Download Subtitles for Jeffrey Dahmer - Dr. Judith Becker Audio Remastered

[Music] be Becker and you live in what city Arizona and what is your profession or occupation I am a clinical psychologist and I am a professor of Psychiatry and psychology uh at the University of Arizona and I'm in the Psychiatry Department there Dr would you be kind enough to pull a microphone down so it's about your chin level that that's fine okay good uh if you need water or anything just let us know and we'll bring it up to you okay um you are a clinical psychologist yes I am and tell us what a clinical psychologist is please a psychologist is a person uh who studies human behavior and studies the mind a clinical psychologist is an individual who works with people uh does evaluations treats people and often time also does research with individuals now uh what degrees do you hold in the field of psychology I hold a bachelor's degree in Psychology a master of science degree in Psychology and a PhD in Psychology well it's a doctor of philosophy in Psychology going to go through what is called a curriculum V and that is a really an educational story of your life right I got to get them here for me to look at doct um where did you receive your first degree and from what institution after you graduated from high school uh I received my bachelor's degree from Gonzaga University in the state of Washington what kind of an institution is that it's a small Jesuit university when you graduated from there in what year 1966 and subsequent to there where did you go to school uh to Eastern Washington State College which also is in the state of Washington and what kind of a degree and in what year did you get that degree it was a degree in Clinical Psychology and that was in 1968 subsequent to graduating from that institution in 1968 with your Masters and Clinical Psychology uh where did you go there well then I worked for a period of years um in New Jersey for a school system as a clinical psych as a psychologist right I was a school psychologist then then what did you do and then I returned to get my doctoral degree and you say your doctoral degree you mean a a doctor of philosophy PhD that's correct and where did you go to school and when when did you get that degree I went to the University of Southern Mississippi and then in order to get a degree in Clinical Psychology there's a requirement that you do an internship and I did my internship at the University of Mississippi Medical School in the Psychiatry Department what states are you licensed to practice your your profession in please I'm licensed in the state of Arizona in New Jersey uh in Tennessee and I was licensed in New York however I have my license on inactive status right now now starting from the time that you left uh uh the school where you got your Masters in Clinical Psychology will you tell us what uh professional experience in academic appointments you've had right um after I re after IED my doctorate I was then EMP employed by the University of Mississippi Medical School um in the department of Psychiatry and I was employed as a lecturer in the department I then received an invitation to join the faculty of the University of Tennessee Medical School where I was an assistant professor in the Psychiatry department and I was there for three years then the College of Physicians and surgeons at Columbia University extended an invitation to me to join their faculty and I was uh initially an associate professor and then became a full professor at that University uh I also um ran a clinic at the New York State psychiatric Institute um subsequently I was offered a position at the um University of Arizona and I've been there for the past 13 or 14 months now um I would like to know what your professional experiences of been uh other than as in the academic uh uh area in other words what professional experience have you had you were a teaching assistant at the University of Mississippi white oh yes I I have um um I've taught um I have co-directed or directed clinics in the uh both the victimization area as well as the sex offender and um paraphilia area I've uh written on this topic and uh I've I've given numerous lectures and talks we've been affiliated with any courts in the 70s uh either in Mississippi or elsewhere as as a psychologist consultant I I did some uh I consulted at the Harrison County Family Court um in gulport uh Mississippi uh while I was working on my PhD what are your major research interest Dr be my major research interests are in the area of uh sexual uh disorder ERS sexual aggression um also the area of victimization um and the area of cognitive behavior therapy would you uh tell us what cognitive behavior therapy is please um it's a form of therapy um in which one focuses on the beliefs of an individual and also on their behavior to attempt to bring about change whether it's a change in thinking or an actual behavioral change if you've been in the course of the years given any awards for anything relative to your field of studies um a number of years ago when I was in New York I received the New York State um mental health award for the research that I had done with sex offenders have you been the recipient of any awards by the American Society of journalists yes I I received an award for the American society from the American Society of uh journalists and and authors because of some work that I had done on the US attorney general's Commission on pornography Dr I'd like to ask you about committees that you have been involved in and I would like even though they're numerous I think they're important would you please read from your V those committees that you have served on and uh we'll move along then at that sure um at present I'm um on the American Psychological association's Commission on violence and youth I was a member of the American Psychological association's working group on the treatment of child abuse and neglect uh I serve on the Ethics Committee of the association for the treatment of sexual abusers I'm on The Advisory board for the annual review of sex research um I co-chaired the institutional review board at the New York State psychiatric uh Institute from 1988 to 1990 I was on the board of directors of the American professional Society uh on the abuse of children from 1986 to 1990 I was on the advisory board for the national task force of the creation of standards for the assessment and treatment of juvenile sex offenders did you want me to go on or yes please um I was on the New York City task force against sexual assault I was a commissioner on the United States Attorney General's Commission on pornography I was a member of the American Psychiatric Association workg group to revise dsm3 in the area of Psychosocial disorders I was a member of the criminal and violent Behavior Review Committee for the National Institutes of mental health from 1982 to 1986 I was state chairperson of the American Association of sex Educators counselors and therapists in the state of Tennessee for 1978 I was on the board of directors of the spouse abuse task force in the state of Tennessee from 1977 to 1978 I was on The Advisory Board of the Memphis comprehensive Rape Crisis Center from 19 76 to 1978 I was on the steering committee for human sexuality at the University of Tennessee the University patient participation committee at the University of Tennessee and I was on the department of Psychiatry research committee at the University of Tennessee numis uh you over the years were you the uh in any way involved with the receipt of Grant supports for any studies that you were interested in in your field um yes uh and at present I have a contract from the uh Pima County juvenile court in Pima County is a county in which Tucan is loc that's correct yes um to evaluate um and to make recommendations regarding treatment of juveniles who have committed sexual offenses um I also have a contract from Adult Probation Department in Puma County to do assessments of uh adult sexual offenders um a couple of years ago from 8 198 7 to 1990 I had a grant from the uh National Institutes of mental health uh in the area of HIV prevention from 1984 to 1987 I had a grant from the New York state division of Criminal Justice uh to evaluate and treat juvenile sex offenders uh I also had a training Grant from the New York State Office of mental health to travel throughout the state and train mental health professionals in the area of sexual abuse I had a grant from 1981 to 1984 from the National Institutes of mental health to treat child molesters or to evaluate the treatment of child molesters let me at this juncture interject this um it has been agreed by the parties that part of your V uh or your V is going to be shown to the jury after so that