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I want to dive right into talking about your  advice on having difficult conversations,   where like in performance review season,   what do you suggest when someone's being  told they're not going to get the promotion? Hope for the future is so important. I know  this is going to be challenging for you to hear,   not going to promote you, but I want you  to know this. It's really important to   me that you're able to succeed in your  career here, and so I want to continue   to help you find opportunities to  build your skills and to advance. You're big on helping leaders understand that  their job is not to make employees happy. They're trying now to be the leader who  everyone loves, but what really needs   to happen very often is, we need to drive  towards results. This employee continuing   to not really do a great job at their job, you  don't want to push them because you don't want   to upset them. You don't want to give them  difficult feedback, so you're just going   to keep hoping it works out. Ultimately,  that leads to the demise of your company. You have some cool advice on just how to make   meetings more effective and how  to especially end the meeting. My three questions to end the meeting are... Today my guest is Alisa Cohn. Alisa is an  executive coach who has worked with C-suite   execs at both startups like Etsy, Wirecutter,  Venmo, and DraftKings, along with Fortune 500   companies like Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, and  the New York Times. She was named one of the   top 50 coaches in the world by Thinkers50 and  the number one startup coach for the past four   years by Global Gurus. What I love about Alisa  is that she gives her clients very specific and   actionable advice. In her conversation, Alisa  shares specific language and phrases that you   can use when having a difficult conversation  with your reports to make these conversations   go much smoother and be less difficult. Also,  three questions you should ask at the end of   every meeting to make the most possible forward  progress after each meeting. Plus, why your job   as a leader isn't to make people happy and what  you should be focused on instead, and a set of   questions that she calls the founder prenup that  you should talk through with potential founders   to make sure that these are the people that you  want to be working with for a long, long time.  There's also so much more advice. If  you're a leader of people or a founder,   and especially if you dread hard conversations,  this episode is for you. If enjoy this podcast,   don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your  favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the   best way to avoid missing future episodes and  it helps the podcast tremendously. With that,   I bring you Alisa Cohn. This episode is brought  to you by Eppo. Eppo is a next generation A/B   testing and feature management platform built  by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern   growth teams. Companies like Twitch, Miro,  ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power   their experiments. Experimentation is increasingly  essential for driving growth and for understanding   the performance of new features. And Eppo  helps you increase experimentation velocity   while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in  a way that no other commercial tool does.   When I was at Airbnb, one of the things  that I loved most was our experimentation   platform where I could set up experiments, easily  troubleshoot issues, and analyze all on my own.  Eppo does all that and more with advanced  statistical methods that can help you shave   weeks off experiment time and accessible  UI for diving deeper into performance and   out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid  annoying prolonged analytic cycles. Eppo also   makes it easy for you to share experiment insights  with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B   testing flywheel. Eppo powers experimentation  across every use case, including product,   growth, machine learning, monetization, and email  marketing. Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny   and 10X your experiment velocity. That's get  E-P-P-O.com/lenny. This episode is brought to   you by Rippling, a single platform to build and  scale your startup on. Rippling handles all the,   can't get it wrong admin work of payroll and  benefits giving you back hours every week,   but it does a lot more than that. Rippling is a  game changer for the entire company with tools   for HR, IT and spend, all built from the ground  up and designed to work together seamlessly.  Just hired someone? Rippling makes onboarding  easy. Whether your new hire is sitting next to you   or halfway across the world, in just a few clicks,  Rippling automatically generates an offer letter,   ships a laptop with the necessary apps and  permissions, and even delivers a corporate   card. An employee needs to update their benefits  contribution. When they do it in Rippling,   the change automatically syncs to payroll. CTO  forgot her laptop in an Uber? Lock it remotely   with Rippling. Many startups I've invested in  like Sprig, [inaudible 00:04:30] and ClassDojo,   use Rippling because it's a force multiplier  for lean teams, helping them eliminate major   headaches and operate their business  more efficiently. For a limited time,   Rippling is giving Lenny's listeners three months  off. To redeem, visit rippling.com/lenny. That's   rippling.com/lenny. Alisa, thank you so much  for being here and welcome to the podcast. Lenny, it's so great to be  here and thanks for having me. I want to dive right into talking about your  advice on having difficult conversations. I   personally dread difficult conversations. I feel  like I practice ahead of these things. I'm like,   "I'm going to say these things. It's  going to go like this," and it never   goes as well as I hope. I always  say the wrong thing. I feel like   this is very relatable. They're called  difficult conversations for a reason. Totally. I know you work with a lot of execs on this  specifically, and what I love is you've actually   come up with a bunch of scripts that help people  make these conversations less difficult. So how   about we talk through some of these scripts  that people can actually start applying? Let's do that. I love that idea. And also Lenny,  as you just said, very relatable and also,   so you're not alone. If I could ask you a  question, if you're picturing a difficult   conversation that you have had, should have, might  have, and you're nervous about, it's hard for you,   can you sum it up? What's hard about it? Because  it's helpful to clarify what is hard about it? Great question. I just don't want to make people  sad and upset, and I worry about their reaction,   how to deal with that, and them just getting  really upset and mad and just like, "Oh,   man. This really made things worse."  So I worry about the reaction, I guess. Okay, about making things  worse or about their reaction? The reaction, just making someone  upset and sad. I don't want to do that. Making someone upset. Okay, good. And again,  you're not alone about that. Just one more   question on that. What's the problem if they're  sad and upset? What does that mean to you? Oh, I love this life coaching we're doing. Yeah,   so it's like what happens  if they get sad and upset? Yeah. I feel like it's stuff that I'm going to have to  deal with. It's like this drama all of a sudden,   this new fire I have to think about. And yeah,   it's like the additional work it creates and also  just, I don't know. Yeah, it's a good question. You can think about it some more, right? I'm  not going to put you on the spot right now,   but just to say for all of us, the  reason they're difficult, to your point,   they're difficult. But we're putting meaning on  things all the time, every day, all the time,   and I think it's important, it's actually helpful  in motivating you to have difficult conversations,   but also in helping them go well. If you can get  to the bottom of what you're putting on top of it,   what you're weighting it with, because I can  understand that again, you are not alone.   I don't want to make people upset. Totally. And also, I would just say on the other hand,   when you're enlightening someone or you're working  out a situation with someone and it's difficult,   if you don't give them the opportunity to hear  what you have to say, if you don't bring this up,   then you're never going to have the opportunity  to help them see something differently or help   them improve or help you improve the relationship  or whatever it is you're trying to do. And so,   I can understand it's a natural thing.  I don't want to make them upset.  No one wants to make anybody upset, but  through that upset on the other side of that,   can often be a whole new possibility and a  whole new revelation, and actually a lot of   joy and freedom. I think that we forget about  all the other possibilities that come out of   difficult conversations and we just land on  these really uncomfortable parts about like,   "oh, it's going to be a lot of extra  work" or like, "They're going to get   uncomfortable or even maybe cry." And  I think it's just really helpful to tap   into what you make it mean and then also  what other possibilities it could mean. I love that. And it's one thing to hear that  and say that, it's another to actually feel that   deeply and feel like I shouldn't be as worried  as I am. I think part of it is doing these enough   times where you're like, "Okay, it's actually not  so hard." And the other is having some of this   support. To make this even more real, let's give  some examples of what we say when we say difficult   conversations. There's like, "You're not getting a  promotion that you thought you would, we're going   to let you go." What other examples or common  difficult conversations that you run across? Those are two very common ones. And then of  course, the most common one is just difficult   performance feedback. Or [inaudible  00:08:56] what we say, quote unquote,   "constructive performance feedback," which we  never made positive. It only is the sort of   things that you're not doing well. I think there  are two flavors of that. One is, "You're screwing   up" and the other is, "Developmentally, I'd like  to see you add something or change something." Yes. And as you say that, one of the other  fears I have is them just disagreeing and   me feeling like maybe it's not right,  maybe I'm wrong and feeling shit maybe.   I didn't see something and then just  looking worse after the whole thing. Yeah. And so then I think what's also really  helpful to, and part of the process that we can   talk about this for sure is getting a difficult  conversation is number one, tapping into what's   uncomfortable for it, for you, about it. And then  number two, also getting your mindset right. So   to say the obvious, are you doing this to  hurt someone's feelings? No, never, right? The opposite. That's not the reason that anyone's  doing it. Sometimes people are giving   the performance feedback or talking about  something that's been bothering them   in order to express themselves and vent. And  actually, that is very helpful to identify   for yourself, that's why I'm doing  it. And then, maybe not do it then,   until you can transform your reasoning. But at  the end of the day, the hope is as a manager,   the reason that you're giving someone this  so-called constructive feedback is because   you're helping them get better. You need them to  change the behavior. They'll never get promoted if   they keep doing that. They'll never be successful  if they keep doing that. And so, it's your job   as a leader and as a manager, to help them out of  that problem and help them do something different. The best story I've heard to make that really  real for me, I think it was Kim Scott when she   came on the podcast. She told a story of, I  think it was Bob, where everyone just knew   he was terrible and it was like, everyone's was  just like knew he was not good and eventually,   the boss had a conversation with him  eight months into it and told him,   "It's not going to work out. You're just doing  a bad job." And he's like, "Why didn't anyone   tell me? I didn't realize that. If you told me, I  would've changed." And everyone assumed he knew.   