[music] Theory has to have a priority. [music] Capitalism and artificial intelligence

are the same thing. [music] The dimension of the future has disappeared.

There is absolutely no representation [music] anymore. [music] There is no final resolution to

contradiction. Militant proletarian [music] snake handling over abysses never gets

much wilder than this. [music] All right, everybody. Welcome back to

the dangerous maybe. And today, wow. Um, we are in for a uh special conversation. We are joined by Nick Land and John

Michael Greer for a conversation that has been years in the making. Um, I just can't express how thrilled I am to have

both of you here for this. Um, before anything else, I just got to give a shout out to James Ellis of Hermitics

podcast because this conversation was an idea that he had been thinking about for a long time. And a few months ago on X,

people were talking about it and is this going to happen? is this, you know, and uh people were asking James and James uh

said that he's currently working on other projects and is busy. And so people tagged me and were like, "Hey,

why don't you have him talk?" And I would not have even considered this without James giving his blessing and

his approval. So I talked to James and he gave me the thumbs up. And so anybody who's into theory, uh, philosophy, the

occult, check out James' channel. It's one of the best on YouTube. And, uh, hi James. Thanks. Uh, so with that said,

uh, just just thrilled for this. Um, before we get into it, Nance, what is up with you?

>> Oh, you know, I'm I'm uh I'm hanging out. Uh, today is a >> uh today is a special day. uh

significant day >> uh for >> for for various reasons, but for me my

favorite reason is because it's pi day. Uh now I'm a I'm a Philistine. I I'm not uh wellversed in uh in the occult and

numerical significance, but I do know that pi is a significant number. Um and so I'm excited uh to be gathered here to

celebrate mathematical significance uh symbolic significance and uh and yeah it's about it's about time this

conversation took place and uh I think we'll get into time uh as well as other other things as well. So I'm excited.

>> So as solemn providence to use Nick's term uh would have it today is also Nick's birthday. So, happy birthday,

Nick. >> It's uh very special to be spending your birthday with you and having this

conversation. So, just uh it's Pi Day. It's it's land day and it's conversation.

>> Great present as far as I'm concerned. >> So, okay, there's there's a lot of great topics to be discussed here. As I was

telling both of you, we know what people want from this. They want to see you to engage in a conversation. And so Nance

and I are going to withdraw as much as we can while still having some questions. But um there's just so much

good stuff to talk about. I mean, we can have a discussion of politics. I mean, John, I was just reading The King and

Orange. >> Absolutely loved it. Uh you know, >> I I I'm a workingass thinker, so to

speak. And so, uh, you know, it it's an incredible >> Sorry, I just I just cut out then for a

minute. I don't know. >> You're back. We can see you. >> And so, yeah, it it just I I love the

book. And so, politics, you know, obviously is a an interesting approach. >> This whole connection. Nance, you were

talking. Why don't you say the thing with hyperstition and >> Yeah. the the hyperstition and the the

magical element. Uh I I think for me hyperstition really has always resonated uh in a material way like I I see the

material side of hyperstition. Um and I know a lot of a lot of practitioners and a lot of people uh view the process of

acting to change the world to to bring the world uh more in line with a will. um they they see that in a way that

maybe they would they would also see it in a material way but there there's a different element of it too. So I think

there's a lot that we can get into uh discussing hyperstition versus magic >> versus

>> maybe >> and magic. [laughter] >> So yeah I mean I I I guess I would just

want to start off by saying you know what do you guys where do you want to start? Uh are there any topics in

particular that you uh are inspired to have a conversation about? >> Look, I'm itching to show John my

diagram. >> Let's start there. That's the perfect diagram.

>> I'm good with diagrams. >> Let let me just This is my anticipation. Like you might think it totally gets

everything wrong, >> but I was trying to understand what I thought would be happening here. And let

me see whether I can get this in the screen. >> There it is.

>> No, it's not. Right. There we go. >> There it is. >> Okay.

>> Can it uh cybernetic yinyang? We have Nick Land and John Michael Greer on one side. On

the nick land side, it's apocalyptic, biblical, and escapological. Uh, runaway predominates.

And on the John Michael Greer side, we have cyclical, astrological, ecological,

homeostasis predominates, and it's the yin and yang symbol.