we don't you know uh move along a little quicker and I indicated that to you but basically you've been a recipient of a lot of award a lot of uh of monies uh from different agencies and state and Foundation to assist in the study of Clinical Psychology as you are doing it right that's correct okay now I'd like to talk to you if I could about your professional associations and your memberships would you tell us what they are please yes I'm a member of the American Psychological Association I recently became a member of the American Academy of forensic Sciences I'm a member of the association for the advancement of behav behavior therapy uh the International Academy of sex research the American professional Society on the abuse of children the American Board of sexology uh and the Arizona Psychological Association amongst others amongst others okay now have you been on some editorial boards um yes what are editorial boards okay um uh there are a number of professional journals out there in our field um and I've been asked by a number of jour J to review journal articles to make a decision as to whether or not they warrant publication because they are scientifically rigorous and that's a number of boards that you serve on in that capacity yes give us an idea of uh for instance you're the guest reviewer for behavioral therapy the Journal of adolescent psychotherapy what kind of a what kind of a thing would you do relative to that well I would um I I would be sent articles or research studies that had been conducted Ed uh I would review them critique them make a decision as to whether they should be published in a scientific journal or whether they needed to be revised and then resubmitted or whether they should be rejected okay now tell us about your teaching experience please um throughout my career I have been uh uh active in teaching medical students uh teaching uh psychiatric residents um psychology interns uh and also uh lecturing to people within my field within the field of Psychiatry and also within the field of law now before uh you took the stand today um we uh went through your V Pages 5 through 18 uh relative to uh professional addresses that you have made uh articles and books that you've been involved in uh Publications Invitational conferences and uh Journal articles Les meaning journals of within your field H manuscripts under editorial review and unpublished manuscripts and book reviews that's correct okay and your honor at this time I would like to have Dr Becker V moved in evidence as an exhibit and that would be exhibit number 30 that's what you've been reading from have you not doctor yes it is and the only difference between what I am showing you and what you have reading from is there's been a couple of additions to your V and you have expresso for instance the Pina Pima County courts right gr that right right uh Cil has seen a copy of Dr Becker's uh uh VK and I think if the court will allow me to publish uh 14m for the jurors I have asked Dr Becker to specifically go to certain pages and see what things are relevant to her continuing T we objection being receive or Miss White no your honor actually I don't have a copy oh don't you I'm sorry as long as Council gives me one I have absolutely no problem and I knew that one it's received an Evidence and two you have no objection to be it being publish in the absolutely let's go I have somebody to pass some judge I hant to do [Music] that we're going to be starting at page uh five Dr record okay dror on page five would you tell uh tell us what uh professional addresses you've made you feel or you and I feel might be of some interest to having the jury take cognizance up well um back in the the 70s um I presented a a paper on instructional control of components of alcoholic drinking uh basically what that involved is we were seeing if uh you can if you could work with individuals who are alcohol dependent and try and teach them another way to drink whether you would be successful or not when you tell us what you looking at try and see if you can't put us on on what portion 1 2 3 4 5 6 seven it's the eighth one down under professional addresses anything else on that professional address page um also in the 70s and this would be the 10th one um the objective assessment of patterns of sexual arousal in rapists and other sexual aggressives um two more down the last one on the page what are the treatment needs of rapists and and that was a paper presented at the eth annual convention and National Organization for wom that's correct next page please dror um One Two Three the fourth one down treatment methods to control the urge to rape uh that was presented at the Society of police and criminal psychology uh the one after that a comprehensive behavioral treatment program for sexual aggressive some preliminary results at the association for the advancement of behavior therapy uh after that a research program for the treatment of sexual aggressives at the first annual conference on evaluating and treating sexual aggressives do you want me to go through all of these want you go through the ones we marked okay on page eight you're skipping all of page seven dror um there wasn't anything marked on there okay on page eight the first one um determining the sexual preferences in sexual deviates by monitoring low levels of arousal uh and that was a paper presented at the annual meeting of the International Academy of sex research I did not personally present that paper but um help put it together my colleague Gan AEL present presented it um four down uh the incidents and types of sexual dysfunctions in sexual assault victims um that was at a meeting of the American Association of sex Educators two three four from the bottom um the characteristics of men who molest young children that was presented at the World Congress of behavior therapy on page nine um 18 years and 652 sex offenders later research conclud clusions uh that was presented at the society for sex therapy and research and about mid page um treating distortions of beliefs and feelings the use of disclosure material with offenders um that was presented at the fourth annual conference on abuse and victimization at Harvard Medical School um two from the bottom offender profiles that was presented at the national judicial College that's where the judges attend and are are are in attendance yes where where they um go I believe to get continuing education okay continue on um page 10 the second one from the bottom uh why paraphilic coercive disorder will not go away you said from the bottom you mean from I'm sorry from the top where was that presented uh at the American Psychiatric association and uh again about mid pay age uh do some adolescents have paraphilia and that was presented at the National Conference on sexual compulsivity and addiction um and I think that was all that had been marked okay now that's on your addresses let's go to the uh part on your Invitational conferences that would be on page 12 you just want me to read the ones that are checked I think the ones that you know that the jury can see that there's there been five major ones but just which one do you want to bring to their attention at all um the National Institute of Mental Health's criminal and violent Behavior Conference held on next steps in research on sex offenders um and also the Surgeon General of the United States workshop on violence and public health now Publications differ from what you've already told us because they're you are an author is that right what's the difference between the Publications and the other things you've been telling us about um well the the ones that we just went through are addresses that is that you go to a conference and either you or your colleagues who you worked with present the results of your research when you have a publication that means that you took your research and you submitted it to a journal and then it underwent peer review a lot of not a lot of people but usually two or three people um reviewed the material and made a decision as to whether or not it was worthy of publication tell us which ones of those you'd like to bring to the jury's attention knowing what we're going to be talking about here today okay um on page number 12 the 1 2 3 4 fifth one um research issues in evaluating and treating exhibitionism on page 13 uh behavioral treatment of victims of sexual assault actually that was a chapter in a book not a journal um 1 2 3 4 five from the bottom sex offenders results of assess and recommendations for treatment and two after that uh the sexually abused child how about the one right before that sexual dysfunctions and deviations um that was in a book called diagnostic interviewing and then the sexually abused child which appeared