And so I think to your point, this is to  help the person. It's not not to hurt them. Yeah, a hundred percent. One of my clients, he was  running a division and one of his people was not   doing it right, not doing it right, not getting  the right kind of data, not having to do the   right kind of analysis, whatever it was. We were  talking about it and I said, "Well, how come you   have another feedback with her?" And he said,  "You know, she's just going to cry. She's just   going to cry. She's older, whatever, she's just  going to cry. It's going to be too uncomfortable,   whatever." So we worked, we talked and talked  and talked. I gave him a script. We really worked   it out and he agreed that he would go in and  have that conversation with her, which he did.  And he reported back to me and he was shaken. She  cried. Of course she did. She cried. That's what   he knew she was going to do. And so she was upset  and she went home early and the whole thing. The   next day she came in and she said, "Thank you  so much for telling me that. I wish someone   had told me that 15 years ago. I think I could  have had a different career." And I think that   is so meaningful for all leaders and people who  are responsible for other people to understand   that you're uncomfortable when they start crying,  of course, or they have this difficult reaction   or whatever. But honestly, the only way you're  going to be able to help someone grow in their   career and become the best person they can be  is by leaning into these tough conversations. What I love about the scripts we're going to talk  about, which we probably should transition to,   is it's again, one thing to hear that and be  like, "Yes, okay, I need to do this. I need   to get better at typical conversations. I need to  have that talk without someone that we should let   go." It's another when it's like tomorrow is the  meeting and you're like, "Oh, my God. I have to   have this conversation now." And so, I love that  you actually give people a really simple approach   to how to lay this stuff out in various different  contexts. So let's talk through some of these   approaches and scripts you've come up with. What  do you think would be a good one to start with? Well, we can start with performance feedback and  we can just sort of take a typical example. So   first of all, once you've done your work to  get your mindset right to kind of know what   you're doing it, and then you just really  want to really be able to wrap your mouth   around the words. So what that looks like is  practicing, and the script could be, "You know,   Matilda, I want to chat with you about the  way you're interacting with your peers. So   what I'm hearing from them is that you're missing  deadlines on a regular basis and not letting them   know you're missing the deadlines, and that also  you're not fully keeping your team up to speed.  And so they're kind of confused running around.  Now, we both know that the most important way you   can be successful here and also achieve your  goals is to make sure that you are working   with your peers in a way that's consistent and  that they can count on you and you can count on   them. So I wanted to let you know about this.  I want to certainly hear what you have to say,   but the most important thing is that we leave  this discussion knowing how you're going to   make sure that you're keeping your peers in  the loop and also your team in the loop." Yeah, there's so many elements there that  are really interesting. Just focusing   on what I'm hearing versus just coming from  you or something you've done wrong. It's,   here's what I'm hearing from multiple  sources. I think that helps people. Okay,   it's not just you and just  like, "Oh, my manager hates me." Right. It's like, "Okay, other people are saying  this." And then I love this phrase of,   we both know where it's not just me telling  you this. It's like, "You also know this. I   know you're smart and you also know that this  is, something is wrong here." And then this   goal of, here's what we need to [inaudible  00:14:31]. You're like very clear call to action,   almost action item, like leave this meeting  with, "Let's just be aligned on this thing." Yeah, thanks for calling those out. I hope, and  again, what I'm trying to convey in my tone is   also, "You know what? It's Tuesday. We got to  have this conversation. I'm sure it's going to   end well. I'm not mad." The whole point about  my manager hates me, right? "I'm not yelling   at you." The more even keeled and even matter  of fact you can be about something that's kind   of just run-of-the-mill feedback, the better. And  I think it's just also what I didn't say before,   and I think it's also important is that, as  you are recognizing that one of your jobs is   to give this feedback, is that you have to build  a relationship with people so they can hear you   through the lens of, "Oh, Alisa wants to help me."  Not, "Oh, Alisa hates me. It's always a problem." How did you start that phrase again? Because  the starting is always the hardest part for me.   How do you kick off the conversation?  What was the couple sentences used? I wanted to have a conversation with  you about some things I've been hearing   from your peers about the way that  you all are interacting together. Awesome. So there's an element of, don't  make it feel like a huge deal. Just like,   "I want to have this conversation with  you about something." And it's just like,   "Let's have this conversation and here's what  we want to leave this conversation with." Yes. And I can't stress enough that it's  actually really helpful to also have spent   some time with Matilda or whoever saying, "Great  job on the way that project landed." Or, "Hey,   launches, when they happen  on time and they're smooth,   sometimes we don't notice anything. I want  you to notice, we didn't notice anything.   That's fantastic. You did a good job in that  launch," or whatever it is. Because then,   you've had the conversation with them to give them  positive feedback and point out what's working,   that builds the relationship so that you have  the lens of, "Oh, yeah. When something's working,   they tell me. When something's not working, they  tell me, too." That's how you build trust as well. They want to be criticizing them  [inaudible 00:16:25]. We need to have   another conversation what we're hearing  about, problems [inaudible 00:16:28]. Yep. Obviously, if you say it the same way every  single time, they're going to feel like this   is weird. Do you recommend it's this kind of Mad  Libs approach or is it make it your own as much as   you can? What are kind of the key? Or is it like,  here's actually how you want to say it every time? In my book and when I work with my clients, I  give specific scripts and what I will regularly   say when I'm working with my clients is, "Okay, so  this is how I would do it," and then I'll land it   for them. But they have to make it their own. You  always have to make it your own and I don't think   it's a problem of doing it the same way every  time. It's not like people are going to notice   you because you're talking about different topics,  theoretically. If you have a formula that can work   for you, that's going to motivate you to do it,  that is what's important. And what's important   is that it's neutral, not loading on or not  venting on someone and not unloading on someone. I love that we started with this one because  it feels like the most common one of just your   employee is underperforming and you want to  make sure they understand and adjust. What   if you're not hearing something from a bunch  of people? What if it's just your perception   of their writing? You need to work on your  writing skills or you're coming in late. Is   there another way you phrase it where it's  not, "I'm hearing it from other people?" Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So I'll talk about  writing. I think it would be something like, okay,   "Matilda, part of your job is to be able to create  these documents and I appreciate that you do them   on time. What I've observed is that they can often  be not as structured as I'd like them to be and   they also lack a conclusion. So what I'd love you  to do is look at these three or four examples of   some folks who are doing them really well and see  if you can model your writing on theirs. If you   need to take additional classes or if you need  help in any way, let me know. But ultimately,   I want to get your writing to the level where  everybody is appreciating what you bring to   the table because the level of your writing  really reflects the level of your thinking." Mm-hmm. Wow, I like that. I'd want to follow  your advice if I got that. So the way you   started that is what I've observed, which  also is not like, "Here's what I think" or   "Here's what you just need to do." It's more like,  "Here's what I've noticed, here's what I've seen,   here's what I've observed about what you're  doing." And then it reminds me of, what is it,   nonviolent communication, that whole  framework of just focus on what you see,   not what is wrong with them,  not what they've done. I guess,   is there anything there you want to say of  just the importance of focusing on what you've   heard from people or what you've observed  versus maybe what people often do instead? Yeah, I mean you just really said it and  I think it's such an important point,   observable facts. The idea that this is not a  judgment. This is not... Sort of as less judgy   as possible is also very helpful. It makes it  neutral. It's observable facts and it's also   sort of based on expectations, right? So the  writing is, we expect it to be at a certain   level and it's not that way. And here are the  reasons it's not, the specific reasons, it's not.  The way you interact with your peers, it's  important to be at a certain standard, and here's   why. Because when we all work together, we're  going to be able to execute and when we don't,   unfortunately we won't be able to. So you staying  in sync with them is important and the observation   is that they don't feel fully in sync with you. And so every time we talk about this, it doesn't   become this, "Oh, I don't know. I just feel..."  