asked it be published any your hon I have no objection if it's published but I don't think everyone should keep one since we've got one in oh I don't mean it that way I just mean so when she's describing that H not [Music] Time Dr well these are being passed out judge me I uh you got it um the jury is getting aib seem to be I'm sorry the jury is getting copies of the exhibit and when they have't completed you're satisfied to have them would you explain to them what your understanding was I don't want to ask any questions about it just explain how you understood him to explain what he was going to do there well as you can see on the bottom and Jeffrey labeled this there was going to be a black chair he had already purchased the black table he had been saving skulls from his victims and had been spray painting them they were to be on top of the table and he would be burning incense he had been saving the skeletons and were was going to reconstruct them and then to paint them uh in the back he was to have a curtain there would to be these lights and these wall plaques uh Jeffrey believed um that by constructing this Temple that he would be receiving special um energies and powers that would help him in a number of areas of his life where did you understand this Temple was going to be in his apartment you know I don't think I I don't think I asked him that were you ever over at his apartment yes I was give the jury a general idea the kind of apartment it was well it's interesting Mr Bole when you uh read police uh evidence and descriptions of a a place in my mind I thought it was much larger than it was it is a very very tiny apartment that that that should give us a sufficient description who is going to sit into the black chair Jeffrey and if you look at this table did he do that in your presence by the way or did he bring that to you this diagram no he asked for a piece of paper and uh borrowed a pencil or pen and Drew it how many painted skulls does he show on this black table on the table there are 10 I think when he was sitting in the black chair did you ask him what kind of power he was going to be getting from whatever he was looking at well I think I had mentioned earlier that he was going to be getting some kind of power that would be helping him financially and socially um okay now I'm going to have to ask you some very uh difficult questions and that is did you uh ask Jeffrey dmer questions relative to uh by the way did you see the pictures the hundreds and hundreds of pictures that were in possession of the Milwaukee Police Department of which we got copies um your assistant showed me many pictures uh that I viewed before interviewing Jeffrey you're satisfied that you seen up I don't care to see anymore yes uh was he 100% honest with you as far as you're concerned as a clinician interviewing somebody with the the kind of history that Mr dmer has I'm object to the form of the question 100% honest with you all I didn't mean 100% let me ask you this let me rephrase it excuse me let me rephrase that was very clumsy I'm sorry uh when you are interviewing someone what must you as an expert in the field of Clinical Psychology conclude on the question of the honesty of the interviewee well I mean why you want to know if the person's reliable basically do they tell the same story um the next time you meet with them and two is what they're saying accurate based on other information or data that you have available to you and as it related to Jeffrey dmer how did you find him well um in general I found that there was um consistency and also um congruency in terms of what he reported in general and what I read um in the um confession that he gave however there uh were some areas of um inconsistency uh also with um all the years of experience that I have had in interviewing people who have paraphilia I know that for the most part you never get the whole story the first time sometimes not the second time and sometimes you need to know them for many months before you get the whole story and sometimes you never get the whole story did you ask Mr dmer whether or not he wanted to have sex with live or dead men yes I did and what did he respond um what he told me was that um most of his arousal what he was attracted to was being sexual with a person when they were not conscious and did you ask him to Define what Consciousness meant when they were not in a in a waking state did you ask him what most sexually attracted him or aroused him yes he was most attracted to um young men with uh beautiful bodies and nice physiques uh so much so to the point that it's uh my understanding that um he helped identify one or two of his victims he was so focused on physique that he knew one kidney was missing and he knew there were some scars under the nipples of one of the people did you uh come to a a belief an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty and talking to Mr dmer as to whether or not he was or was not interested in consensual set well I came to the opinion that he was interested in sex with people when they were unconscious and that you cannot give consent to sex when you're unconscious there is a distinction between being unconscious and dead yes relative to that what was your opinion as to what Jeffrey dmer wanted to do or not to do well what Jeffrey um there are two points to this okay one is what Jeffrey told me and Jeffrey told me 75% of his attraction was to men when they were not conscious 25% were when they were dead that's what he said let's look however at what he did what he did was he had sex with them once they were dead now in that regard as tough a question is this to ask you and as tough as the answer is going to be did you go into any detail with Jeffrey dmer as to whether or not he did or did not have sex with everyone of his victims how often he had sex and the type of sex that he had I did and what did you find well I think as I mentioned previously Mr Bole I found in interviewing Jeffrey that in in some sense it was not difficult for him to describe what he did with the bodies in terms of getting to the skeleton part what I felt was difficult was for him to be very graphic in the description of the sexual activity he engaged in with the people after they were dead so uh and knowing that people have difficulty with this I um asked him more detailed questions upon my return here and it was um as I had suspected um in that he did have sacks with and and I apologize again for the graphic nature of this he did have sacks with every one of the 17 victims