Download Subtitles for Jeffrey Dahmer - Dr. Judith Becker PT2

[Music] Point um he did not articulate to me that he was aroused by or had fantasies by uh cutting something uh or um feeling any degree of arousal by anything that was still uh living and might be injured okay continue on please um I asked him whether or not he had any sexual contact with his friend named Jay and he indicated uh he claimed that there were not he denied I'm sorry he denied that they had engaged in any sexual activity um he claimed that there were not changes in the nature of his sexual fantasies at this point in time in discussing this area of his life uh he spontaneously recalled that one girl in his Latin class had committed suicide and another girl had shot herself he remembered thinking that he did not know why anyone would want to kill themselves at this age or during the teenage years what significance is that well that um uh that it was just so uh alien and alien to him and this is the way most most youth feel you know that they've got a lot to live for um and he felt he had a lot to live for um during the summer of his 18th year he recalled that his parents divorced his father moved into a motel and his mother uh took his younger brother and moved uh Jeffrey was left alone in the house he recalled that his father began dating another woman um Jeffrey recall being depressed and tried to deal with his feelings by drinking uh alcoholic beverages and smoking pot he noted that it was during his senior year that he began having fantasies about finding a hitchhiker killing him and having sex with him however he recalled that was not able to act on those fantasies because he did not have a car and there had been people at home until that point in time uh after his high school graduation in the summer of 78 or 79 um Jeffrey was unclear of the year he reported that his mother decided to move to Wisconsin and take his brother uh Jeffrey said that she made him promise not to tell his father where she was moving to let me ask you whether or not his mother invited him to go along also or not um uh it's my understanding um and this was I I don't think I asked Jeffrey this in the interview I think I read it in one of the police reports that his mother had asked Jeffrey to go along um but Jeffrey elected not to go did Jeffrey indicate to you that he felt abandoned when his mother left or not he did not say that uh that he felt abandoned just that he he didn't use that word he used the word word that he felt depressed he felt what depressed okay continue on please in the summer of 1978 um he then had a car and was living alone at the house he had been drinking and was returning home when he saw a hitchhiker The Hitchhiker was not wearing a shirt and he debated about whether or not to pick him up he finally decided to pick this man up uh the man's name was um and it's all right to mention the names of the victim not his name was Steven Hicks who was approximately 19 years of age Steven Hicks got into the car and agreed to go back to the house uh with to Jeffrey's house Jeffrey reported that they talked and smoked some marijuana he reported that it was clear to him that Steven Hicks was not gay however he wanted to keep him there while Steven was sitting on the bed Jeffrey hit him in the head with a barbell and then strangled him with that barbell Jeffrey recalled having smoked one or two joints and had consumed a 12pack of beer that day he reported that he decided to hit Steven when he learned that he was not gay because he wanted to keep him with him at this point in time in the as a clinician getting his history has he now fulfilled his fantasy yes he has this is the first time first time okay go ahead in thinking back Jeffrey stated that if he had only taken a different route that episode would not have happened he stated that he felt it was almost like it was set up to occur after he knocked and if I might just make a comment there Mr Bo what is of interest to me and I just picked it up is that if you recall when I was um relating the story about his friend in school who then told the principal he used about the choking he used the same phrase that he F that felt that he would uh set up and it's the same here after he knocked Steven Hicks out he took his clothes off and masturbated when it became dark he took Steven's body to the crawl space laid him down and left him there he reported he could not sleep and felt very nervous about what he had done and about being apprehended he reported that he masturbated while standing over the body and ejaculated on the body um at this time being a clinician assuming all these facts were brought to your attention other than the fact that he had just committed a homicide uh it's clear that his was a very deeply troubled person absolutely continue on please may I make a comment yes um uh Jeffrey during my interview with him it was my perception that he had difficulty uh discussing in detail the specific um sexual acts that he engaged in with his victims after death um when I arrived here on Sunday I met with Jeffrey again and I have uh during that interview uh I asked him again about certain specific sexual acts and I have obtained um more information so if you would like I could uh supplement that with my statements regarding the specific sexual act at the end please okay continue on um he reported that he knew that he knew that Steph was not gay because he had talked about his girlfriend Jeffrey reported that he quote um had a driving compulsion to do this end quote uh that is to knock stepen Hicks out and to keep him Jeffrey reported that he tried to sleep um but wasn't able to do it the next morning he went to the store and purchased a large hunting knife and he went to the crawl space and dismembered the body he cut off the arms and legs he recalled opening up the belly at this juncture this is the first time he opens up the belly of anything other than the dead animals right that's correct you don't ever see him using a knife on any other uh himself or any of his friends this is the first time um he did not report to me that he had ever used a knife on anyone else or on himself or for any reason no did he have to go purchase the large hunting knife um you