in MO modern legal Psychiatry and psychology and then on page 15 so skiing 14 that's correct okay fifth from the bottom uh differentiating sexual aggressives with penile measures on page 16 uh the last one self-reported sex crimes of non-incarcerated paraphiliacs what is that self-reported sex crimes of non-incarcerated paraphilia well um most of the literature prior to us conducting the uh study that we did was based on sex offenders who were incarcerated and um we were interested and the federal government was interested in if you guaranteed confidentiality to sex offenders and then interviewed them would they be more likely to disclose offenses they had committed across a variety of behavior so we were given a grant by the federal government and we were also given a certificate of confidentiality by the federal government and we interviewed over 500 sexual offenders to see how many offenses they committed relative to how many times they had been arrested or apprehended I'm going to get into what your findings were after we get you qualified okay what's the next anything on the next page um page 17 the second one down uh multiple paraphilic diagnoses among sex offenders wait I must be missing it what which one on page 17 the second one Abel Becker okay I I have that as the first butt I'm sorry oh okay go ahead read read what you have multiple paraphiliac diagnoses among sex offenders and that appeared in the bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the law okay and um one two 3 four five there six one down um it's expert testimony in child sexual abuse litigation and that was in the Nebraska law law review uh page 18 please uh you have made some book book reviews you've read books and made book reviews for contemporary psychology and a journal of sex education and therapy correct that's correct that's what you do is you look at what somebody else has written up and you kind of evaluate it for publication that's that's correct all right and you have manuscripts of your own under uh editorial review and you also have uh an unpublished manuscript okay correct correct now uh with that in mind your honor I am finish going through the VTA and they can be picked up if uh want to do that now or probably better we do to dror as these things are being picked up I I I want to start asking you some other question I haven't asked for I got more to go on that day oh I I think I have to ask the questions about how often in court and things that you okay sure yeah uh Dr uh I'm going to ask you some questions about your experience in the field of psychology clinical or otherwise uh first of all you have told us that you are a forensic psychologist um I I do work that is in the forensic area one part of the forensic area and that is specific to working with victims and work with people who have paraphilia or sexual offenses right now tell us the difference between a psychologist with a PhD a clinical psychologist with a PhD and a forensic psychologist with a PhD and whether or not one can be all three of those well um a PhD conferred in Psychology means that you have uh mastered certain uh categories of of knowledge in a sense uh if you want to work with people to assess them and to treat them then you get extra training and you usually do an internship in which your work with people is supervised um there are people who work in the broad area of forensic psychology um who do a lot of uh Court testimony who do a lot of evaluations for the court in a variety of areas for example uh competency um to stand trial um uh whether or not a person should be able to become a foster parent to adopt a child uh to make a will Etc so uh in the whole area pertinent to the law it's the interface between law and mental health basically are all forensic psychologists clinical psychologists um I would believe that most people who have training in forensics have also had training in Clinical Psychology yes where is yours since you hold your yourself out as first and foremost being a clinical psychologist correct how is your overlapping in a forensic psychology because I am asked frequently um uh by uh courts and probation officers and by um attorneys um to evaluate people to see if they have uh mental disorders um whether or not they are amenable to being treated and in what situation that treatment should occur do you have you ever testified in court at as an expert on the issue of whether or not someone is suffering from a mental disease I have and how often have you done that probably about six or seven times and have you at each and every time when you called upon to testify been qualified as an expert yes I have have you ever been rejected as an expert no I have not um have you ever been called upon to evaluate or render an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty or prob ability as to whether or not a person was mentally responsible for a crime they may or may not for a crime they have been committed or accused of um I have not been um called upon to do that um I'm I'm not sure why but I I think part of the reason might be um that it's very rare in a sense that in the area that I work in that that type of case would get to court okay most of the cases involve people who are uh py ptic or might have a personality disorder uh how many uh of the cases that you have dealt with uh over the years had to do with paraphilias uh well before I ask you that do you have dealings with people who are called paraphilic I evaluate and treat them and how many such people have you evaluated and treated over the term of your years as a psychologist um in terms of the clinics that I have either co-directed or directed uh so that means I might not have seen every one of these people I might have supervised and the case been presented to me I would say in terms of assessment anywhere between 1,200 or 1300 individuals who have committed sexual offenses or who have had paraphilias what states have you testified in I have testified in Arizona in New York and in New Jersey um I want to ask you whether or not uh you have uh informed courts uh as to the mental condition of a person you are called upon to evaluate yes and how many times have you done that I I do that rather routinely in the course of the contract that I have um with the juvenile court and when I was in New York most of the referrals that we received were either from the probation department or from the court so I'd have to say hundreds have you been ever asked to discuss with the court in any evaluation as to how someone's mental condition may affect them as far as their ability to understand what they were doing or to be able to control their conduct uh it's mostly in terms of being able to control their their conduct and and the way that that usually is phrased is um Can this person remain um in the Comm commun can is this person treatable um if I say the person is treatable where should they be treated that is in the community or in a residential facility so I have to make a determination as to whether they represent a risk to society uh based upon first of all have you uh had any interaction with Physicians as it relates to your work with paraphilias um yes I train Physicians and frequently Physicians make referrals to me to um assist in evaluating or in treating their patients based upon your years of experience are you able to make a decision of whether or not a person suffering from the mental disorder of paraphilia is mentally uh diseased yes and have you been able in the course of your training and experience as a doctor PhD and psychology with all your attending work to make a render an opinion as to whether or not a person because of that mental disease might or might not be able to either conform their conduct to the requirements of law or to appreciate the wrongfulness of their conduct yes are you also able to address yourself to the issue as to how a mental disease of paraphilia can affect a person's capacity to engage in conduct of conforming their conduct or to appreciate wrongfulness of conduct yes this time your honor I would profer Dr Becker as an expert and a ID any V dear I just have a couple of questions Dr be um is it fair to say I believe from your previous answers that this is the first time you're being called upon to render an opinion as to in a trial as to a person's criminal responsibility for their conduct yes okay and secondly that when Mr Bo asked you about uh the opinions that you've rendered or helped courts with that went to responsibility you indicated that that was in the area of whether or not you felt the person or determined I'm sorry that the person was treatable and a risk to the community correct yes thank you nothing further well you may continue thank you Dr Becka you were retained