By the way, some things you have to give feedback   on and they are kind of a feeling and those are  more difficult, but so many things if you do the   work to really think about what is the observable  data, I always ask my clients, what's my evidence   that this is happening? And you have to spend  some time thinking about it, but it's really   worth it because it makes the feedback easier  for you to give and easier for them to hear. Is there anything else along the lines  of this specific type of feedback that   is worth sharing before we move on  to a different type of feedback? Well, I think just that the reason, one of the  many reasons that people have gone uncomfortable   giving feedback is that somebody might  get defensive or they might start crying   as we talked about. And so I have a script  also, which is if someone gets defensive,   which is it's like I'm giving you this feedback  and you're getting defensive and I say, "Well,   let's pause for a second. First of all, I want  you to know that I'm telling you this actually,   just to make you better because I know how  important your career is to you. I know how   important the success is to you and it's important  to me too as your leader. The second thing is,   my observation is that you're getting a little  bit emotional. I want to know if we can continue   having this conversation now or if we need to  kind of pause it. At the end of the day, we   really have to have this conversation and I really  want to see you make changes, but I understand   you might need a few moments to digest it." The importance of that for you is not even what   you say, but that you have prepared and you are  prepared for if someone has that kind of reaction   and that you don't have to, yourself, react to  it. You know, "No, I'm not doing that. No, no,   no, no, whatever." And you can say, "Yes, you  are." Now we're in a fight and that is not cool   for anybody. It's certainly not cool for you  as a leader. So it gives you the opportunity   to recognize that you have another tool  in your toolkit rather than just react. So if you find yourself feeling  defensive or they are just not   hearing and just fighting back, the tool is  just pause. Let's just pause for a moment   and it feels like there's kind of two  parts to which you just shared. One is,   remind them why this is important to them and  why you're talking about this. And then two is,   if there's just emotions kind of taking over,  give them a chance to like, "Let's just pause   and maybe come back to this because maybe you're  not in the right state right now to listen." Yeah, exactly. Sometimes people get upset when you mention like,  "You're getting emotional," or I don't know. Is   that a thing that you deal with of just like, "How  dare you say I'm feeling emotional?" I'm just... I'm not emotional. Why do you think  [inaudible 00:22:31] emotional? Right,   exactly. Yes, of course. Now, when someone's  crying, they're obviously getting emotional.   When they're defensive, it's possible that  you might want to use a different word. I   can see that this is really upsetting  you or this is really triggering you,   or I can see that the temperature between  us has just changed. You could say something   like that. I do think also it's helpful  to know your people because sometimes you   could realize that actually they can deal  with that, but then sometimes you have to   really [inaudible 00:23:00] the delicate words  that you need to use to pause the conversation. Yeah. And I find, to your point, it's helpful  to you too as the person giving it. And I feel   like sometimes, you may be feeling like I should  just pull back and maybe I'm wrong, maybe they're   right, maybe I should stop and instead this gives  you a chance to know I'm actually, I can't. I need   to stay strong about what I believe because  I... You put so much thought and effort into   this already, it's unlikely you're just like,  oh, totally wrong about what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. There's something going on.  There's something going on. And then also,   the whole point about it being a conversation  is that actually it's a conversation. Actually,   Lenny, if you have a different point of view,   I would like to hear it. Let's talk about  it, but we can't keep going on like this,   where I don't feel I can count on you for  whatever it is that we're talking about. So   we need to have this conversation and recreate a  set of expectations between ourselves. Ultimately,   that kind of conversation has the potential to  really build the relationship and build trust,   and that's another reason I encourage everybody to  get over their discomfort and to lean into having   these conversations because on the other side  of that, is a much better, stronger connection. And especially if you do them well. Yes. Following this advice. So okay, so again, if  somebody's feeling defensive, can you again say   how you start that, if you notice that? And then  I'll highlight the two elements again of the... So the way to pause is to actually say,  "Let's just pause for a second because   I'm feeling the energy has changed and I can  see that you're getting a little bit heated   by what I'm saying and I want you to know that I  have no intention of upsetting you. I just want   to be able to talk to you about the things  that are going to help you in your career." Awesome. And I love, again, just the reminder  of here's why this is important to you,   here's the benefit to you and why this will help  you. And then it's like, "Okay, let's just maybe   take a pause and come back to this conversation  if you're feeling like this isn't the best time."   Awesome. Anything else along that line before  we go to another type of a hard conversation? I mean, I can talk all day about this  [inaudible 00:25:06], but I'm happy to move on. Well, let's pick another topic. I know  you have kind of five buckets and types   of conversation. Maybe the promotion one.  That feels like I think we're in performance   review season. It feels like these are  happening a bunch. What do you suggest   when someone's being told they're not going  to get the promotion they expected or wanted? Of course that's challenging. So again,  getting your mindset right, recognizing they're   disappointed, they're going to be disappointed,  recognizing how you felt, the time that when you   didn't get a promotion or whatever. And so kind  of coming to it with some compassion. And also,   you have to get your reasoning right. So sometimes  people think they should get a promotion because   they were here for a year or whatever. Sometimes  people think they should get a promotion because   they're the only internal candidate who's  qualified for this or they might have a sense   of themselves succeeding or achieving that is more  inflated maybe than you see them. So trying to   think about where they're coming from. And then the conversation is just,   "Matilda, I know this is going to be challenging  for you to hear. I know you were hoping to get   that promotion, but I want to let you know that we  are going to actually be looking for an external   candidate. I want to give you a few thoughts  about why. First of all, in discussing this with   my peers, I'm realizing that we need someone  who has done this role multiple times in the   past and has that experience. Number two, I think  it's really important that they have an expertise   in a specific realm that we've identified  as really important. So for those reasons,   we're going to bring someone in from  the outside, not going to promote you,   but I want you to know this. Number one,  it's really important to me that you're able   to succeed in your career here. And so I want  to continue to help you find opportunities to   build your skills and to advance. And then number  two, when we bring this person in, I'm committed   to finding someone who's a great people leader,  who is going to help you build those skills." So a few elements there that stood out to  me. One is just being very upfront and not   bearing the lead. Telling them very early,  "Here's what I've decided." As you said it,   I could see my heart sinking immediately when I  feel that. So at least that's over and then it's,   here's why. And that starts  to help you feel like, "Okay,   I get it. I understand at least how you  thought about this." And then there's the   hope for the future, your painting of,  here's how I can get there eventually. Yes, that hope for the future is so important  and I think sometimes we're such in a rush   to kind of deliver the bad news that we forget  there's a human being over there who needs hope   for the future. And hopefully. If they're a good  employee, hopefully they have hope for the future. I love that. Is there anything  else to that script that you   think is really highlighting or do you  think I touched on the key elements? I think you touched on the key elements. Okay. And again, the way you started is,   I have some bad news for you or I  have some disappointing news for you. Yes, because it's just [inaudible 00:27:50]. Just get right into it. Yeah. Yeah, just get right into it. Yeah. By  the way, the other piece on that might be,   if it's appropriate, I'd love you to digest this  information and then let's talk about it again   next week to see what you've come up with or see  how you feel about it because you want to send,   this is not the script, this is for me to you.  You want to send the, I care about you message   because that's the other thing. In the workplace,  people, they're going through all their feelings,   all their emotions, disappointments. They're  going to go home and tell their spouse,   didn't get the promotion or whatever. It's going  to loom large. It's going to be demoralizing.  When you, as a leader signal a lot, I care  about you, I care about your feelings,   I care that you're disappointed, I care about  your career, you are always going to be able   to help people stay resilient in the face  of setbacks and ultimately, do extra work,   do the right work for you and be engaged in your  company because you've spent the time and energy   making sure they know that even when things are  not going their way, they have an ally in you. What do you do if they just  disagree, if they're just like,   "But I do have those skills and I  don't think this is fair." Thoughts   on responding to that sort of feedback?  I guess, that's the defensiveness stuff. Yeah, that's the defensiveness stuff. And again,  I hope you've done your homework to identify that   actually that person doesn't have those skills and  if there is a [inaudible 00:29:16] for example,   but I do have those skills or sometimes  people, I think more, even more often,   they don't respond to what you just said.  They will instead explain to you that   they've been here for a year or they're the only  internal candidate or their peer got promoted.  Right, they'll sort of explain to you things  which are not part of your decision-making   process and then it's helpful for you to  say something like, "Yeah, listen, Matilda,   I really understand that you were thinking that  after a year, you'd get promoted around here. And   in the past, I do think because of the stage of  our company, probably people have been promoted   at that period. That's not the place we're  at right now. As we scale, we really need to   think about not just what we need for today  and tomorrow, but for the future. And that's   why I want these specialized skills in here. I  think it's going to help the entire company."  So that's an example of a discussion that you  could have. I do have the skills. That's kind   of interesting. I'd love to hear what you  see as those skills. And it's not a problem   to have the conversation right there then, but if  there's a "Yes, I do, no, I don't, yes, I do, no,   you don't," that pushback is never productive.  