know I don't recall asking him whether he had purchased it or whether the knife was there well your your report say the next morning he went to the store and purchased then there it is okay continue on please at 3:00 a.m. as he drove to the dump he was pulled over by police for driving left of the center line he indicated that he passed the sobriety test I'm sorry for driving left of center line uh he indicated that he passed the sobriety test the policeman shined the flashlight in the back seat of the car and noticed the trash bags Jeffrey told him that he was taking the trash to the landfill he reported that there was a slight odor because he had had the body for one or two days the policeman let him go Jeffrey turned around and went home and put the bags in the crawl space he brought the head upstairs laid it on the floor and masturbated in front of it the next morning he put the bags behind the house in the woods he burned the clothes of the victim and then threw the knife and Steven's necklace into the river I asked Jeffrey how he felt about this about those actions and he reported that he was high strung nervous apprehensive and thought a lot about what he had done he reported that at this point his drinking increased and he would cry when he was drunk he then went he subsequently went to Ohio State University for 3 months he stated that he quote flunked out end quote he reported that during this time he drank all of the time by this time his father had moved back into the house with his new wife Sher his father and Sherry thought it would be a good idea for Jeffrey to join the Army I asked him if he knew it at this point I asked him if he knew that it was wrong to take another's P another person's life and he reported that he knew that it was wrong at age 18 he entered the Army and signed up for a three-year enlistment he subsequently served two and a half years of that enlistment he reported that he did his basic training in Alabama they were not allowed to drink during the four weeks of their basic training but then they were allowed to drink he reported that one night he came back drunk and became ill two other army men started beating him up for getting the troop in trouble by getting drunk Jeffrey reported that his eard drum was broken as a result of this beating he did not tell his commanding officers about the beating however he felt that he wanted to get back at these men he did not and and he repressed his anger he continued to drink throughout his military enlistment he spent 2 years in Germany and described his stay there as quote a drunk in Paradise end quote he reported that he drank constantly and mostly beer he stated he felt frustrated sexually and that he was attracted to some of the men but felt he could not act on that attraction he went to Frankfurt and bought pornographic material in the bookstores there most of the Magazine's profile bodies of male 16 years of age and older he took care of his sexual drive via these magazines he reported that his fantasies were still there but his life was so regimented and he drank so much that he satisfied himself through pornography and masturbation he reported that he was kept quite busy in the military after work he would go to bars and to the liquor stores and buy liquor at Half Price He had made some friends and he would go to restaurants with them and talk he reported not having engaged in any consensual sex while in the military he reported that he was able to control his impulses through alcohol the regimentation of the military pornography and masturbation at age 21 he left the military he then he wanted to go someplace warm and sunny and consequently he went to Miami Florida where he stayed from March 81 to September 81 he reported that he ran out of money and would sleep on the beach he worked at a sub that should be subshop one of those submarine sandwich shops about 7even days a week he reported that he worked so much and drank so much that he did not have time for anything else he befriended a woman from England who worked at the same sub shop and they would go to dinner together he reported that this was a good friendship in September of 1981 he moved back with his father and remained there for 2 or 3 months he reported that he dug up the remains of Steven Hicks smashed them and Scattered them in the woods he reported that he was still drinking at this time and that his parents became quote Fed Up end quote with his drinking they thought it would be good for him to go to his grandmother's house who lived in West Alice Wisconsin and help her with her chores he did not want to go but they insisted at this point he was drinking about a sixpack a day he reported that things worked out all right by going to live with his grandmother I'd like to stop at this time and ask you two questions first of all you read the police report the confession yes H Jeffrey dmer indicated to the police that he disposed of Mr hicks's bodies totally completely within a short period of time after the murders he's telling you that it was two and a half years later what do you know from what you've learned to be the fact of that well I I think and again um even in my interviewing uh Jeffrey with this many victims sometimes there would be a degree of confusion um as to exactly how many days he kept um the body and sometimes even in terms of of which victim he victimized at what point in time so that might be an explanation but I wish to ask you this is Jeffrey dmer has all of these fantasies and does all the things you've got us up to this point and now he kills a human being and he keeps the head and he does the terrible things he does with that body what effect does this have on him as he's going along based upon the psychological profile that you have as he continues on in his life with the knowledge that he has done something as terrible as terribly grotesque as this well what Jeffrey told me was that he tried not to think about it I mean he he tried to put you know this horrible act behind him um and it was not something he he wanted to be reminded of as a clinical psychologist based upon your knowledge and experience and assume all the mechanics that you've told us about in Jeffrey D's uh life are in order as he