by me to determine whether or not you could become a witness or the defect in the case of state of Wisconsin versus Jeffrey D that's correct in that regard doctor just generally what did you do upon accepting that initial task well you um I met uh with you I met with your staff uh you sent me what appears to be uh well over a thousand pages of material to read I came on January 2nd and 3rd to the state of Wisconsin and um interviewed um Mr Jeffrey dmer I viewed uh two video tapes that he had recommended to me um that I view and when I returned here on Sunday I met with Mr Jeffrey dmer again you rendered an opinion on the questions before this court and jury honor about January the 7th in written form I I don't remember the exact date but that was probably pretty close now when you came to Wisconsin in January second and third you came into what city uh into Madison and where did you travel to from Madison um from Madison to the uh Columbia Correctional Institution where I interviewed Jeffrey and one member of my office picked you up and was with you overnight and brought you up there and then another one stayed with you until you left town yes and actually on that first day I had hoped to spend um more time there but there was inclement weather and they had a lock down and uh wound up spending about I guess four 4 and a half hours the first day and about four or so hours the second day well with that in mind when you left there the second day did you feel comfortable with the amount of time that you spent with Mr dmer so as to do the task that you and I had agreed that you would attempt to do absolutely okay now I would like doctor uh to um you have a uh a written uh report but you also have your notes typed up and they're basically uh very lengthy are they not yes they are 26 pages of notes yes okay what I'd like to do is to ask you uh when you left uh Arizona and came to Wisconsin as you have said you were you were given some material yes and the conclusion of uh the two days was the time you had to make certain decisions uh whether or not you could be a witness in this case that's correct you were furnished with what the requirement of law was for a professional expert opinion to be able to uh state to a reasonable degree of uh certainty professional certainty whether it be psychiatric psychological and and you were armed with that information that's correct understand the question well she knew what her job was is what I'm really saying in other words you knew what the standard was before you'd have to made a decision whether you could help us or not that's correct and did you conclude after meeting with Mr dmer for the two days and having the materials you had that you were sufficiently able to render an opinion in this case yes I was and when did you arrive at that opinion and at what point in time did you arrive at that opinion that you could uh render such an opinion in this case after I had interviewed Mr dmer as a result of all of the information that had been given to you did it include the confession that was taken by the Milwaukee yes it did after reviewing that plus other materials that you had and after interviewing Mr dmer did you come to a point where you could render an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty or probability as to whether or not Jeffrey dmer on each and every one of the occasions of the 15 murders that he has now plad guilty to at that time plea had not been taken I I gotta get the question out I haven't got the question out was suffering from a mental disease or defect that's my question you honor my objection is that he phrased it is psychological certainty or probability and that makes it a multiple question I'll withdraw it and just concentrate on question I misspoke I said one word too much at the concl inclusion of your two days based upon everything else I've asked in the previous question were you able to arrive at a position where you could render an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty as to whether or not on each and every one of the homicides in question Mr dmer was suffering from a mental disease or defect yes and what is the opinion that you came to relative to that question that he is suffering from a mental disease and what is the name of that mental disease the name of the mental disease is necrofilia as a result it was that present that mental disease present on each and every one of the 15 occasions where he committed the homicides in my opinion it was as a result of that mental disease and on each and every one of those 15 instances were you able to arrive in an opinion to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty as to whether or not Mr dmer lacked substantial capacity to conform his conduct to the requirements of law yes I'm I'm of the opinion that in relation to those 15 homicides that he lacked substantial capacity to conform his behavior it was a lack of his capacity conform his behavior because of his mental disease that's my opinion and that's to a reasonable degree of of psychological certainty yes it is did you arrive an opinion as to whether or not Mr dmer is a result of mental disease was an did not lack substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongful of wrongfulness of his conduct to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty yes I did and what is your opinion Mr dmer knew that it was wrong to kill these people and the opinions you have just expressed are to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty yes and they are consistent with what you've said earlier that this condition and the effect of it was in place on each and every one of these 15 occasions that's my opinion tell us what you and Mr dmer did relative to your trying to determine whether or not you would be able to make an opinion as you have now expressed it when you first came to the Columbia Correctional Institution okay um Mr Bole different um mental health professionals have different ways of uh conducting interviews in my experience um I try to put the person that I'm interviewing at ease um by not starting out with the offenses that they have committed or the disorder that they have but bringing them back to their early life most people are comfortable talking about that and it can also establish a pattern uh so I began by asking Jeffrey uh where and when he was born and told him that I wanted to learn about him every year from when he was born up to the present and tell us what he said in reference to what you were saying is you have on your notes okay what we're going to do doctor so everybody understands as you go along if I feel require some explanation other than what you've given I will interrupt you otherwise we'll move along quickly okay you don't want me to read all of these I sure I want you to read that for sure abely okay um Mr dmer stated that he was born on May 21st um 1960 in Milwaukee at Children's um hospital he said that uh the pregnancy had not been planned and he doesn't recall whether or not his parents had any preferences as to whether they had wanted a male or female child why is that important because in some cases if there's a stated preference on the part of the parent an individual can develop some problem problems in terms of their gender identity disorder that wasn't present here that was not present on his next memory was when he was 4 years of age and he had a double hernia operation I asked him about this and about memories and the reason I asked him that is because there are some people who can undergo traumatic surgeries and they can develop problems relative to that um Jeffrey stated that his memories involved watching a program on TV as he was awaiting the surgery and that program was called Bewitched he doesn't remember whe his parents were there before surgery he remembers they were there post surgery and he remembered experiencing terrible pain in his groin area for the first week post surgery so much so that he asked his mother whether or not his genitals had been cut off because of the nature of the pain why is that why is that important um again uh was there trauma and was there trauma in the genital area um he recalls tremendous pain in the area of his candal and abdomen as a clinical psychologist is that dispositive of a question or is that just a matter to be considered in the overall context of reviewing someone who you're reviewing to find out whether or not they're mentally ill or not well I I like to look for patterns and I'm interested in ideology um so uh I didn't have to know that piece of information to make the diagnosis that I made U but this is the way I interview why would the aspect of the surgery in the genitalia area the groin area be interesting at all well in relation to the um offenses