And so, that's where you want to probably again   take a pause and say, "Listen, I totally hear  you. You and I have a different point of view   about this. I'm not sure if it's productive  to continue to discussing right now. Let's   talk about it again in a week. But I also want  you to know this is a decision that I've made." I love though, when they come back to you and  like, "But here's X, Y, Z." And you're like,   "That's not what I was saying necessarily." I  love that you basically mirror back. I hear what,   I understand you believe, I understand you've  been here for a year. I understand you're the   only internal candidate," like making them feel  very heard. That's a really powerful mechanic   there. That is a good tool. Is there  another script that you think might   be helpful to talk through that is a  common hard conversation people have? Well, the hardest conversation is firing someone. Let's do it. Let's get into it. [inaudible 00:31:13]. I'm willing to get into  it. I just want to say two things about that.   First of all, when you're firing someone,  the hope is that it's not a surprise to   them. You've had multiple conversations with them  that they're not living up to your expectations.   It's essential because the truth is, you want to  create a culture where people are not surprised   by being fired. And that's not even true for this  one person you're dealing with. That's true for   the entire company. So just kind of getting in the  mindset of recognizing that if you shied away from   those conversations, kind of like, "You're the  problem here and you have some catch up to do."  The second thing is that before you fire  someone, I think it's helpful to have the   conversation before the firing conversation  because something you said Lenny is like, "Oh,   but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not sure." And  that bleeds into, "Maybe I haven't been clear   with this person." Regularly with my clients,  I'll say, "Okay, have you been crystal clear   about what you need from this person?" And what  they always do is the hand motion like well,   sort of, but well, maybe. Which means no, which  means no. You've not been crystal clear or you   don't perceive even crystal clear. The way to  make sure that you're crystal clear is by having   the conversation before it comes to that. What that looks like is, "Listen, Matilda,   we have to have a difficult conversation right  now. I've talked to you multiple times about   coordinating with your peers and not having them  surprised about missed deadlines, and I've talked   to you multiple times about keeping your team in  the loop on different things. After six months of   these conversations, I want you to know that  the peers continue to feel like that you're   operating on your own without coordinating  with them. And I continue to hear from your   team that they're not fully on the same page.  I need you to know that this is very important.   I need you to fix this within the next  30 days. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say,   we're going to have to find a way to  part ways because I can't keep this   going with you. I know you have it in you to  change. I value all you bring to the table,   but if you don't fix these things, we're  not going to have a future together." That is very crystal clear. Yes, crystal clear. Yeah. Okay. What do you think of that? Yeah, that was great. So it starts with being  upfront. This is a difficult conversation, just   to set expectations. They're like, "Oh, shit."  And then it seems like you come back to, again,   multiple times this happened, observing here's  what's happening. It's happened multiple times.   I keep hearing from multiple people, [inaudible  00:33:44] be a problem. And so it's just like,   "I need you to know," and you're just very clear.  "Here's what will happen if this doesn't change." Yes. Yeah. And I love that you also give them  a little, there's always that hope for who   they are and how you see them as. They're not  worthless. It's just like, "You are great at   a lot of things. You have these skills. You're  great at blah, blah, blah, but still this is a   big problem." And it's communicating how  critical this is. [inaudible 00:34:08]. Yeah, and it's a deal breaker.  It's a deal breaker. Right? Yeah. If you have so many talents, but  if you can't do these two things,   then it's a deal breaker for all of us. Yeah. And I think it's important to really sort of  see that both. Sometimes people think, "Well,   but I'm so talented." Yeah, but your talents are  not going to make up for these two deal breakers. Yeah. And I feel like I know we were going  to talk about the firing conversation,   but I think this is even more  important than that because hopefully,   this addresses the problem and you don't  need to fire them, which is more valuable. Yes. Yeah, hopefully. But even if you  do, it's actually easier because you've   already had the conversation. Right? They're not  surprised. It's clear. We've had the discussion. Yeah. So basically the script is like, "There's  going to be a difficult conversation. I've seen   multiple times this thing and we've  talked multiple times and it's still   not fixed and here's what I just want  to be very clear about." Is there also   a script you have for just actually doing  the firing or is that less scriptable? Well, the script for doing the firing is again,  please everybody, talk to your HR professional.   Talk to your lawyer. Okay, I'm not a lawyer, I'm  afraid. So you have to make sure that you're all   buttoned up on what you're going to do. But  the conversation is actually very simple,   which is just, "Matilda, we talked about this  multiple times. The last time we had this   conversation, I told you I needed you to make  these changes. You haven't made these changes   and we're going to part ways. So I  have here, Sarah from HR or whatever,   and we're going to talk through the  logistics of that. I'm happy to have a   longer conversation with you, but I want you to  know we've made the decision to terminate you." Feels very reasonable to me. Is there  anything else along these lines? I think what I want to say is that the  conversations you need to have at work are   not just difficult conversations. What I call  them is sort of delicate conversations because   what I think people also shy away from is just  simple praise, specific praise. And I think it's   really important to get in the habit of pointing  out what your people are doing well as carefully   as you need to prepare for pointing out what they  need to improve. And sometimes leaders feel like,   "Yeah, it's all working. It's all working. I  don't have to tell you." Or if I do tell you,   it's kind of like "Good job." Right? One  time a leader or a manager I was doing   in a training program, she said, "I don't like  getting positive feedback. I only like getting   negative feedback." And I said, "How come?" And  she said, "Oh, positive feedback is just like,   oh, good job. Negative feedback, you can  learn something. You get something from it."  So the positive feedback should have the same  standard, which is, "I saw the way you ran that   launch, it was fantastic. All these different  benefits came from it. You're so organized,   keep doing that." Or "The way you're keeping your  peers in the loop, considering you've only been   here three months is extraordinary. I've never  seen someone so communicative. It's fantastic.   Keep doing that. That's really working for you."  If you do that often enough, you do get in the...   First of all, it's positive, obviously. You  become in the habit of getting better at positive   feedback, which is extremely motivating to people  at work. It helps them see their progress because   that person I just mentioned, she's barely keeping  her head above water and she's having trouble   fitting in or whatever, but you come around and  point out the things that are working. Again,   it's very morale boosting. She knows where  she stands, and then one day, if you have   to give her these difficult messages, you've  already sort of laid the reservoir of goodwill. I love giving positive feedback.  It's obviously so much easier,   but to your point, it's like you have to really  think about how to do it well. It's not just a,   it's not that easy if you do it well, which is  a really good point. And [inaudible 00:37:49]   needs scripts for how to give really good  positive feedback and have great conversations. Yeah. That's interesting. There's  less demand for that. How do   I have better great conversations or compliments? Right, right. True. No man. Today's episode is brought to you  by Liveblocks, the platform that turns   your product into a place that users want to  be. With ready-made collaborative features,   you can supercharge your product with  experiences that only top tier companies   have been able to perfect until now. Think AI  copilots like Notion, multiplayer like Figma,   comments and notifications like Linear and  even collaborative editing like Google Docs,   and all of that with minimal  configuration or maintenance required.  Companies from all kinds of industries and stages  count on Liveblocks to drive engagement and growth   in their products. Join them today and give your  users an experience that turns them into daily   active users. Sign up for a free account today at  liveblocks.io/lenny. I want to go on a little bit   of a tangent, something that it's kind of touches  on all the things we've been talking about,   which is, you're big on helping leaders  understand that their job is not to make   employees happy. What is your job instead?  Why do people think this is their job to   make their employees happy and what should they  be thinking instead is their job as a leader? [inaudible 00:39:09], I work with a lot  of founders and so, don't forget that the   entry-level position for a founder is leader,  and they have it, they often not had a lot of   other experiences being a leader or a manager,  and so they're just doing the best they can.   It makes sense, right? And they kind of get all  this information from other people and their HR   leader wants to have a happy engaged workforce  and they don't want to upset people for all   the reasons we talked about, why you don't want  to upset people. Nobody wants to upset people.  And so there's this idea of, they're trying to  now be now be the leader who everyone loves and   makes people happy. So they would often  bend over backwards to make people happy,   to keep people, their morale up. But what  really needs to happen very often is,   we need to drive towards results. And the way  this system is working is not going to drive us   towards results or this employee continuing to  not really do a great job at their job and not   really pushing themselves. And you don't want to  push them because you don't want to upset them,   you don't want to give them difficult feedback,  so you're just going to keep hoping it works out.  Ultimately, that leads to the demise of  your company. I mean, ultimately right,   as you're a startup? If you're not in  a startup and you're a large company,   it still is very subpar performance, obviously.  And you're dancing around hoping and praying   they're going to get there and they don't really  know there's a problem. And so, I think it's very   misguided for leaders to have this notion  that their most important role is to keep   people happy, is to create this high engagement  workforce. High engagement workforce is great.  