approaches the killing the Mr Hicks is he after killing Mr Hicks is he going to be successful and putting that out of his mind well um the fact the fact is he was not successful in putting it um out of his mind and he was not successful after a period of time in being able to not act on uh his sexual interest my question is if a if a normal person I'm saying psychologically average normal person were to have for whatever reason done exactly what Mr dmer did that is murder Mr Hicks without any of the other problems that led up to that just on an Impulse kill somebody like that what kind of effect would you as a clinical psychologist expect to have that have that on the mind of a person with a conscience as they try and go along in their normal life's activity having done something as horrendous if they had specul a on a number of grounds now I will allow it if the witness uh indicates that she's able to testify to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty with those parameters if you're not able to tell us if you are tell us you know it's uh I guess first of all um I would like to think that normal people don't kill other people um so it's difficult for me you know to say if a normal person I would want to ask you did this normal person kill somebody intentionally did they kill them in self-defense I would need a lot more information and actually would like to interview that normal person okay let's continue on then with where we at what is it after he moves to us Alice you asked him about his stepmother I asked him how he felt about uh his stepmother mother and he reported that she was outspoken and gregarious uh he indicated that he has a good relationship with her at the present time that is the time I was doing this interview and he indicated that his his stepmother and his father had visited him several times uh since he had been imprisoned um at this point in the um interview uh again I was interested in finding out more about um Jeff's biological mom uh and so I asked him about his mother um and all that he stated was that she worked with AIDS patients at this point uh after he said that um he discussed his suicidal ideation and again that's not a phrase that Jeffrey used but what is a suicidal ideation when people are thinking about taking their own lives or having their life taken he brought that up excuse me he brought that up yes tell us about that what he said to me was quote I would like if a doctor gave an order for anesthetics end quote what did that mean to you that he didn't want to live okay continue on he stated that he has felt this way since his arrest he stated that it feels like there has been a nuclear explosion in his personal life and all of this seems unreal to him he stated that he has not made a suicide attempt although he would know how to and reported that when he is allowed to shave he could simply cut his jugular Jeffrey reported that he would like this trial to be over with as quickly as possible he has not wanted to read any information regarding the publicity surrounding the case he reported that he had not seen radio TV or newspaper since his arrest uh I then got him back on track in a sense in terms of my history taking he reported that age 22 he had been out of work for one year and was receiving unemployment compensation he stated that he was drinking a lot lot and looking for work he would do work around the house for his grandmother and indicated that he had a nice relationship with her his father would come to visit them on holidays he continued to have fantasies regarding capturing people at that time but he controlled them through pornography his fantasies his fantasies I asked him about the nature of the pornographic material he had and he stated that they were about gay issues some just showed male bodies and others acts some had bondage but he didn't purchase these can you tell you why not um I well I want to be precise about this okay I think what he said was that he didn't interest him okay okay um he stated that at this point the incident with Stephen Hicks had begun to fade I asked him if he had ever had any dreams or nightmares about Steven he reported reported that he had not what's the significance of that well um you had asked me before about if a person had taken the life of another person how might it affect them um and for some people when tragic things occur or they make tragic things occur uh they might you know be wrestling with it in their sleep um and and he was not he did not have any uh dreams or night terrors about this what is what is the significance of Jeffrey D at this age having done the things that he the thing that he did what is the significance of him not dreaming about Mr Hicks well um Jeffrey had said that it uh what I think it is I don't know for sure what the significance is Mr Bo okay I think you have to tell us to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty so if you can't just continue on yeah I I guess what I would be most comfortable saying is that um for a lot of people when there are conflicts sometimes it shows up in their dreams was not showing up in his dreams continue on please um he stated that he had no friends was isolated depressed and lonely he also reported in terms of meeting someone that he was reluctant to go to um video booths because he was naive at age 23 he obtained a job at the plasma center as a FLOTUS he held this job for a period of one year he reported that this was a lowp paying job he did not like the work and he was ultimately fired for poor performance he stated that he lost touch with his mother for about six years this was between the ages of 21 to 27 and during this period he did not have very much in the way of contact with his brother um he continued to frequent sexually explicit bookstores and his fantasies remain the same over the period of Ages 23 to 25 and after he lost his job he decided to change his life around he went to church with his grandmother and he stated that he was able to repress his fantasies and desires he tried to stop masturbating and actually decreased his masturbatory activity to one time per week he reported that he had felt guilty and consequently stopped fantasizing he told me that he knew that his fantasies