that Jeffrey committed and the fact that he experienced pain there and uh I apologize to the family members and also to the jury for some of the language that I'm going to use and the fact that he slid open the abdomen of the 17 15 men for this trial um that he he murdered so so you don't know what it means but you think it's worthy of note yes okay continue on please um he recalled experiencing very bad earaches between the ages of four and five he remembered spending a lot of time in the doctor's office during that period and he offered that he re had a memory of being very frightened during those ages and when he went to the doctor's office and he was frightened by the flapping of the white paper that is usually on examining tables now um I I don't know what relevance that has other than that was something that Mr dmer offered during the interview and what they offer sometimes may have some value later absolutely but you're not attributing anything specific as to any of these reported no no just as they might fit in an overall picture it might okay continue on please uh around the age of six he recalled his mother being depressed and he stated that from uh the time he was six onward his mom was depressed Moody withdrawn and physically ill um most of this Behavior occurred after the birth of Mr dummer's Brother David and Jeffrey was six years of age when his brother was born uh prior to age six he remembers his father studying for a PhD degree and his mother working part-time for a phone company he did not recall his parents having any friends he did remember that his maternal grandparents would come to the home to visit every week or two why did you make note of such information well you want to see whether or not in a child grow in a in the developmental history um of a child as to whether or not the family members socialized um whether there were other family members uh involved whether there was any degree of closeness okay continue on please um Jeffrey recall that uh age five he and some other children broke some windows and houses that were being torn down the police were notified and he recalled that his parents were shocked that he had participated in such a venture continue on I asked him about the toys that he was most interested in as a child and he stated that he was interested in Legos styrofoam building blocks and a bow and arrow he didn't recall having any guns that was a direct question that I asked him why is it important for a clinical psychologist to ask questions relative to interest in toys for a youngster well there are a number of reasons one you want to know whether or not um the parents purchased child uh uh toys for children um to play with so one they can talk with other kids about this and two they're keeping themselves busy I also wanted to find out about the nature I mean were they violent weapons for example or weapon like toys that he was playing with now is the absence of toys for a child have any significance not necessar okay so it's not one way or the other having toys or not having toys doesn't really make any difference other than the kind of toys the child might be interested in that's correct and that may or may not uh play a part here go ahead okay at age five he remembered going to an agricultural Research Center which was about a quarter of a mile from his home he recalls seeing dead mice and that when he walked into the building the first floor was filled with mice and rats he remembers being shocked and frightened he did not call having any dreams about this experience but did tell his parents about it continue on uh Mr dmer recalled having one pretty good friend at age five uh the friend was a black child his age he also recalled that some of his friends were white he remembered that they would go to one another's homes uh Mr dmer denies any sex play or sexual activity occurring at this age uh he did have a memory of a stove fire in his house he remembered that it was not very bad but that he had seen some smoke coming out as he was walking back from play another memory that he had at age five was that of telling a boy to put his hand in a wasp nest he told the boy that there were ladybugs in there and he recalled that the boy was stung uh Jeffrey was five at this time and what is the significance of that if anything well um uh first of all knowing that there were wasps there that he would want the child to experience a degree of injury or or hurt um and again I was trying to find out um during his childhood had he engaged in any activities that we might consider um antisocial we might or conduct disordered or that we might consider uh sadistic so it's important for a clinician to know these kinds of things yes okay continue after um when asked about the type of uh discipline his parents used at this age uh he reported that he was disciplined verbally uh by grounding and sometimes by spanking he doesn't recall being physically abused when asked about his memories of kindergarten he recalled having difficulty getting his boots on and off he remembered that the teacher would not help him and that he was frustrated and he cried you you asked him questions about whether or not he had been physically abused why is that important well because um in the histories of uh some some people but not all um who have sexual disorders uh you may find a history of being physically abused or being sexually abused so uh that's an important question to ask in in cases such as these you his answers were negative as to both that's correct how about his first uh do you ask him about his first instances and going to school is that a traumatic time in a youngster's life well again part of asking that is because unfortunately um there are some children who are abused in school settings and I asked it as part of that also to see whether he developed friendships continue on please um at age six his family uh moved to um I'm not sure the pronunciation but I think it's it's doown Ohio his father took a position with go ahead we're not mentioning the his father took a position with an industry there um and Jeffrey entered the first grade it was during this period that his brother was born I asked him whether or not he was prepared for his brother's birth and how he felt about it he stated that he was happy about it he was interested in curious and does not recall being jealous he recalled that they lived in a rural area and there was no one to play with to help him his parents bought him a dog and he remembered that it was a good-natured dog and he called his dog frisky he remember feeling depressed at that time uh and that the dog cheered him up did he tell you why he remembered being depressed at the time um I I you know I believe but I can't say this with absolute certainty that it was related to the move and that at that point he didn't have any friend that he had available to play with him as far as the pregnancy did you make any other notes about or do you have any recollection about the interaction of this six-year-old with his mother who now is suddenly going to have a baby in the house there there were a couple of questions that I um asked Jeffrey and the reason I asked him these questions was because some of the material indicating that he listen to Heartbeats And also the slitting open of the abdomen uh sometimes when women are pregnant and they have a child they will ask the child if they'd like to feel the baby kicking or to try and listen and I asked Jeffrey whether or not you know his mom held him on her lap whether or not she ever placed his hand on her abdomen to try and feel the baby moving around and I also asked him if he had had any thoughts or fantasies of trying to injure his mother to get rid of the the the child what was his response as those his response was he recalls his mother um holding him um he recalls having his hand on her abdomen he has absolutely no memories of wanting to injure uh his mother does he have any memories of trying to listen to the heartbeat um as I recall he it's not the heartbeat but he heard his mother's heartbeat yeah it's hard to hear the heartbeat of the how did he hear his mother's heartbeat well he was belaying on it I mean his mom would be holding him okay and he was six years of age yes okay tell us about uh his his you've got we've gotten past the part where now he had a dog and he remembers feeling depressed and the dog would cheer him up what happened what was the next thing you and he talked about well then Jeffrey had a a memory right after he had talked about um his dog frisky of a neighborhood dog who was vicious and was a trained attack dog one day the dog broke his chain and chased Jeffrey uh he fell down and the dog nipped him on the buttocks he remember feeling thankful that the dog