>> There is uh an a seed of the other in each. Mhm. >> That seems like a very good basic

summary. Um I have >> You don't feel misrepresented by that? >> No, not at all. Not at all. In fact, I'm

very pleased to see that um you know that that we're we're basically we're basically starting with it some with at

least some mutual understanding because yeah, I would have I would have characterized your thought as

apocalyptic in nature and as you [snorts] know um as focused on that kind of runaway process which I don't tend to

believe in but I don't tend to believe it as a rule. I I'm aware that it happens in some situations. I can think

of several. >> That's where you have a little you have a little black dot.

>> Exactly. Yes. You know, I can think of some some historical examples where societies have run themselves straight

over the straight over a cliff. Um I can't think of any where they've run themselves straight to utopia, but

that's another matter entirely. >> Um >> yes, utopia wouldn't be a category I

would be wanting to. >> I'm delighted to hear that. Oh, >> that's uh that's actually Curtzvile, who

originally I was going to try and use as this >> Mhm.

>> counterpoint to you and maybe in some ways is pure because he probably is a utopian like that.

>> Well, he he's Ray Kurtzwhile. Um yeah, Ray, to my read, Ray Curtzwhile is basically pushing um American Protestant

Christian fundamentalism under a very thin layer of technological drag. The whole singularity thing is ba in in

his pres presentation is basically just um the second coming of Christ except Christ is dressed up as a computer.

You have you know the you know the robot what I'm saying yeah the robot bodies that we're all going to upload our

consciences into are the are the radiant bodies of the of the saved. Space is heaven. Point for point the whole thing

fits in. And mind you, if if you want to believe in something like that, that's fine. But I would much rather if you do

it, go ahead and come out of the closet and be a be a fundamentalist Christian and slam your copy of the King James

Bible around. Um, I don't see much point in trying to pretend the technology is heading that way, but obviously

Kerszwell differ disagrees with me there. Yes,

I think that there's a there's a lot of potential discussion material on that >> because um actually my son

>> Mhm. >> is a great fan of yours. In fact, annoyingly, he said

uh oh, if you you know, so excited you're going to talk to JMG, tell him that I'm at least 80% more on his side

than your side. Um, so I sort of forgive him there. But he said, so I was saying, look, there's lots of interesting things

for us to talk about, but probably on AI, >> we're so far apart that it just might

not be a productive zone of engagement. >> I think that's >> He said, "No, no, you no, no, you've got

it wrong." He said, you know, talk about it as a myth >> and ask what's going on backstage

>> behind the myth of progress and the Fouian tradition.

>> H Okay. So, your son has definitely been paying attention. um

that whole business the whole you know AI as myth AI as in fact a myth that's been in circulation

in the western world for a very long time the machine that thinks like a like a human being um

I have my doubts that our current uh generative large language models are um are actually filling that role in the in

real world but they certainly fill that role in mythology. Um I think they are also being propped

up for another reason which is that um we have an a fantastically overinflated bureaucratic system in the industrial

world especially in the United States but not only there of course and it's become a major a major barrier to

economic development economic anything and so I think a lot of what's being done with the deployment of LLMs is an

excuse to get rid of middle management I I mean, do we really need does every single business in the United States

need a compliance department that fills that whose whole job is to fill in um quarterly or annual or monthly reports

to some bureaucracy or other certifying that they are complying with um you know paragraphs six subsection D blah blah

blah of such and such code. Um now that's something an LLM can do extremely well and so it's a way to prune the

bureaucracy. Um, I expect to see a lot of middle management, a lot of things and and the whole the the the image of

the mythic image of the machine that thinks like a man becomes a really good political politically accept acceptable

excuse to do that pruning which so badly needs to happen. I think that's one of the

things that's driving the situation we're in now. And

sorry to be sort of uh stubborn on this, but beyond the sort of sociological level of explanation,

>> do you see a sort of deeper and occult level of explanation about

why? Because as you say, let let's just bracket the question of what LLM >> are actually going to do and and just

look Yeah, I don't have the technological knowledge. So, go ahead.