were still lurking but he tried to lead what he described as a quote straight it should say and straight and narrow life end quote at age 25 he was reading a book in a library when a man came by and dropped a note in his lap the note saide meet me in the bathroom I'll give you a [ __ ] end quote Jeffrey stated this was the first time he had been propositioned and thought it was a strange thing to happen and he also thought that this was bizarre he stated that at this point his desires came back and the urges started to grow stronger and stronger 2 months after this he reports that his control broke down he began drinking frequenting the book stores and feeling guilty his church attendance dropped off and he gave up trying to resist the urges he stated that he started going to video rooms meeting people and having sex he discovered gay bars and went to them he reported that at this point magazines were not enough the compulsion was very prevailing and he failed in his attempt to resist it he stated that he began going to bars approximately three times a week but mostly on the weekends during this time he was employed it's okay to say the type of Industry Mr Bo he was employed at a chocolate factory where he mixed chocolate he subsequently worked at the Chocolate Factory for a period of 7 years while working at the Chocolate Factory he made some friends but did not socialize with them after work in essence his life consisted of working and on weekends going to bookstores gay bars and bath clubs he reported that at the bath the notion was quote sex anything goes end quote he reported that he used condoms some of the time he stated that he liked being the active person in sex that he only allowed anal penetration once or twice because it hurt him he reported not using the name of the drug I will not okay than all right uh he reported that he started using and I'll just say a drug that had sedating effect sleeping pills I he started using sleeping pills during this period because some guys wanted to perform anal saxs and he did not want to this was a way of keeping them specifically he did not want to be the recipient of anal sex and consequently if he were to drug the person they would then fall asleep and he would not have to participate in anal sex where he was the receptive partner that is where the person would put their penis in him he reported that he would go to the baths on weekends and have approximately three or four Partners but would never leave with anyone he stated it was not possible to have a relationship because he was still living at his grandmother's house he indicated that he tried to control the compulsion and went to a store at closing time oh uh okay he was trying to control his compulsion so he went to a store when it was about to close he hid out in the store and then he stole a mannequin from the store and brought it to his house he kept this mannequin for two weeks he would stand over the mannequin and masturbate his grandmother saw the mannequin and asked him where he got it he then took the mannequin out and disposed of it in another attempt to control his sexual fantasies and behaviors he began to screen the obituaries and went to a f funeral home to find a male of the physique and age that he was attracted to he found one and the deceased was 18 years of age he then went to the graveyard and was going to dig up the body but the ground was too hard he reported that while he was in the graveyard a dog barked and an owl hooted and he found this to be rather eerie and he left he reported that he made attempts to resist his impulses but they were useless the obsessions and compulsions were his main focus and the only time that brought him pleasure the only things of the only the only things I'm sorry thank you he reported that he thought about them all the time I asked him at this point about other paraphiliac behaviors paraphiliac meaning sexually deviant he told me that he had exposed himself approximately five or six times before being arrested and that the targets were always teenage boys he stated that he would have preferred to have exposed himself uh to non miners but it was safer exposing to younger boys he exposed himself and masturbated in the park and was arrested for lewdness to a 13 and 14-year-old boys he reported that he never proposition them that is I asked him if he had he was evaluated and placed on probation and saw a doctor should I just say a therapist or no her name is not Dr Rosen for a period of one year for therapy he stated that he was resentful at having to see Dr Rosen and he felt that he had things under control consequently he felt he could quote give her a snow job and get it over with end quote he reported that he was defiant up to the point of sometime s turning his back on Dr Rosen and facing the wall he did not feel that he could get anything positive out of the therapy now Mr Bole there are two pieces of information that may be of relevance but are not in my notes would you just read them in conso will understand okay to tell you what those two pieces are okay one is what's not in my notes is is there's another form of paraphilia uh called Fage that means to rub and people who rub their bodies against other people who have not given them permission to do that and uh uh a number of years ago uh at some kind of event I don't recall if it was a concert or not um he rubbed his his body up against a couple of guys who were at that uh that concert and that was the only time at least that he reported that um that he did that but that's to a live person live person conscious person a conscious person um the other I um subsequently asked uh uh Jeffrey what was the nature of the therapy that he received at this point that is when he went into therapy what was the focus um he had been arrested for public lewdness to miners um so I was wondering if if that was the focus of therapy that is was the focus dealing with the behavior of exposing himself to young boys he reported that was not the focus of the therapy the focus of the therap y was on um his drinking behavior when he entered the therapy so so his therapy uh from what he said was focused on something other than the paralytic problem go ahead at age 20 oh I'm sorry he