didn't hurt him more seriously um because this was a very vicious dog um he also recalled I asked him at that time uh since his brother had been born what the sleeping Arrangements were in the home he said they had separate rooms he recall being bused to school uh he would come home from school to his mother watch TV and play with his dog I asked him how things were going in school he recalls being sent to the principal principal's office and was spanked on one occasion now he was made to stand in the hall for a couple of hours he was not able to recall what the the infraction was based upon your job as a clinician you're writing down notes and answers the questions you're putting to Mr dmer things that he is telling you in response to your questions or volunteered and then you're transcribing basically everything he told you with an idea to finding out whether or not that they're important data or not that's correct how about this last business you told us about anything significant in that well you know in that again if he was a conduct disordered youngster um I would have thought there'd be more than just one incident of being called to the principal's office so you don't see that no okay continue on at age um the family moved to barberon Ohio and they lived there until Jeffrey was eight um he recalls making some good neighborhood friends and also that there was a swamp nearby and he would go to the swamp and he would collect tadpoles he remembered taking some to his teacher and Jeffrey stated that he liked this teacher however he was upset when he learned that the teacher had given the Tad B Tad poles to a boy in his class who was Jeffrey best friend at that time and I asked Jeffrey how he knew the teacher had done this and he stated that he had been over the friend's house and he had seen his Tad poles in the garage Jeffrey stated that he took motor oil and poured the motor oil into the container of Tad poles in which they were housed to kill them he told his friend that he had done this Jeffrey viewed his teacher as a kind person but he felt that she had rejected him by giving away the Tad poles why is this significant well because there's a killing of animals at a very young age um and again trying to see if somehow a pattern developed early on okay continue on please are you seeing a pattern developing earli well I'm I'm concerned um at age seven um that he is killing animals go ahead continue on please um he recalls not having I asked Jeffrey then did you ever see anybody kill animals uh wondering where he got the idea from um and he did not uh he remembered feeling anxious after he did this and thinking if she meaning the teacher doesn't want them then nobody will have them when you report you have quotation marks around that yes when I um when Jeffrey said something directly I didn't do it in every occasion but I would frequently put quotes around what he said so he he indicated quote of anxiety and then his quote was if she doesn't want them no one will have them that's correct they were his words yeah okay continue on please during this time he remembered his mother being uh busy much of the time taking care of his brother he also remembered that his mother stopped putting him to bed at this time that is Jeffrey would have to go to bed on his own uh apparently there was a good deal of marital stress during this time and Jeff remembers his mother crying and his parents having many arguments Jeffrey calls being uh at age seven he was in the second grade and he had a friend at school with whom he played a game the boys would pretend to choke one another Jeffrey reported that this Behavior was consensual in that both boys agreed to do it and both boys agreed not to tell anyone about it the other boy however told the principal and Jeffrey was spanked he indicated that the boys would touch one another's throats but would not produce a state of dizziness he recall being very angry at the boy because he felt that he had been set up and he remembered feeling that he wanted to quote beat the boy up end quote for setting him up did he do that did he did not okay did you ask him why he didn't I did not okay other memories from age seven was that jeffy's father was working an 8 to5 job he would play tennis with Jeffrey Jeffrey also reported that he participated in Cub Scouts Jeffrey remembered having a friend from school who lived um at the end of a dump he remembered that there were snakes in the dump and he recalled getting a snake and putting it in his garage he had wanted to keep the snake however the snake had wrapped itself around the spokes of his bike when he moved the bike the snake was killed he reported that this was not intentional and he remembered thinking that of all the places for this snake which he really liked to wind up it was unusual that it wound up wound itself on his bike and ended up dying he remember developing during his seventh year a bad case of hay fever and he stated that he was constantly sneezing and had runny eyes and nose he also recalled at this age that his parents arguments continued at age eight the family moved to what Jeff described as a nice suburb in bath Ohio he was in the third grade at this point in time time he recalled their home being on 1 and A2 acre wooded lot with a pond he remembered one level was a ranch house and he recalled that it was a great place to live he recalled his father planting many fruit trees and that he fished in the pond with Jeffrey Mr dmer remembered that they would catch blue gills and bass he remembered his father showing him how to cut open a fish to clean it he remembered that the egg sack caught his eye it was the color of it bright orange and from that point on he used egg sacks to catch fish you recall this is an isolated incident of his father cutting the fish and did not recall any others what is the significance of this that caused you to put it in your report I believe that there are two areas of significance one was the way that Jeffrey related this to me in the interview um Jeffrey for the most part in relating material iel um was pretty monotone and pretty flat when he talked about cutting the fish open um and seeing the inside of the fish he became somewhat more animated somewhat More Alive in a sense knowing what he had done in terms of his victims and cutting them open and knowing that he appeared to be fascinated by the visera by the insides of his victims I wondered if that early incident of The Cutting open and the fascination with the colors was not somehow related to what happened later on fine thank you continue on please he recall being friends with a boy who lived next door named Eric they spent their time exploring new property um I'm sorry I'm not supposed to mention names yeah that's okay please um he remembered during his um that should be um eth year instead of eighth life uh his mother's mood improved somewhat but not that much um he appeared a bit reluctant to discuss his mother's uh depression that is I wanted him to talk more about his mom um but he was not willing to do that he then went on to State at that point in the interview uh that some newspaper had blamed his mother for his acts and that he didn't feel that this was fair he indicated to me that neither his mother or his father should be held responsible for his behavior and he stated quote it's not my dad or mom's fault it's my fault end quote were you able to determine his reluctance discuss anything relative to his mother and and what he talked about relative to her depression I'm I'm uncertain and I don't I still to this day do not have a very um uh un good appreciation or understanding um of jeffy's relationship with his mother in a sense that's an that's an unknown to me okay that isn't because you didn't try to learn it no uh I just believe that Jeffrey had difficulty talking about that and had a has a concern that somehow whatever is said um that it's going to be interpreted to mean that his mom or his dad some have some degree of culpability and it was my perception that he's trying to protect them from that because he doesn't believe it's their fault because he does not believe it is their fault that's correct continue on okay uh at age nine he entered the fourth grade he remembers making a new friend um he remembered that he and his friend were interested in nature and they collected different types of fungus he also remembered being interested in dinosaurs and went fossil hunting he remembered his relationship with this boy as being healthy um in terms of school he stated that he was a sea student and at this point in time at this point in time and that there were no discipl linary problems he remembered that his parents relationship was um quote fair I asked him whether or not he did any