>> Yeah. So, there's a kind of religious and cultural >> convulsion. I think maybe again you

might think I'm exaggerating it a little bit but it seems to me we're rolling into something that just at that level

just in terms of the cultural response and I would say maybe the most important way of talking about it to say as an

event in the history of religion >> uh something immense is happening. I won't say

unprecedented because I think that would be just to kind of um beg the question and probably it's like that's where our

>> contention on this would lie. But so so there is this as a religious phenomenon >> something is happening here irrespective

of the actual foundation for it. Mhm. >> And I would have thought that as you know from the perspective of

esotericism and the occult tradition, one would always say, well, look, if something is happening in religious

history, >> something is happening at the level of the

at a at a higher level than simple human sociological reality. Um, >> no. Go ahead.

>> No, I think that that's a kind of like I'm happy >> I think part of the part of the issue

I'm I run in very different circles from you and I haven't seen much in the way of a religious response to the um to the

AI phenomenon. I just the the people that the people that I run with, the people that I'm I'm in touch with are

mostly looking at as an economic and a technological and a political phenomenon. Um, the only people I know

who are really talking about it in religious terms are anthroposifists, followers of real Steiner, who are

looking at it as the fulfillment of one of his prophecies of evil. There's this I forget the exact details,

but there there one of his prophecies um was that there would be this emergent of this great web by these vast spiderlike

beings midway between the mineral and the vegetable um kingdoms. capable of a powerful imitation of human thought and

they would cover the world with this web. I think it's the internet actually but there are there are

>> there are anthroposophists who see this as the sort of incarnation of [clears throat]

>> so I can see why that would strike people as prophetic for sure. Um I I'm assuming that that you must to at least

tangentially have come across you know one big sphere is the is the fact that in among um

sort of committed fairly sort of orthodox that's to say not particularly wacky or

esoteric Christians >> there's a lots of people are trying to track the book of revelation onto

>> oh Is AI is AI their latest focus? Okay. I >> to some extent.

>> And then >> go ahead. [clears throat] I think I'm lost.

>> So one more would be just that there's also this thing which I think is a real thing in in lots of like Silicon Valley

and people working in that >> of thinking I mean the most famous quote is obviously Elon Musk's

uh we're summoning a demon. Um Peter [cough and clears throat] Teal has started giving these lectures obviously

or has completed giving these lectures on the antichrist. >> I think Silicon Valley is full of people

>> you know. >> Okay. >> The stereotypical notion is we're

creating a machine god. Mhm. >> So these to me are all just testaments to

the fact that there is something happening at this level of like >> Okay.

>> But but you're but I like to take it you're still skeptical about the >> it's simply that it's it's not something

that I've seen much of as again the the the whole Silicon Valley the the whole the high-tech end of things is not one

is not a circle that I run with. I tend to I mean, you know, being kind of a lite myself, being the kind of person

who doesn't own a cell phone and almost certainly never will. Um there's a lot of that that takes place that I simply

haven't seen. And so, you know, to some extent we're talking across a boundary between social worlds here. Um and that

I'm I'm taking I'm taking all this in. I'm going, okay, this is very interesting. Much of it I was not aware

of. It's, you know, it's a big world out there and there are a lot of different

subcultures in it. >> Let me let me ask a question, John. had have you seen the discussion of Nick's

work on the Tucker Carlson episode that he did with Conrad Flynn because it's really interesting because

>> in that episode they're discussing basically the the perceived influence of the occult on Silicon Valley

>> and they they basically say Nick is the philosopher of these guys. Whether or not the interpretation of Nick's work is

spoton is up for discussion, >> but there is something in the air right now, which is this connection between

the occult and AI technology. And even this is something that even my co-workers ask me about because they

watch Tucker Carlson. And so it is it seems to be something that is starting to resonate more and more in just the

average American's life. Is this connection like are we >> is AI technology

>> bringing about the emergence of something akin to >> you know digital demons? Is that the

trajectory we're on? H the the thing that concerns me there of course is that first of all there are a

lot of people in um certainly in American society generally outside of the privileged classes who treat AI as

such as as a lethal threat or as s just as the enemy. there's, you know, there's been a lot of loose talk about all the

jobs we can get rid of and that's, you know, that them's fighting words in in much of America these days. And so to

add on the religious dimension, um, well, I've already been I'm already very concerned that we're going to see

active persecution of occultists in in the United States. Probably not governmental run governmentally run, but