denies engaging in other forms of paraphilic behavior including voyerism transvestism transexualism and uh telephone scatalogia those are all other forms tell us what they are what's wary keeping Toms people who um uh uh transvestism is uh individuals uh who like to dress in the clothing of someone of the opposite sex uh transsexualism that's actually an individual um who believes that they are the person of another sex so I said do you feel that you are a woman trapped in a man's body he said he was not uh telephone scatalogia that's obscene phone calls okay at age 26 he reported that he was heavily into the bath clubs he bought a large TV and vcr and began buying pornographic videos these consisted of stri teas acts and what he called quote heavier sacks end quote he started drinking on weekends and would consume 24 cans of beer over a Friday and Saturday well that be 24 cans total or total over 12 a day if he split them right I I don't know that it came out exactly to be 12 a day but he said over that weekend 24 Canad um he stated that he began working on Sunday evenings after a year of being a member of a bath Club his membership was revoked because he used pills and Liquor on the premises while at the bath house his interest was quote finding the best looking guy end quote laying and touching him and listening to his heartbeat did did he explain why this listening to the heartbeat was an important factor in a no did you ask him no okay go ahead um sometimes he would fall asleep with the person he reported that it costs $10 a night to stay in a room at the bath club and a dollar for each additional hour he reported that at the bath Club a person could get a double or single room with mirrors tables a lock on the door and some rooms had videos he reported that at this time he was working the night shift at the Chocolate Factory would go to the bars on weekends usually around 2 a.m. he reported that once he got to the bath house he would find a person and then lay next to the person and mastbate and engage in what he call quote light sex end quote he reported that most of the men he met there did not want just the light sex but wanted what he call quote heavy sex end quote he stated that once the person was asleep he did not feel quite so rushed or pressured with the person he reported that he would fix a drain in which he would put approximately five sleeping pills and this would keep the person asleep for approximately 8 hours he stated he would stay with the person staying awake for about 3/4 of the time and then he would sleep with the person usually he would masturbate three times during that period he reported that he never injured anyone and never recalled attempting to strangle any of these men that he stayed with at the bath house he stated that once he was in the room he would have some conversation with the person mix them a drink and kiss them the person would then get groggy and the person would then fall asleep he indicated that he would only experience an erection about 10% of the time when the person was in an awakened State he reported that once the person fell asleep he had complete control and could do what it and could do what he wanted at his leisure he did not have to entertain the person and he felt that he could leave the room if he wanted to he indicated that he had drugged 10 or 15 people before the management learned what he was doing subsequently his membership was revoked he then started using a local hotel room and he stated that at this point the bath house had been a much more controlled environment well he's telling you that when they're in awakened State he can only do something 10% of the time he could only get an erection 10% of the time did you ask ask him about the other times when they were asleep yeah when they were asleep he was able to get erections and I think it's somewhere here in my notes it was either 90 or 100% of the time and of course he told you that during the time they were asleep he was masturbating three times yes he was okay continue on please um between the ages of 26 and 27 he started taking men to hotel rooms um and again there's a piece of information missing here Mr Bole um actually before Steven Tumi he had taken approximately nine men to hotel rooms he report all of those left none of those were he didn't murder any of them did he did he harm any of them no he didn't self-report murdering or harming any of them did he give them drinks with with pills in them or not he did yes okay continue on he reported that these were regular hotels he met Steven Tumi his second victim at closing time time at a gay bar he went to the hotel room with Steven and engaged in consensual sex he reported that he made a drink that was 150 proof rum with Coke Steven then fell asleep after half an hour he reports blacking out and waking up in the morning Steven was in bed on his back Jeffrey recalls being on top of him he reported that Steven's head was over the side of the bed and there was a bruise on his chest he stated that he Jeffrey had a bruise on his arm Jeffrey was shocked when he saw that Steven was dead he stated that he had no intention of murdering him and he stated that the bottle of rum was missing from the room Jeffrey stated that he did not engage in sex with Steven after he was dead and then I go on to name the hotel well that's right that's known as the Ambassador Hotel but but the fact of the matter is he did not engage in sex with him while he was in the hotel after death um actually after death he did engage in sex with this person he engaged in sexual acts after death with every single one of his victims I I don't recall however if it was there at that hotel okay he stated that seeing Steven dead brought back memories of 1978 and his first victim Steven Hicks he stated that he had paced the floor felt horrified shocked and frightened and could not believe this had happened he then put the body in a closet and went to a mall he bought a suitcase and subsequently put the victim inside of the suitcase he then rented the room for another night at 1:00 a.m. he checked out and took a taxi to his grandmother's house he kept the body in the fruit sell for approximately 9 days one day while his grandmother was at