I think what that comes from is winning culture,  which means we're set up for success. We've got   the structure for success, we have the culture  for success, everyone understands their role,   they know the impact of their role. So doing  the work to figure out and help them figure out   the impact of their role and that when they  work together and achieve these milestones,   they win and then we celebrate the wins and  then we do it all over again. And when you   create that kind of a workforce,  I think it's much more dynamic,   even though sometimes in doing that, you have  to redirect people and ruffle their feathers. Essentially, the way I think about it is  you think making people happy is not having   hard conversations, not pushing them, when  really, it's almost working backwards from,   if we win and are killing it, people will  be happy and what does it take to do that? A hundred percent. And then the right  people are going to want to join your team,   people who like to win and like to get results. Is there a story, an example of  a founder you worked with or that   comes to mind of this kind of where  they thought this was their approach   and then they shifted? Or is there  kind of a pattern you see often? One company comes to mind. One leader I worked  with. Sometimes I think to myself, if I'm writing   a book, the book would start with, "It all started  with the avocado toast," because he wants to do   right by his workforce. And so they have avocado  toast at 10 AM, like tea time kind of a thing. And   it became this great ritual where people would  kind of hang out together and that was great.   And then that turned into other longer periods  of just hanging out together. Again, these are   good things. And that turned into evening socials  and everybody was enjoying spending time together,   but they continued to be not fully clear on what  they were actually supposed to do. And there began   to be kind of a cliquey, gossipy culture of who's  in and who's out. And that would take up a lot of   the socialization time discussions. So rather  than talk about expectations about the work   and about results, and again, the results were  not showing. So it wasn't a lot to celebrate.  They started at a culture committee. So they  had a culture committee to talk about how we   can make people happier around here. And you can  imagine there's now layers and layers of things   where we're trying to focus on engagement and  we're trying to focus on the employees having a   great experience. And the leader I'm working with  is completely sincere. It actually want to have a   great workplace. But I think the misguidedness  was that he hadn't done a great job setting   expectations. He had not done a great job of quote  unquote "codifying their culture" because culture   is not just avocado toast and working together  and having socials, culture is things like,   we go the extra mile or culture is we make  sure, or it could be, we measure twice and cut   once. Those are kinds of things that are really  about the way we get work done around here. And   certainly, a focus on results is like, are we  following the process to then get the revenue   and to then build a profitable company or  are we just kind of hanging out together?  So he had to come to terms with his own discomfort  of addressing this with employees and his own   discomfort in being a corporate drone of,  "Oh, expectations and in the workplace and   how we do things." And it turned out that's the  whole thing with coaching and with working with   people is that you kind of see what their  underlying assumptions and beliefs are and   there's a reason everyone does what they do. So  there's a reason he's doing what he's doing. We   had to come to terms with that and then he had  to really courageously make some changes about   the way he was operating. And ultimately, they  had to part ways with one or two really toxic   people who were creating this gossipy culture and  making people feel not included and not focused   on results. And then when they all got on the same  page, they were able to gain a lot more traction. I feel like a lot of leaders  and founders can relate to this,   of wanting to create a great culture and  keep it nice and friendly and everyone's   a family and then things don't quite work out  often in those cases. And there's a shift to,   "Okay, we actually need to  make a business that works." Right. It always reminds me, Sheryl Sandberg came to talk  at Airbnb once and people are asking, "What do you   do with all this...? We're just constantly in  chaos. Things are always reorging or changing,   just never... I'm on different teams every six  months. Our goals are shifting. What do you do   with all this... Our culture's changing as  we grow." And she's like, "That is a sign   of hyper growth and success. And the opposite  is even worse when you are not growing and you   don't want that. And so you should be happy  this is the challenge you're running into." I love that. It's so true. So along these lines, you talk about how  a lot of founders have to come to terms,   and it's not just founders, it's just execs and  leaders you work with, have to come to terms with,   "Here's what I thought leadership was  going to be and how to be a great leader,   and here's what it really is." Is there  anything more there that you find is commonly   what they're wrong about or what they  miss and what they have to realize? Yeah. And I think as we grow as leaders, we  all have to realize our own blind spots and   the difference between what we thought and  what is actually going on. So I worked with   a founder who she wanted to be was a visionary  leader, which is fantastic. I would love that.   And she was an incredibly visionary person,  very inspirational. But what she didn't see   is that what her company needed was somebody to  structure and hold people accountable and help   them create goals and achieve milestones and  course correct when they got off course. And she'd   be very frustrated when all those things happened.  People got off course, people didn't have goals,   people weren't structured to work together. But  what she didn't realize was that was, in one way   or the other, her job to make that happen. Now, maybe she needed to have, and I would   talk to her a lot about this, a partner, like  a COO or somebody else who could be the person   who would be sort of managing the internal while  she got to be more visionary, inspirational,   but ultimately, it was her job to make sure  that that was in place. And she didn't sort   of see that and she did not adjust her style.  And so there's a lot of wheel spinning that   happens from that. Even though, by the way,  she was an incredibly inspirational person   and incredibly inspirational leader and she  meant so well. There was nothing malicious   about it. It's just that she didn't see the  situation for what it was and then adjust. It reminds me, we had this coach on  the podcast, Joe Hudson, and he had   this phrase that I think a lot of people use,  but it just stuck with me. What you resist,   persists. So if you hate confrontation, you're  going to have much more confrontation. If you   hate structure... Actually, this reminds me,  Joe Gebbia at Airbnb. He was very anti-process   at the beginning of Airbnb. He's like, "We're  not going to have a process. I hate process.   We're going to run... That's the big company  stuff." And then it just chaos constantly.   And then eventually it's like, "Okay, we need  to have some process to how we build things." Yeah. And so it's interesting. A lot of  people have to realize the thing   they think was bad is actually,  I see why people do it this way. Yeah, totally. Actually, I'd like to say  something about that because so many...   Founders are kind of mavericks and they come  into a situation or they start at this company   and they want to do things their own way and  that's fantastic. Otherwise, they wouldn't be   a founder. That's actually fantastic. And so  many of the founders I've worked with want to   reinvent leadership. Right? They want to have it  with no process, they want to have no hierarchy,   they want to have autonomy, whatever it is. And my feeling is like, "God bless. You   should absolutely try to do that." But  at the end of the day, what happens is,   they kind of invent for themselves the  understanding that they need to have process,   hierarchy, roles and responsibilities, goals,  OKRs, whatever it is. And I think it's helpful   sometimes to go through that fire of thinking  we can do it a different way. But ultimately,   I think that the ways to structure a group of  people and get them organized so that they can   win, are kind of well trod. And I would  say that it's helpful to get through   that stage quickly so that you don't have to  constantly reinvent the wheels of leadership. Such an important context. Obviously, one of  the... The most successful founders come up with,   have first principles thinking into how to do  stuff, and oftentimes they find something no   one has ever thought about. So it's always  this balance of try a bunch of stuff,   a lot of it won't [inaudible 00:49:34]. Some  of it was, what will help you win. And I think   that's a really good point. I want to get into a  couple more tactical things that you often work on   with founders. One is, running meetings. Meetings  come up a lot on this podcast. People hate them,   people love them. There's some are great, some  are bad, most are bad. You have some cool advice   on just how to make meetings more effective and  how to especially end a meeting to help you move   forward. Talk about what your advice is there and  just generally any advice for better meetings. Yeah. I'm one of the few people that loves  meetings. Or I should say I don't love meetings. I   love the potential for meetings. We have all this  smart people in the room. We have the potential to   talk about these great things and make decisions.  And unfortunately, they don't go that way. So what   happens often, I mean there's so many downfalls  with meetings, but one thing that happens is,   we keep meeting. Either we make decisions or  we don't make decisions, but then we come back   to meet again and we don't have any continuity  from the last. So then we re-meet, we re-decide,   and that is a big problem. So my three questions  to end the meeting are, what did we decide here?   Who needs to do what by when? And who else  needs to know? And if you can capture those,   articulate those as deliverables, I promise  you, you're going to have better meetings. Okay, so it's, what did we decide  here? Who's going to do what by   when? So basically, action  items with dates. And then,   who needs to know about what we  decided here? Is that how you put it? Yes. Who else needs to know? There's so many  executive teams that I've worked with and at   first, they go into their room, they have their  meeting, they make their decisions and then they   leave and they don't tell anyone. "I made this  promise for my team that you guys need to kind   of go do." Or, "We decided on a policy of some  sort and we forgot to tell everybody." And again,   no, absolutely no maliciousness, just  that they forget or they're too busy   and there's not part of the protocol and  the process inside of the company that   encourages and really insists that people share  important information, so cascading that down.  