with I believe it was 14 um of his victims he cut every single one of his victims open in the abdomen with 14 of his victims he placed his penis inside the viscera inside the cavity of the body and he got an erection and ejaculated inside the bodies of these people with I believe it was five or six of the people the skulls and the heads that he kept he placed his penis inside of the mouth of the decapitated person and he got erections and he ejaculated and it was with five or six of the people um after death that he engaged in anal sex with them you see Jeffrey talked about masturbating in front of or over the bodies and I felt that there was more to it than that but he had a discomfort in talking about it P I'm going to show you the exhibit that is uh called Ben 27 that's the diagnostic against physical Manual of mental disorders I'm going to ask you to look at the subcommittees under sexual disorders on perils and I'm going to ask you to tell us whether or not the name of Jud Becker PhD P yes it does you were one of how many people on that committee nine what was Mr dmer PA affiliate well um I gave him the DI nosis of necrofilia um Mr Bole we don't or at least I have not been able to find um in the literature a diagnosis to cover and I think necrofilia should be uh this should be an extens of necrofilia and I will propose it um to the people who work on these I could not find a paraphilia describing somebody having sex with an individual who is homos but a word for it something feel you um but I think that we can conceive that as a natural extension because the person is in a state that is not a lifelike State when you're out in a coma or like a zombie it's like your dad I mean your heart's beating and you're breathing but basically it's like your dad also um and again I uh his attraction to putting his penis inside the body there's a uh term called partialism people attracted to not the whole body necessarily but to parts of it um and and I see that as being a part of this too partialism is a paraphilia yes and it's arousal as to a part of a body rather than the body a body part yeah what's an example of that uh other than what we're talking about here there there are some individuals who are sexually attracted uh to stumps that is they search out people who are amputees because they find the stump erotic that's an example and and Jeffrey dmer had some of that partialism problem also yes he was not attracted to stumps but the head and into the body now doctor I don't want to be repetitious and I think I'm about finished with my examination you have testified I believe that uh to the to the legal standard but once again your findings that you have made earlier as to Jeffrey D's mental disease the time of the commission of the offense was that he was suffering from mental disease that's correct and it is as you have told us necrofilia that's correct which is part of the paraphilia family that's correct are all necrophiliacs mentally ill or diseased I'm sorry do all people have necrophilia and mental suffering from a mental disease no as Mr dmer was going along these Killing Spree what was happening to his concept of capacity to conform and the lack thereof it was eroding uh as a matter of fact and again this was not in my notes um Jeffrey said to me after he lost his job he said it was like all of the dominoes fell down tell us at or about the time of this young conak situation where the police were in his apartment can you tell us uh basically at about that time about his the concept of his ability to conform his conduct to requirements of law well there's a there's a phrase that um is sometimes used in forensic work and the phrase is if there was a cop at your elbow if there was a policeman at your elbow um and I I said looking of the behavior I mean um here was a person you know that he was going um to drive drug um to kill to have sex with who ran out the neighbors knew people on the street the policemen knew the fireman knew the policeman came to his house there was another dead body in his house me that's in his apartment I mean that comes as close as you can get to a policeman at your elbow and it it kind of frightened him of course that they were there but that didn't stop him he was arrested and on his way to prison um was receiving therapy and he went out and killed um that's not as close as the policeman in your apartment you know but that's kind of close time of the conak situation um what was Jeffrey D's State as far as the his lacking substantial capacity to I believe he he he did not have the capacity I believe I add do this I'm confident I did but it's been a long afternoon at late morning he was suffering from a mental disease which uh in your opinion was an impairment of the Mind did I not go through this with you and that it was enduring yes I've gone through that already your answer was that Jeffrey dmer was suffering from a mental disease that was an impairment of the mind that it was enduring and it's substantially affected his mental or emotional processes at the time of each and every one of the alleged offenses yes and that is made to a reasonable degree of psychiatric certainty I can't think Psy first time I did that I apologize psychological yes what about the fact that we we have an escalation in other words 78 87 88 888 8889 Etc and so forth what do you say about that is he controlling himself during these period of times when there's lapses and he is not killing uh Jeffrey still had I mean from after he had um killed that the first person I mean he had the fantasies before he killed the person Mr hi yes he still had a mental disorder necrofilia he tried to control it and he very he successfully controlled it and what Jeffrey articulates is with structure you know if he's got something to do if there's in a structured situation in a sense um by trying not to masturbate being at his grandmother's house at least for an initial period there he was able to control but then there was as as he mentioned um he's uh in the library uh gets a note starts breaking down and and you can see I mean if you were actually to at one point there to start plotting the number of victims I mean uh you would see very quickly how they're mounting and adding up that's all here thank you wait how do you want to proceed months I go now I mean it'll take how late is the court going tonight well is you're going to cross examination going to take more than half an hour uh yes probably then maybe we better start fresh tomorrow morning 8:30 tomorrow morning courts and res