church he laid the body out and according to Mr dmer quote slid open the belly and masturbated this was exactly the same behavior that Mr dmer had engaged in with his first victim I asked him if this had brought back memories and he stated that when he had cut open his first victim he was surprised at the color of the different organs he then purchased triple bag trash cans and again I'm I apolog ol to the family members and to the jury um cut off the Flesh of his victim into what he described as fist-sized pieces and put 25 lbs into each bag he reported that he saved the skull and put the Torso in an old sheet and then smashed it with a sledgehammer Mr dmer mentioned that there were two oh I'm sorry this continues I'm sorry that interview then ended for that day yes it did and you started up the next day uh when I saw Jeffrey the next day he said that there were two Bibles that he had in his room um that is at the prison a study Bible and the new King James Bible and there was a passage in one of the books that he wanted me to see consequently he asked if the guard would be able to bring the Bible down later on that day the guard did bring the Bible down and he showed me the passage of the book and I will comment on that later in regard to his second victim Mr to me Jeffrey put the bags in a trash disposal he reported that he kept the skull and called a taxidermist he then boiled and bleached the skull and kept it for one week he would view the skull and masturbate in front of it he reported that with this victim he recalled engaging in light sex initially and then after he realized that he was dead he masturbated on two occasions prior to disposing of the body he stated that he felt depressed and anxious and this incident triggered his complete moral decline I asked him at this point whether or not he thought his victims whether or not he thought about his victims and he reported that when images started to come back he felt uncomfortable and he tried to dissociate because of these uncomfortable feelings he tried not to think about them at age 28 he met his third victim James docor who we thought was approximately 16 years old and who he thought was an American Indian he was working at the Chocolate Factory at that time and was living at his grandmother's you're talking about dmer was living working at the factory I'm sorry yes go ahead okay um he reported that he was paying his grandmother $400 a month for rant and was helping her with the chores such as weeding the garden according to Jeffrey she was glad when he brought her chocolate from the Chocolate Factory according to Jeffrey he had been at a bar on on a Saturday night he was standing in front of a bus stop and saw an attractive male he assumed that this male had been drinking and asked him if he wanted to spend the night for $50 the victim agreed and took a bus to his home when they said that's the grandmother's home um they sat in the living room while his grandmother was asleep they laid together kissed and engaged in oral sex the male said that he had to be back by morning and Jeffrey did not want him to leave so he fixed him a drink when the victim fell asleep he strangled him after he was dead Jeffrey laid with him for a while and then had anal sex he placed the body in the fruit cell and put a blanket over him the next morning he ate breakfast with his grandmother and she went off to church he kept the third victim's body for one week during this period of time he would lay with him and masturbate at the end of the week he laid laid the body out and according to Jeffrey quote def fleshed it end quote he kept the skull and viewed it he stated that he may have masturbated in front of the skull but does not remember he reported that the bleach solution he had used was too strong and the skull started crumbling according to Jeffrey his compulsion was in full swing at this time he however he was attracted to this third victim and wanted to keep him his fourth victim a Hispanic male approximately age 21 named Richard Guerrero Jeffrey was at the Phoenix bar at closing time he propositioned this victim offering him $50 they went to Jeff's bedroom laid there and drank they had light sex and Jeffrey then fixed him a drink and subsequently strangled him light sex according to Jeffrey consisted of caressing kissing and mutual masturbation he reported that he did not get an erection I'm sorry I think you said did not your report says he did he did he I'm sorry he did get an erection according to Jeffrey the actual Act of strangling is not arousing to him he then took the body to the basement defleshed it put it in a trash bag and saved the skull he kept the skull for several months and brought it to his 24th Street apartment when he moved there he reported that the police never found the skull he left his grandmother's home because he wanted to live on his own and because once his grandmother had commented on his bringing a young man to her home this made him feel uncomfortable and he made up a story about why the young man was there one month after he moved he ran into a young Asian male and invited him to take invited him to his home to take pictures Jeffrey offered see um Jeffrey reported that he took pictures of the young male and his underwear and then offered him a drink the young male then left went home and told his parents according to Jeffrey he did not plan on killing this person he just wanted to take pictures and engage in light sex Jeffrey was subsequently arrested placed on one-year work release and given 5 years probation he reported that this rest quote scared the hell out of me end quote according to Jeffrey the reason he did not plan to kill him was that he had to go to work that night and that helped him control his compulsion his fifth victim was Anthony Sears approximately 25 years of age who Jeffrey defined as half black and half white at the time that he met this victim he was still going to bars was approached and was approached by Anthony Sears Jeffrey invited him back to his home and did not offer him money they were given a ride to jeffy's Grandmother's house where he was staying by a friend of the victim Jeffrey reported that they engaged in light sex he had given this victim a drink mixed