probably but like mob violence and so on. Um partly that's because quite a few of the um of the public groups,

especially in the neopagan scene, had made no no secret of their their preference for one particular political

party and their um willingness to engage in what we can broadly call evil magic,

cursing and hexing and death spells and things like that. All of which sets off a lot of very ancient reactions in

people. and you know it's burn the witch time. So this is something I want to pay very close attention to. Obviously I do

not want to end my days at the you know um tied to a stake. And I I mean I'm not joking when I say that. I'm not just

sort of waving my hand saying no no you know doing this as an exaggeration. I think people will die. I think there

will be mob violence and people will be killed. And if the if the AI myth feeds into

that, if people come to think of AI as a as a demonological phenomenon and as a deliberately demonological

phenomen phenomenon, here are these evil wizards of Silicon Valley who are deliberately, you know, bringing an

electro Satan into manifestation. The blowback from that could be tremendous and extremely violent.

But I have to say I think that the kind of um what's the what's the expression? The ship has sailed on that.

>> I mean >> I know >> like as Mikey says this Tucker Coulson

thing just as a cultural moment

>> was extraordinary and it's like [clears throat] >> the the readiness for that the appetite

for it. So the the person his guest was a guy called Conrad Flynn who's a he's immense narrative and dramatic skills

and he'd spun this really very impressive >> story um you know just as a piece of

kind of dramatic literature was extremely impressive >> and it to me was obvious that it was

slotting so perfectly into a certain set of expectations. >> Mhm.

>> That I have to be a little bit well a twofold thing.

Firstly, I have to on the just on the sociological level have to be a little bit skeptical about whether

um it's really plausible to think that we are in a position to kind of quarantine a certain type of cultural

and religious >> uh episode from taking place. Like it just

>> that might just be naive. >> Oh yeah. Um, and on a more elevated level, it seems to me that again

that is to presuppose that um

there are not higher forces. >> Oh, >> at work. Mhm.

>> You know [clears throat] that that it's that it is just a human sociological phenomenon that we can turn on and off

as if we were in control of the history of religion from this >> part which seems to me just from an

occult point of view to be very naive. >> No. >> And if you're dealing with a genuine let

me say like whatever scarecrow spiritual phenomenon >> it's that that it's not a human

psychological phenomenon. something at [clears throat] a at a higher level than that that's taking place and therefore

not really we don't have a an op an off switch for that. >> Oh no, I'm I'm not arguing with that for

a moment. Um my my concern is not my my thought is not that you know we however defi however that word is defined that

we can stop this. is that we damn well better be braced for it because these are signs and indications of a

potentially very traumatic series of events in the occult community. Now for the last um what 175 years [snorts] it's

been possible to talk ever since Elephy's time it's been possible to talk about occultism openly in public without

too much trouble. Um, you could, you know, you might lose your job. That that nearly happened to William Westo, one of

the Golden Dawn founders. You can have various social penalties inflicted on you, but you can get away with it. And

Alistister Crowley, man, good heavens, you know, despite his efforts to make it to define himself as the wickedest man

in the world, etc., etc., you know, he died peacefully in bed at an advanced age. Um,

that is not always something that happens. And I think those of us who are involved in oultism, especially those of

us who are um publicly known to be involved in oultism, need to be aware of where some of these things are trending.

And both both on a spiritual and and shall we say demonic level and on a the the the human level of of social trends

of political trends of religious trends which mirror you know which reflect on our plane what's going on on other

planes. So no I'm not suggesting that you we we ought to stop this. I'm saying um we need to have our eyes wide open

and be ready to do what smart occultists did. um 500 years ago, which is get the hell out of dodge when things start

becoming problematic and be have, you know, be prepared to um make tracks in a hurry and stay out of the way of

rampaging mobs and things, >> right? Um,

>> I mean, is it a is it a thing where especially here in America, John, where >> Christian fundamentalism is still the

religious default for most Americans? Um this is this is something I've been you [clears throat] know concerned about too

where there there's this growing sense of oh

and part of it is has a lot to do with the Tucker Carlson thing because again so many people in my life saw it and

started asking me questions because they know I I I talked to Nick and it [clears throat] is this thing where

they're starting to go wait is technology itself a form of the antichrist is it like th

this is very concrete for a lot of Americans where the antichrist is real he is a figure who's going to show up

>> and you know when we start talking about how you know the blockchain and these new economic

>> technologies you you could be barred from economic activity, right? So, you would have to

get a seal of approval to to engage in economic >> Americans are starting to go, all of

this seems to be lining up for the antichrist. And I I see your concern why certain people who engage in certain

alternative forms of religion uh would have to be concerned about the Christian response to this, the American Christian

response to this. I would also point out that the same thing will be happening in areas with a

large Muslim population. Islam also has a Islamic fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism.