playing or a lot in the way of interacting with his brother um and he did not have any recollection of that it was at this age that he recalled becoming interested in collecting moths and he would Mount these moths he remembered that his father and mother helped him Mount the different types of moths that he collected why is that interesting well again the the interest in in animals I mean the um Tad poles but I mean there's no clear relevance I mean there are lots of youngsters and adults for that matter who who collect moths okay but but what you're telling us about many different things and how they might coal us yes okay continue after um he recalled that except for hay fever his health was good and he had trouble recalling what his mother's State of Mind was at this point in time time I asked him whether or not he had developed any interest in sex yet um at age nine and he reported that he did not I asked him if he recall killing or cutting any animals at this age and he stated he did not um at age 10 um he was in the fifth grade he recalled that he was still friends with that same schoolmate and I'll just use the initial deed for this person um he recalled inventing a game with SP Spirals and stick figures that he called Infinity land if the stick figures would get too close together they would be annihilated uh it was Jeffrey who invented this game and I asked him how he came to invent that game and he reported that he quote just dreed it up end quote he would play this game with his best little friend and he also recalled engaging in play acting with this friend the play acting was based on characters in a book by Alfred Hitchcock that he had read they would Playa the different stories I asked him whether or not any of the stories involved murder or annihilation of people and he stated that they did not he recalled not being lonely during this period and at school he felt that he was by accepted by some of the children but not by others he remembered keeping to his own circle of friends dror did you ask him why he called it quote Infinity land quit quote what what what the that's at at age uh fifth grade at age 10 the word infinity is a pretty heavy concept yeah it is Mr Bole and um I regret to say that I I did not ask him why he termed it Infinity land thanks but there was in this game he played when the sticks would get together there was Annihilation well and and I found that to be of interest well what was he how did the annihilation what can you describe the game stick stick things I I don't understand it I I again I didn't go into a whole lot of um uh detail with him just that there were Spirals and sticks and I don't have a clear concept of how they played but what was of interest to me was that there was an Annihilation part of it go ahead um he recalled having a female teacher that he liked because she would read books and he remembered her reading I asked uh Jeffrey um if there was a particular book that he um enjoyed and he said that there a science fiction book uh called a warp in time and I am not familiar with that book um he also recalled the song Tommy uh by the group The Who that came out during uh this time and he very much liked that song do you have any any significance either of those two facts um the science fiction aspect of it and quite frankly I remember the song Tommy but um I don't remember the the words or the total con made not I just made note of it go ahead continue on um he he did not recall having again I asked him at this age do you recall having any sexual interests or engaging in any sexual activity um he did not he and I asked him about killing animals and he did not have any recollection of that he recalled that at this age his parents were getting along pretty good and that his mom's mood was stable uh he remembered that his mom was on do on a uh uh medication uh and would take a lot of it uh sometimes she would become too groggy uh he remembered that sometimes he would return from school and she was sleeping and it appeared that she might have been sleeping all day any significance in that well what I was wondering I don't know that there's significance but what I was wondering clinically um is the fact that uh he attempted to make some of his victims into zombies and would lay with these people and I had wondered whether or not Jeffrey saw his mother as being a zombie and would he lay with her I subsequently um have asked Jeffrey that question and he reported he did not see her being a zombie and he would not lay with her okay he did not lay with her continue on um at age 11 he was in the sixth grade he continued playing infinity and recall that the game was be becoming more elaborate but um I asked Jeffrey if he could articulate uh how it was becoming um more elaborate but he was unable to do that um he and his friend now had a three-year friendship and they continued to enjoy this friendship and at this point they had bicycles and would ride to one another's homes he reported that his parents were doing quote pretty well uh he didn't observe much affection between them however he did recall that the family occasionally went on Pikes and he remembered that during this period his mom was taking medication and she was not always uh in the best mood um he remembered that his little brother would want to tag along with him like most little brothers did at age 13 he was in the seventh grade and recalled entering puberty at this age when asked if he had been prepared for the pubertal changes uh he stated that he was prepared in health education and that additionally his parents had spoken with him about this he did not recall how he felt as he went through puberty he remembered however that the changes that took place in his body were gradual he does not recall his mood changing at that point in time that certainly was pretty normal what he to go ahead at this point he stated that he quote lost touch end quote with his best friend he remembered however that he still played with a neighborhood boy when asked why he lost touch with his best friend and he reported that the boy's mother told his best friend not to spend much time with Jeffrey the boy's mother was afraid that the boy would develop a homosexual relationship Jeffrey recall thinking that this was unusual because he was not sexually attracted to his best friend he remembered feeling that it was quote like getting a slap in the face and quote he reported that the relationship was ended abruptly I asked him whether whether or not I asked him what his best friend looked like he described him as being heavier than Jeffrey having brown hair was chubby and had a light complexion Jeffrey recalled him as being of Norwegian descent he remembered that he and this best friend did not speak again until the ninth grade let me ask you a question when he reported that he was told by his best friend's mother well the boy was told by his mother not to be around Jeffrey because they didn't want a homosexual relationship to evolve wasn't it awful young to understand what a homosexual relationship was anyway um I would I think that most um Mr Bo I think most youngsters today are familiar around the age of puberty you know are familiar with the term homosexual or having a relationship with somebody of the same sex or opposite sex at this time in jeffy's life is that the first time that he ever was aware of the concept of homosexuality when his best friend told him that his best friend's mother was concerned I did not ask Jeffrey that question continue on please um uh Jeffrey stated that he didn't feel all that lonely even though he couldn't see his best friend because he had another friend and they found things to do around the house he remembers watching the soap opera Dark Shadows on television and he also watched Star Trek and Gilligan's Island at age 13 he recalled having his first wet dream or his first nocturnal admission um he was in the eighth grade uh he also began masturbating approximately one time a day I asked Jeffrey at that point what his sexual fantasies were um he reported that he did not recall being attracted to either males or females when he first began to masturbate um I asked him whether he had any female friends however and he reported that he did not he recalled that this period in his life was pretty uneventful uh he played the trumpet in the band he was still moth collecting and was also playing tennis when asked if he felt accepted by his peers he stated that he felt accepted Enough by the other kids um he was not using alcohol or drugs at this point in time he also recalled that his parents were arguing and not getting along very well do you want me to continue please at age 14 he entered the ninth grade it was during this age that he had his first sexual