with a sleeping pill the victim fell asleep and Jeffrey strangled him at this point in the interview I asked Jeffrey whether or not his arrest had not served as a deterrent to further engaging in necrophilic Behavior Jeffrey reported that the compulsion had been so strong he had killed a victim right after the arrest and prior to being incarcerated he Mast masturbated on this victim and also had anal sex with him Jeffrey laid for one and a half to two hours with the victim he severed the head and disposed of the body and save the genitals he wanted to preserve the head and put it in a 10 gallon pale with a lid he soaked the head in genitals in acetone which served to quote mummify them end quote he reported that they dried for two weeks subsequently he would hold the head in his hands and masturbate according to Jeffrey the head represented the essence of the person I asked him if he spoke with the head and he reported that he may have but he didn't recall what he had said he did not take any pictures of the head at this point Jeffrey purchased a big black I'm sorry he purchased a black table for a temple that he was going to build it wasn't it was to be an area of worship to give him more control financially socially and in every area of his life it was to be a center for quote Gathering energy end quote he reported that he had been attending occult book shops and had purchased a book The Satanic Bible Jeffrey had purchased this table prior to going to prison he had spray painted his fifth victim's skull with a granite compound and put the head in genitals in a cosmetic case and stored it at the Chocolate Factory while he was incarcerated at this point I asked him about the ethnicity of his victims he stated that 10 of his victims were black and seven were not he stated that this victim oh I'm sorry he stated that his victims were Hispanic black and Asian and white and white he also reported that five were not homosexual Jeffrey targeted people whose physique and looks were particularly attractive to him so in cases that and so in some cases that would be an ethnic minority and in some cases it might be a person who was heterosexual Jeffrey was released from prison after nine months he then took the skull from the cosmetic case and took the flesh off of it but saved the skull he liked and save the genitals in the scalp because he stated that this victim had a nice head of hair he stated at this time quote maybe I was born too late maybe I was an Aztec end quote I want to ask you a few questions about this U last paragraph what's the Aztec aspect of this did you ask what he meant by that I did ask I asked Jeffrey what uh what was the meaning of that to him and he he said that he had an understanding that Aztec would um preserve uh parts or all of the dead now going back to what he said earlier to you about this black Temple for a temp black table for a temple what it was this area of worship to give him more control financially socially in every area of his life how is that going to be accomplished by doing a temple of worship um that was not clear to me and um I don't know whether it was not clear to Jeffrey or he had difficulty articulating it but um other than Jeffrey at that point said to me uh let me make I think it was at that point uh let me make a drawing for you of what that would be and then he uh produced a drawing which he gave me we'll get to that a little later okay did you understand what he meant that it was to be a center for quote Gathering and well I I have to tell you Mr Bo that sounded very psychotic like to me um however as you know I did not make the diagnosis of thosis but people who have thought disorders um uh will sometimes talk about this a center of worship to get special powers um Etc so initially that was what um I thought but I so while the behavior appears to me psychotic like uh Jeffrey says he would be getting special energy but he wasn't hearing any voices or people telling him to do this in a sense so therefore you did not find psychosis that's correct and and but you made these notes because they they were like psychosis it appeared to me psychotic like Behavior okay continue please I asked oh I'm and then I said I asked Jeffrey whether or not he heard any voice sit talking to him he stated that he had not uh he spontaneously said quote but the unspoken compulsion was painful end quote um he also stated that after his release from prison he purchased a griffin what's a griffin um it's a little figure and I think in some of the photos that you the police have of his apartment there are some pictures of them I must acknowledge I I don't have that great a knowledge of the uh a cult and I'm I'm not certain what the functions of of griffins are go ahead at age uh 29 um he met his sixth victim uh cash D Raymond Smith is what I have in my notes um he had moved to 25th Street and was back working at the Chocolate Factory he began going to the bars again he ran into Cash D who we thought was a black male prostitute and offered him money to go home with him while at his home cash D said he wanted more money Jeffrey gave him a drink laid with him and then once he was asleep strangled him at this time Jeffrey stated that he began to watch the movie Return of the Jedi and he stated that he identified with the Emperor who was the head of the Federation he identified with this Emperor because he had power and control he would watch this movie while the victim was in his house he reported that he purchased yellow tinted contacts to be like the character in Return of the Jedi and he would wear the contacts to the bars he indicated that some of the people at the bars told him that he had nice looking eyes he stated that he wanted to be the emperor he also wore these contacts sometimes during the week but not to work he took this victim and would lay him on the black table in various poses he took pictures of the victim masturbated in front of him he kept the victim for two days and he placed him in these different poses in in order to accentuate his physique according to Jeffrey he did not engage in anal sex with this victim but he did masturbate on his body he kept the skull and spray painted it he took the body into the bathroom dismembered it and