But even the first question, what did we  decide here? If you really go around the   room at the end of a meeting or six people in  the meeting, let's say, and you say to everybody,   "What did we decide here?" And they all write  it down, you will get six different answers,   even though we're in the same meeting.  I love that it's so powerful, but also,   so helpful to really raise that up, to surface  that and then to figure out what to do about it. I love that you highlighted that. I was  going to say exactly the same thing,   that everyone in their head has the  thought of, "Here, oh yeah. Here's   what we decided." And to your point, it's  often not the same. So is the advice here,   is this like a template or something you fill  out at the end of a meeting or is it someone's   job to make sure these three things happen or  how do you operationalize these three questions? I like it that it's someone's job, the person  that I sort of think of as the meetings are.   And typically, that's somebody who enjoys  follow-up, who enjoys putting lists together   and putting things into boxes and whatnot, and  there's usually someone like that on the team.   And so then it's kind of exciting for them to  be the follower upper. But one way or the other,   so you could use a template. I think that  actually baking it in as a ritual to the meeting,   because the other thing about meetings is that we  never have enough time. We go right to the end and   we don't leave the five or 10 minutes at the end  to make sure that we ask these three questions   and make sure that we have an understanding of  what the follow through is on these meetings. What I'm imagining is, say it's the product  managers. Put this doc on the screen in the   meeting as the meeting's ending and  just have it filled out basically,   and just confirm, "Does  this look good to everyone?" Love that. That's a great way to  do it. By the way, with... Well,   I just would say what's interesting about that  is that if we ask people what did we decide here,   I think there's value in just asking  that question in particular because   somebody might say, "We decided," I don't know,  "Something." And other people would say, "No,   we didn't. But that's actually a good idea. It  sort of crystallizes what we did talk about in   a more comprehensive way." I think there's value  in raising the differences and I think there's   value in stitching those together. So just  putting it up on the board is good, especially   if you're running short of time. I worry that  somebody might not weigh in and say, "Actually,   I have a very different point of view of what we  decided here." So maybe it's also about building   the culture to break in and say, "No, that's  not what I see. Let's spend some time on that." Let's actually spend more time on this because  this is really, I think, really this specific   detail I think could be really powerful if you  do it right. So say you're the PM in the meeting,   who do you ask? Do you say to the room, "What  did we decide here?" Or do you look at the   most senior person? Otherwise, it feels like it  could just lead to a whole discussion the last   couple of minutes, which I guess could be  valuable, but who do you point this question to? Yeah. So I picture this for let's say,  a six-person executive team meeting,   which means everyone go around quickly and say,  "What did we decide here?" Now, if you're in a   meeting with a large executive team, which I  do work with sometimes or non-executive team,   like a group of some sort, then you probably  want to get a few people just to... I would   just even say as a facilitator, two or  three people, "Okay, two or three people,   what do we decide here?" And if you can  kind of get common, great. That's fantastic. Got it. Okay. So if it's a small meeting,  go around the room and everyone just shares,   here's what we decided here. And they could  just be like, "Yep, he's got it or she's   got it." Awesome. Okay. This is great. So the  advice here is, next time you have a meeting,   especially an exec meeting, just at the end of  the meeting, you, the listener of this podcast,   just ask, "Okay, everyone. Let's just make sure  we're on the same page. What did you decide here?   Who needs to do what by when?" And then everyone  chimes in and you're writing this in this doc,   and then what else? Who needs to  know about what we decided here? Yeah. Lenny, I love that because also, do  you have to be the leader of the meeting to   do that? No. You could just be the person in  the meeting and just chime in and just start   it yourself. And if you do that and everyone  kind of picks it up, it can become a ritual   just by virtue of your own agency. So I love  that you just encouraged everyone to do that. And this is how you become a leader, is you just  start doing these things and people are like,   "Oh, Alisa is so helpful. She's just  on top of it. Every time she's in a   meeting, the meetings go better. We  get things done." So I think just   doing the thing that is useful  to everyone is how you move up. Exactly. Amazing. Okay. Another topic that I know you  spend a lot of time on is something you call   the founder prenup. And what I love about this is,  a lot of the problems that a company trickle down   from the founders having their challenges with  each other. And I started a company in the past   and I don't think people realize how significant  this decision is in your life. It's basically,   you are marrying someone in a business context and  you're stuck with this person for a long time and   you basically came up with a prenup, which is  a set of questions of just things you need to   talk about to make sure you're aligned before you  start this company. Is there any context around   this thing before we talk through actually the  questions that you recommend people talk through? Well, I just want to reiterate what you  just said. Exactly right. And it turns   out that according to Noam, Noam Wasserstein,  65% of startups fail because of conflict with   founders or the founding team. So it's really  essential to get this right, and I agree that   people step into this relationship with a lot less  care than they should. And bad things can happen   because you haven't done the work of getting to  know each other before you decide to co-found. Yeah. It's so easy just to like, "Yeah, I'll  start a company. We have this cool idea. Let's   just do it. It's going to be so awesome."  And then you don't realize how much you're   committing to and how often things don't work out  because of that quick decision. And oftentimes,   it's like friends and then it becomes even  more challenging because I want to be friends,   but we're in business together.  So yeah. Let's talk about what   you recommend folks talk through  as much as we can on this podcast. So I do have kind of an extensive questionnaire,  so we just touch on a few things, but one thing   I think first and foremost is, what are your  values? And I think it's really essential to   do some sort of values clarification exercise.  You can find a ton of them online. You can find   a list of values and just pull out your core  values and just compare them with each other   because when you are aligned, it's great.  Or when you're adjacent, it's also great.  I might care a lot about excellence, Lenny,  you might care a lot about learning. Fantastic.   Those are great values that we can kind of,  go together. I might care about excellence   and you might care about work-life balance. Wow,  let's talk about that because I think it's going   to be really important as we go through our  startup journey that we understand both of us,   what does work-life balance mean and  what does excellence mean? Because   those two things can at times be at odds  with each other, just as kind of an example.  So talking through those core values in advance  and updating them regularly, even as you go   down the path together is so essential. Just so  you know where the other person's coming from.   Because the other problem is, someone acts in a  certain way, you don't know them that well maybe,   or maybe you've known them as an eighth grader.  A lot of founders do know each other from their   youth and they've matured into different kinds of  people. And so you think they're acting strangely,   but actually, they're acting in accordance  with their values. And so getting a handle   on that upfront can solve, I would just say,  solve a lot of problems before they start. So signs that your values don't align. It's  basically you both can't be true is almost the way   I think about it as we talk. It's hard to be the  excellent, focus on excellence and also not work   long hours, which it's possible, but it's hard.  Those are challenging and worth the conversation. Yeah, worth the conversation because in  fact, as you say that, I'm like, "Well,   I guess you can do that. Right. You can do that."  And so therefore, that's where the conversation   has to figure out how you're going to marry  these two values, which might be at odds or   might be aligned, but let's talk through what  work-life balance means to you and let's talk   through what excellence means to me, and let's  see if we can have a meeting of the minds about   it or at least I know where you stand. One of the founders I worked with,   he would text or Slack his co-founder on weekends  and the co-founder wouldn't respond. And that   was extremely frustrating to the person, to the  co-founder I was talking to. And it turned out,   after they finally addressed it, it really was  about wanting to have some downtime and some,   quote unquote, "Balance." Nothing wrong with  that, but because they didn't talk about it,   both sides made [inaudible 01:00:20] big  assumption about it and then it caused   this conflict that didn't have to happen  if they'd had the conversation in advance. Comes back to where we started of having  these conversations is necessary and almost   helps the other person because this small  issue could become a huge issue over time,   if you just start assuming and it keeps happening  and it keeps scratching and scratching at you.   And letting that person's [inaudible  01:00:45] is screwed up because you're,   "I can't do this with you anymore."  Right? So it's just another reminder   of how it's good for the other person for  you to engage in a difficult conversation. Yes, very true. Okay, what else? So values. By the way,   is there a values framework you most love  that you can point people to or there just   a bunch and don't worry too much about  which one you go [inaudible 01:01:05]? I mean, the one I use is super simple, which  is on the thing called the internet. There's   a lot of lists of values and I think when  you see a list of values, you can pull out   the ones that are most meaningful to you, and  that's a very simple and helpful and free tool. Got it. So you just Google list of values,  there's a PDF, and just circle the ones that   are most and pick whatever small number,  don't... Half of [inaudible 01:01:27]- Actually, well, just to give you the  process, right? It's helpful to pick 20,   for example. Great. And then you  winnow them down to, let's say,   10. And then you do the difficult work  of winnowing them down to three to five   that you feel are core to you. And that's a  good exercise for everyone to do actually,   every year because things can change. It also  forces you to make the difficult decisions about   when it comes down to it, what are the things  that really are important to me? The more you   know your values, the more you can operate in  the world with just more clarity for yourself. Awesome. All right. So values. What else? Yeah. So another one is, vision of the  company. So when this company is successful,   what does that look like? And what that  might look like is, we're in control of our   destiny and we are able to operate this business  independently and we have a lot of freedom. What   that might look like is a big venture outcome  that we all read about. And if you are both   assuming that you both think the same thing  but aren't talking about it explicitly or   talking about the trade-offs you need to make  inherent in that, then what often happens if you   have differences is they come home to roost  while it's too late or when it's too late.  