encounter with and I'll use the initial e the boy who lived next door Jeffrey remembered initiating the sexual interaction and that it was consensual in nature that as they both agreed to do this and that had occurred in their Fort house um he recalled that they were laying there naked they kissed and fondled one another he does not recall if he got an erection he indicated that after two or three occurrences the behavior stopped because they both felt that it would be too dangerous if someone saw them he does not recall his sexual fantasies at this point in time that is at age 14 he remembered that in Biology class he dissected a pig took the head home with him took the skin off and kept the skull he remembers keeping this in his garage when asked about his parents at this point he stated that he did not recall anything unusual about their relationship at this point after school he continued to watch Dark Shadows and Star Trek he denied being exposed to any sexually explicit materials at this time do you know that Star Trek is science fiction yes and Dark Shadows was what kind of a show have you been will find out um you know I uh I was asking people about this and I um they didn't say that it was exactly about the uh occult but uh I think somewhat approximating that but I have never seen that show and I don't have a real clear picture of what that show involved continue on please um at age 15 he was in the 10th grade he remembered being friends with a boy named uh G he recall being an average student however the feedback from the school was that he was an underachiever what kind of grades was he telling you he was getting average grade CES CES okay math was his worst subject and his Dad tried his father tried to tutor him he recalled that his father got upset and pushed him to do better in school his father had a teacher send home assignment so that he could work on them at this age um Jeffrey recalls masturbating every day the object of his fantasies were good-looking young guys his own age he fantasized tan well-muscled good-looking faces he recalled that the hair color and nationality did not matter in his fantasies regarding his homosexual interests he reported that he was comfortable with them he was curious however as to why he was homosexual he felt however that he had to keep it to himself he did not date while he was in in high school either males or females and he reported having no sexual partners by age 15 is there anything significant about his masturbating that with this degree of frequency Andor having had a homosexual experience on a number of occasions that he did at age 14 and starting to fantasize about certain types of people certain body types of people and faces uh at this age well the fact is um you know if if you talk to a lot of 15-year-old boys um and they feel that they can be truthful with you and you're not going to pass a judgment on them you will hear that they masturbate anywhere from two to three times a week to every day what is of interest is that Jeff's sexual erotic pattern is beginning to develop here and that is uh he is attracted to males and he is is associating that attraction with a Behavior Uh with masturbation with erection and with ejaculation and with a certain type of fantasy fantasies of males correct yeah but I mean the the male fantasy in his fantasy is a certain type of person oh yes I'm sorry a specific type of person and that is a good-look tan nice bodies okay continue on please he recalled that either at age 14 or 15 uh he went to visit a friend he was walking back to his own home when three seniors that is seniors from high school walked up to him one walked over and hit him on the back of the neck with a black jack uh he re he was able to run away from these people he felt angry and frightened and wanted to retaliate he reported that this act was unprovoked he kept the incident to himself and never felt comfortable opening up to anyone he reported that his neck was sore for several days after this what what was the significance of that please well um uh first of all that there were males who did something that injured him and injured him uh to the point that it lasted for a number of days I also um thought it was rather curious that his fantasies after that point uh developed to the extent that he wanted to hit somebody and in terms of his first victim but not a victim in this case um actually hit a person and before that had fantasies of hitting people and capturing them and and the fantasies that he thought about reference The Hitchhiker was to hit him yes in the back of the head yes and in fact on the Hicks murder he hit him in the back of the head with a barbell yes he did continue on please okay um think you're at age 16 um he was in he was a junior in high school he recall bringing home dead dogs and cutting them up he would cut the abdomen open to see what it looked like inside um he still had his dog frisky I I wondered whether or not seeing that he was cutting up these animals as to whether or not he had ever done anything to injure his own dog and he said he had not but he reported that never hurt any live animals he reported that on one occasion he was going to bleach the bones of a dog and reconstruct it he wondered what it would be like to see the internal organs he reported that since they were dead it didn't matter he recalled that he cut off the head of one dog and put the head on a steak he showed his friends this for shock value he reported that he did not tell his friends that he had been the one to cut the head off now he's 16 years of age yes if you believe his pattern of behavior as a clinical psychologist if he was coming to you and Reporting this at the age of 16 what would you start to think um I would be um just very concerned about this um I would want to have him hospitalized and I would want to have a very thorough assessment done of him because of the cutting up of animals and the fascination with viscera of the animals and the fact that he wanted to take the bones and reconstruct the animal continue on Doctor um he reported that on oh I think I've already read this okay he recalled having a few friends at this point he also recalls feeling frustrated that he could not experience sex could that's sex with a partner okay um he indicated well let me ask you this sex with a partner did he did he limit the partners that he was unhappy that he wasn't having sex with was it male or female he was interested in males okay he indicated that his parents were not getting along well and that his father was sleeping in the den he also recalled that his mother was hospitalized at this time for one month in a mental health unit he recalled that his father became ill at this time and was hospitalized for several weeks and that his grandparents came to look after him and his brother it was at this age that he had his first thought about trying to capture a male to be with him he reported that he had noticed a man who jogged along a road and he was attracted to him he did not know how to meet this man except forcibly so he devised a plan by which he would knock the man unconscious he reported that he broke a baseball bat in half and waited on the side of the road for the man to come by on that particular day the man did not come by I asked him what he would have done had he captured the man and he told me that he would have taken him into the woods and laid down with him it was at this point that jeffy's paraphilic fantasies began why do you say that because he told me that his fantasies then involved forcefully having complete control over someone over another person but the statement that you made it was at this point that Mr D's paraphilic fantasies began is your opinion not what he said to you correct oh Jeff did not use the word paraphilic fantasy so it was your conclusion that now we've got him into paraphilia right Jeffrey basically said it was at this point that he started having sexual thoughts about knocking somebody out laying with them and being sexual with him I want you to finish the rest of this paragraph and then I think we should take a break uh the object of the fantasy would be a NIC looking male excuse me I think I I we got a quote right after you said this is when when they began he REM maybe you did say it he reported the fantasies involved and then you have a quote um yes Mr Bo I said it but I I didn't emphasize that it was in quotes quote forcefully having complete control over someone um the object of this fantasy would be a nicel looking male and the physique was particularly important and Jeffrey um underscored that in the interview he wanted to kiss the man lay with him and perhaps engage in oral sex now I think we're going this would be a good time of breakan minutes