placed the remains in the garbage he kept the skeleton because he was not able to smash it he purchased an 80 gallon Kettle and box of silx he boiled parts of the body for one hour to clean the flesh off he rinsed off the bleach and dried the body out he then had a complete skeleton he reported that his interest in the occult had intensified at this point and that full range was given to his fantasies he stated that cash D had been a very good-looking male male he continued to drink and was drinking a 12pack each day of the weekend and talk with him about the motivation for his behavior he reported that he just wanted to keep the person with him and did not want them to leave he recalled that prior to killing cash D he had brought another man back to the apartment and made him a drink as he usually did in a coffee cup the man drank the wrong cup and consequently Jeffrey drank the drink with the sleeping pills he fell asleep and the man robbed him of $300 Jeffrey did not report this incident to the police he reported he would have strangled this victim but the man had taken the cup without the sleeping pills after cash D Jeffrey this next one is a juvenile so you can use initials I will thanks after cash D Jeffrey met a man uh a young man with the initials LP who was waiting tables he was Hispanic and Jeffrey believed him to be around 16 years old he propositioned him and the man agreed to go to his apartment they kissed masturbated and watched videos Jeffrey did not have any pills available to him that weekend he went to an army surplus store and bought a mallet he took pictures and had him lay on his stomach he struck him on the back of the neck with the Mallet the guy got up and attempted to leave the apartment and said he would call the the police this male left and then came back in and asked Jeffrey for money for a cab Jeffrey tried to strangle him at this point but then calmed down and they both went into the bedroom Jeffrey called him a cab and he went home Jeffrey said that uh this young male did call the police but the police never followed up on the call what is your belief if you know belief what is it why didn't he kill him why didn't he kill him I have an I have a hypothesis Mr Bole but I um I don't know if this is accurate or or not um this was a young male and it's quite possible that um Jeffrey might have had some notion in his mind that if he killed a very young person um there might have been more done in the way I mean parents would know a young person was missing um maybe going to object that this is based on speculation by ask that the answer be stricted motion granted continue on do um uh Edward Smith a black male aged 25 was his seventh victim uh he met this victim at a bar he reported they had light sex he drugged the man strangled him and took pictures he def fleshed him boiled his skeletons saved the skull and drive dried it out in a closet he disposed of the internal organs but saved the Skull and Bones he did have sex after he strangled the person this consisted of touching laying with him masturbating three or four times over a course of two days Jeffrey stated that he went to Sears and bought a 5 square foot floor freezer with locking top to store the def fleshed bones he also purchased 230 gallon plastic trash bags to put the def fleshed remains in he poured muriatic acid to acidify the Flesh and then flush the remains down the toilet he then placed the two skeletons um in the these gallons two months later he met his eighth victim Ernest Miller a black male in his mid 20s Jeffrey stated that he met this man at the 27th Street Bookstore he proposition Ed and then went with him to his apartment he had only a few pills available while the victim was asleep he thought quote how should I keep him end quote he did not want to put this person through any pain and consequently he stabbed him in the jugular he reported that the victim died quickly he reported that he had to consume Jeffrey had to consume alcoholic beverages before he was able to stab the person he then placed the body on a table and took many pictures he kept the body for several days masturbated on it kissed it and laid with it he then took the body into the bathroom and Def fleshed it he left the body there for a period of time someone in the apartment complex complained about an odor police were called and knocked on a nearby apartment door they never entered jeffy's apartment he finished def fleshing the body saved the head and fleshed the skeleton which he kept for one week he then took the legs heart and kidneys and sliced them and stored them in freezer bags after one week he took the head out and masturbated in front of it I asked Jeffrey at this point where he was obtaining the sleeping pills he reported that he obtained it from a physician he stated that the doctor was worried about him becoming addicted to it he told the doctor that he worked the third shift and had trouble getting to sleep during the day and consequently he needed the medication he saw the doctor once every two months and reported that the pills cost him $30 a monthly I asked him if he ever took the medication himself and he reported quote once in a while end quote Jeffrey made it clear to me that he drugged his victims because he did not want to hurt them or for them to feel any pain Jeffrey did take pictures of this body um according uh to him the body had tipped over and some skin scraped off of the face he reported that he was surprised that the color under the skin was different than the color of the skin he boiled the skull and skeleton and saved it he wanted to save it permanently and was going to use this one Skeleton on his Temple he painted the skull with granite spray paint he tried tasting the Flesh and the heart he bought a tenderizer tenderized the heart and ate it and the muscle meat he reported that it had a beef likee flavor it gave him a sexual thrill while eating it he felt that the man was a part of him and he had internalized him he reported having an erection while eating it he did not ejaculate but did use the pictures to masturbate to ejaculation at age 29 he met David Thomas his ninth victim I think at this point i' like to take a recess a short one about 5 minutes or so courton