So an example is the two co-founders I worked  with, one of them would said to me wistfully, this   is like five or six years into the company, and  the company was going well, but it was challenging   and they had all their growing pains and like  you mentioned about Sheryl said all the chaos.   And he said to me, "Gosh, I don't see why we have  to grow. I just wish we could actually have fewer   employees. And I used to love it when I knew  everybody's name and I would just much prefer   an environment where we didn't have to grow."  Well, unfortunately, they were already venture   backed and also, the other co-founder had a very  lofty ambition for a very big company. And since   they hadn't talked about that, it was way too  late to even have that conversation and it was a   very painful reckoning for both of them  to realize they were not on the same page. Totally, see the value of this one. I could  totally see how people would have different   goals. I imagine it also changes over  time, so there's probably an element of,   if something has shifted for you, you should  probably also have that conversation. I don't   want to build an IPO venture scale business, I  just want to build something chill. So basically,   a line on what is... How would you phrase  that? What does winning look like to you? Yeah, what does success look like? What does success look like to you? Or what's the vision for the company  when it reaches its full potential? Okay. Great. What else? Another one is, it's sort of a two part  question. How do you handle conflict? So   how do you handle conflict? But then, you might  want to ask your spouse, someone close to you,   "How do I handle conflict?" Because you might  think, "Oh, I handle conflict with such an   enlightened person. I'm so neutral about it.  I'm so great at bringing things up." But the   person who's close to you might say, "You seethe  until you're ready to bring something up and it's   really uncomfortable in the seething period." So  it just gives you a little more self-awareness   about how you actually handle conflict. And that's really important because I   might be the kind of person who wants to bring up  conflict and talk about it immediately. The other   person might be a person who totally wants to  talk about the conflict but wants to let it settle   first and wants to also go through their own  thinking process about what's important to   them and might actually feel like they've  resolved it themselves without having to   have a conversation with you. And if you're  the person who's like, "Let's talk about it,   let's talk about it, let's talk about it." And  they're like, "I'm working through it myself."   Now you have conflict over the conflict and it  just turns into dynamic that's not necessary. As you go through these questions, it's absurd  to imagine people don't do this when they find   a co-founder and work through stuff, and I know  nobody does. The percentage of people that do this   sort of work ahead of time, it's very low. And so  I love that we're helping this percentage go up,   but it also reminds me of just how crazy it  is people don't have these conversations and   how it explains why so many founder relationships  don't work out. So these are awesome. What else?   I know you have a whole list and we'll link  to it, right? There's a PDF we can link to? Yes. With the questions or- For sure. [inaudible 01:05:55] post.  Awesome. Let's do a few more. Another one is, how do we decide when we  disagree? And that is a very good thing   to explore because there's actually a lot of  different ways to decide when you disagree   and they're all good. And if you have it sort of  upfront and it's just for an ongoing discussion,   but if you have it up front like when we disagree,  because that's definitely going to happen,   let's assume that the person who cares the most  can win that argument. That would be a great   way to do it. It might be, the person who's got  the best perspective and the most expertise can   win that argument. It might be, we'll go back  and forth when we really disagree. First you   win and then I win, like that, back and forth. There's so many different ways to handle it and   if you talk about it upfront, you'll be much  more likely to be able to actually put that   into practice when you do disagree because you  will definitely disagree. There's no way around   that. And that's not even a bad thing. You're  smart people. You have this dynamic tension in   the relationship. You bring different things to  the table. You've got different perspectives.   Disagreeing is normal. Working through it and  having a practice and a process of working through   it, will help it be a good conversation rather  than this sort of sulky difficult conversation. I love it. Maybe one more? Yeah. So another one is, what kind of  company culture do I think is important?   People definitely don't talk about this before  they found the company and they assume they're   on the same page. So one founder might be, "I  want to have this great company where everyone   loves it and we're all loving together  and working hard together. And it feels   like a..." To use your word before,  "It feels like a family." By the way,   that's great. That's fantastic. "I want to have a  get it done, results-focused culture where we're   just executing the hell out of everything  and that we're just focused on winning."  By the way, those two can actually exist together.  But if you're pushing in one direction without the   other and your co-founder is pushing the other  direction without yours, it really can feel like   two different companies. And that's... When I  go into a situation at one of my client sites,   often I will hear from the employees, "It  feels like we have two different companies and   two different cultures depending on whose team  you're on." And that, of course, leads to lack   of coherent working together and certainly even  just lack of different standards and expectations. Awesome. Okay. To kind of start to wrap  our conversation, I want to take us to a   recurring segment of this podcast that I call,  Fail Corner. We've talked a lot about failure   at this point and just all the ways people  fail. I'm curious if, in your career or life,   there's a story that might be helpful  for folks to hear when things didn't   go great and you've failed, and if you learn  something from that experience. And the reason   this is something I do is I feel like people  listening to this podcast, everyone's like,   "Sounds so amazing, everything's always going  great. They're killing it." When in reality,   that's not actually how things go. So these  end up being really helpful for people like,   "Oh, wow. Even Alisa had a really hard time  sometime." Is there a story that you could share? Absolutely. I mean, so many examples. I'm  going to give two quick examples. One is,   when I first started my coaching practice,  I just kind of started and so I just did   everything I could to get clients, to  build a business, to build a practice,   to build my brand, all the things. And I  was working so hard and I think I'd had   this conversation with somebody that didn't go  very well. And I just thought, in my mind's eye,   I thought, "Well, what will become of me?" That  was my voice in my head for quite a long time,   "What will become of me?" And I was living  in Boston at the time. I got onto the floor,   my hardwood floors in my Brookline condo,  and I just balled in the fetal position.   I just balled and balled and balled for an  hour. It wasn't 10 minutes, it was an hour.  And I was so frightened and just upset. Am  I going to be able to make this work? And   it was a while and I got into the couch and  took a little stress nap. And then I got up   from my stress nap and I just started making  more calls and doing more things. And that was   definitely a rock bottom moment for me. And I  think what I learned is, you have to literally   pick yourself up from the ground and pull yourself  forward. And when you keep taking action, action,   action, win or lose, win or lose, you'll  get where you need to go. And that turned   out to be true. But in those moments, I was not  thinking that was going to turn out to be true. Wow. Amazing story. I imagine  many people feel those moments   and it's empowering to hear that  it can all turn out really well,   even when you're lying in the floor crying for an  hour. An hour is a long time to cry on the floor. It is a long time to cry. It really...  I thought about it because most people   just cry for 10 or 15 minutes. I was  crying for an hour. I'm positive. Yeah. Great story. You said you had another story. Yeah. I'll tell you a second story, which  is more focused on actually my work life.   So one thing that I do is I do coaching of  course and I do off sites. And this was early,   early days of my coaching career and I was  doing this off site and it wasn't going well.   And I was debriefing with my client during the  breaks and at one point she said something like,   "I just think we should end this offsite. I just  think we should just decide it's over and it's   not working." And I felt horrible, obviously,  humiliated, certainly, and just like that's a   failure. That's like, "Oh, fail." And I know that  what I took away from it was that I can improve   my skills in every aspect of running an offsite. So getting aligned with the client in advance,   making sure that I had the right activities  getting us to our goal, being very goal-oriented   and focused, and making sure that I had kind of  understood the rhythm of what it takes to bring   people together. So I took some training on that.  I worked my mentor on that, and I got so great at   offsites after that experience. I'll tell you  that was a real low because in the moment, in   that moment, I'm not thinking, "I'm going to get  great at offsites." In that moment I'm thinking,   "Oh, my God. I'm going to get... What will become  of me?" But I turned it into, in my mind's eye,   or I should say, I turned it into the ability  to build my skills. And I just want to tell   everybody, even at your lowest moments, anything  that you're learning from that, can then be   turned into fuel to build your skills to get  great at the thing that you're not great at. What I also love about this is there's this  feeling of imposter syndrome, is specifically   this fear that I do something wrong and it'll  all crumble and everyone will see I suck and I   never... I don't know anything and everyone will  see it. And I love both these stories are like,   it doesn't go well and doesn't crumble.  You build from there. And no one's like,   "Oh, Alisa's terrible forever." No, it's  like move on to the next thing. And then   you use that as fuel to become really  good at this thing that didn't go great. Yeah, that's really well said. Amazing. Alisa, we covered a lot of stuff. Is  there anything that you were hoping to cover or   you think might be useful for folks to hear before  we move to our very exciting lightning round? The only last thing I want to talk about, just  sort of circling back to your role as a leader, I   was one time working with the CEO who was handling  the fact that this launch was not going well,   as in the launch wasn't happening. [inaudible  01:13:25] foot off, foot off, foot off. And his   point of view was, you need to have patience  with it as it goes. And my point of view is,   because I've talked to a lot of the people  around, was that there was a massive process   problem going on that he was not kind of touching  into and really investigating because the product   manager wasn't experienced, was kind of hiding  it because he knew he didn't have the skills, was   fighting with engineering, it just wasn't working. And when the CEO was telling me, and we really had   a long discussion about this where I kind of  enlightened him about some of the issues that he   needed to get involved and fix, he kept thinking,  "I need to have patience." So what I want to say   to everybody is, sometimes you need to have  patience and sometimes you need to look at the   process. And I think you, as the leader, need to  have the wisdom to know the difference, but also   your finger on the pulse to recognize, is this  an issue with patience or an issue with process? I guess, is there a sign that  you're like, it's probably a   process thing and you're just ignoring a  glaring problem that everyone else sees? I think the sign is when, if you search your  mind, you don't really know how this thing   is going to come together. There's no plan in  your mind. You haven't touched in with people   or talked to people about what's going  on. You kind of hear this uncomfortable   silence about it. Those are symptoms that  you just need to dive deeper and just be a   little more in touch with what's going on and  talk to some folks and look at some data. And   by the way, it might not be a massive process  problem. It might just be one little thing that   needs to get unstuck but you, as the leader, need  to recognize that and figure out a way to make   that unstuck. And if there's, of course, a big  problem that needs to somehow be just surfaced. So if there's this hope this'll work out  versus I see a path to this working out,   it's probably a problem. Awesome. Yeah, well said. Is there anything else that you wanted to share  or touch on that you think might be helpful? We talked a little about the co-founders  prenup, which I think people would think,   "Well, I'm not a co-founder, I don't need that." I  just want to invite everyone to also think about a   different tool that I have, which is called the  Personal Operating Manual. And it helps prompt   you to talk about working style together because  you may not be co-founders, of course, but you're   working on a team with a bunch of people and  they all have their different working style.  So it's kinds of questions like, what  communication style do you like the best?   How do you like to work? Do you like large  uninterrupted blocks? Do you like meetings   here and there? When I'm trying to get  a hold of you for something important,   what's the best way to do that? What is one  of your pet peeves or some of your pet peeves?   How can I get a gold star with you? Also, this  is my favorite. What's your delegation style?  Do you want me to check in with you regularly,  like once a week as I'm working down the path   of a project? Or do you want me to just  let you know when it's done and just tell   you at the end that it's been complete?  So lots of different ways people assume   other people work because it's like your style,  but actually it's just your style. So those kinds   of conversations can be great for working  together and also be a great team activity. So this kind of what goes into these  READMEs people put together, here's how to- Yes. ... work with me. I really love the gold  star concept because I feel like people   want to know how do I be super awesome?  How do I be really successful working for   you? And I like that visual of the gold  star and the pet peeves. I feel like a   lot of people will identify that. What  are my pet peeves so that people don't   do these things because they don't know,  right? They don't know until you tell them. Nobody knows what's your operating style until  you tell them. And the more you can showcase,   the more everybody will be able to do it right for  you and you'll be able to do it right for them.   And then you'll be able to have better workplace  harmony and save your conflict with things that   are really important. Not just because like, "Oh,  you didn't text me when I wanted you to text me." Being clear. What do you know? Is there  anything else that you think might be   helpful to share before we get to  a very exciting lightning round? No, just that. Well, with that, Alisa, we reached our very  exciting lightning round. Are you ready? I can't wait. I'm ready. Here we go. First question, are  there two or three books that you   find yourself most recommending to other people? So we already talked about Kim Scott, the  wonderful, amazing Kim Scott and her book,   Radical Candor, is one I recommend a lot to  people. It's fantastic. Working Backwards by gosh,   Colin Bryar and Bill something, is about sort  of the Amazon way of working backwards from   the customer. Super geeky and tactical. I  love it. I slurp it up like Harry Potter.   It's so good. And I definitely recommend to my  clients about Amazon's Management Science. And   the third is Walt Disney by Neil Gabler  because it really shows how Walt Disney,   sort of it's everything about his youth and  how he turned into a very bad entrepreneur   and ultimately into a fantastic inventive  entrepreneur. And it shows all the origins   of how he invented these different pieces  that now make up the Walt Disney Company. The first two recommendations we've had on the  podcast, Kim Scott and Bill Carr, is the other- Bill Carr. ... co-author. He's been on  the podcast and people love   that episode. I haven't had Walt  Disney on. I got to work on that. Or the writer, Neil Gabler Or the writer. Yeah, yeah. Good tip. Okay,   next question. Is there a favorite  recent movie or TV show you really enjoy? Yeah, I enjoyed Inside Out 2. I thought it  was fantastic, the idea [inaudible 01:18:49]. I could see why you love it. I feel  like it's for all coaches in the world. Totally. Just the idea that like, oh yeah, we're  all this complex stew of emotions and it's okay. Mm-hmm. I also love that movie.  Next question. Do you have a   favorite product you recently  discovered that you really love? Yes, the Ninja Creami. So good. Say more. The Ninja Creami turns anything into ice cream.  So you can actually make ice cream. Good,   God bless. But I take my protein shake,  which is okay, and turn it into ice cream,   which is delicious. And it takes 10 minutes  and very little prep, and it's simple to   use and it works as expected, which so many  things do not. The Ninja Creami, go get it. That's the first for the Ninja Creami. And  I love, the holidays are coming around,   so this is going to be good for  people. Do you have a favorite   life motto that you often come back  to you find useful in work or in life? This quote by Joseph Campbell  animates my life, which is,   "If you can see your path all the way through  to the end, you are following someone else's   path. Your path only becomes clear moment  by moment as each foot hits the ground." Wow, that's so good. It's so empowering  because it helps you realize if you don't   see where it's all going, that's normal and  that's good. Wow. Great one, good one. I need   to do something with all these mottos. They're  so good. I need to create a poster or something. That's a great idea. Or your newsletter. Here we go. Send them out. Yeah, that's the easy path. Okay. Last question.  So I'm curious, and not to create more competition   for you, but I feel like a lot of people think  about becoming a coach of some kind, like a   product coach, exec coach. If someone is thinking  about going down that path, is there one piece   of advice you could share to help them pursue  this path, even explore if it's right for them? If you think you want to become a coach  and you immediately want to build up   your coaching skills, listen to people  more deeply and ask deeper questions,   not just respond to what they just said, but why  do you think that? Or where is that coming from?   And you will see if you enjoy that process of  really going deeper with people. I think that   would be helpful for everyone to do. But  certainly if you want to become a coach,   I think that's essential to be able  to get really beneath the surface. I love how your energy just changed into  coaching mode when you said that. I love   that. That was such an interesting thing to see  and that was great advice. That's easier said   than done. And it's interesting, you could tell  people are so good at that specific skill versus   not. And so I love that that's the thing to work  on, is ask better questions, think deeper about   the person and what they're coming from. Alisa,  this was incredible. Two final questions. Where   can folks find you if they want to reach out,  maybe work with you, what kind of people do you   work with in case people are interested in that,  and finally, how can listeners be useful to you? Oh, thank you. Well, I work with executives at  startups and also at large public companies,   so feel free to reach out if you want to have a  conversation about coaching. And you can find me   at alisacohn.com. And actually, I'm going to take  some resources and put them at a special link,   which is alisacohn.com/lenny. If you want  to download the Co-Founder Prenup. I also   have a Personal Operating Manual and a few other  resources I will put there. So alisacohn.com/lenny   and you can also join my newsletter from there. And I think in terms of helping me, I guess   there's two things I want to say. My life's work  genuinely is to make a difference. When I became   a coach, it was because the music in my head was  to make a difference. And so I hope I've made a   difference for all of you today and I would invite  you to try one thing that makes you uncomfortable,   this week. As soon as you hear this,  this week, try something that makes you   uncomfortable and feel free to let me know on  LinkedIn or even send me an email and let me   know what you did that made you uncomfortable. So that would be very meaningful to me. And the   second thing that would be very meaningful to  me is if you would go find my podcast called,   From Start-Up to Grown-Up and give it a listen.  Maybe give it a rating and review because as you   know, Lenny, the way people find your podcast is  when other people are interested in your podcast. From Start-Up to Grown-Up. I love that title. Thank you. Alisa, thank you so much for  being here. This was awesome. Thank you so much for having  me, Lenny. It was great. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If  you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the   show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite  podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a   rating or leaving a review as that really helps  other listeners find the podcast. You can find   all past episodes or learn more about the show at  lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.