They disagree with each other, but they have much more in common than they have separating them. I think one of the

reasons they're at each other's throats is sibling rivalry. And so, um, so there are large parts of

Europe, for example, where I could see a Muslim response along the same lines. What what do you think of

>> can I ask? >> Go ahead. >> Whether um

you know how you see which I thought was a very interesting remark and and you know I've got a lot

of sympathy with it would be interesting to tweak see

exactly what we could agree on [clears throat] on this. when you were talking about um

Kurt Ray Kurtz >> Mhm. >> and you were saying that his basic

vision of this kind of ascent to singularity which obviously he's very explicit at deliberately sort of um

>> it's almost a parody of [clears throat] language I mean you know he [snorts] end whatever is near

[cough and clears throat] the deliberate sort of invocation of kind of Christian apocalyptic

language. And so you said which I think you know there is a large amount of truth too that um

his vision of the technological future is very deeply informed >> by our religious

>> tradition. [clears throat] And the relations are probably really complicated because

>> you know it might even be said that this technological trajectory is only imaginable through our religious

tradition or something >> like it. You know, I think we then have to get into whole questions about the

relationship of especially Anglo Protestant Christianity to liberalism and to capitalism and to these kind of

social >> um but there's definitely something at least

>> to that. So there's this it's a double level thing. Mhm. >> Um and so in a certain sense on that

level you're you're sort of identifying [snorts] this particular uh

trend in religious history. >> Mhm. >> With uh you you're identifying it as as

our religious tradition. I mean I would say for shortand Anglo Protestroan I don't know maybe you want to kind of be

more specific or whatever or general >> and then on the other hand you have this sense of the religious tradition as

being [clears throat] precariously inhibited

witchburns you know [clears throat] I'm not trying to be to caricature what you're saying it's like there's

potential for persecution >> but you know obviously the first wave of witch trials again exactly where you

identify that in terms of religious orientation but it's clearly part of European Christianity

>> um >> um and I'm assuming that that is the model for this

subsequent >> epoch of persecution that you're envisaging and I'm just wondering how

you think though those two different ways >> or at least to me at the moment they

seem different of articulating the relationship between this >> process and the religious tradition

articulates. >> Well, I'm going to have to drag in another name here which and the name is

Oswald Spangler. >> Um >> Oh, yeah. Of course.

>> Yeah. The Shbangarian model has just simplified and tweaked to suit my own view my own views on things.

>> Ages [clears throat] of reason are a temporary phenomenon in the life of every civilization. We had ours come in

at with the dawn of the early modern period, the late Renaissance. We have and it's now it's now winding down. And

one of the things that follows an age of reason is what um Schwangler calls the second religiosity, the a return to to

the traditional religious forms as a bull work against social and psychological chaos.

And it is and and I want to say it this is this is seriously a degeneration of religion from its spiritual dimension to

a human social dimension which is why it never lasts that well. The second religiosity lasts for a few centuries

and then it gutters out. Think of late classical paganism. It was very much an elite tradition. It was a it was very

strongly support propped up by the Roman state. It was very strongly encouraged because it br it it sort of maintained

so the social ideologies and it was essentially powerless in the face of the rising spiritual trends that ultimately

were absorbed by by Christianity which were drawing on something that was not simply social not simply ideological

in nature. In the same way I see Christianity now, you know, here in the United States especially, we have a lot

of people who are turning to the to various Christian churches and in many places explicitly are saying look this

is the foundation of our civilization. Not this is a reality about of the spirit. This is the foundation of our

society. This is the foundation of our political system. It's very much what Spangler was talking about. Now what we

also know if we observe the history of Christian apocalypticism is that it tends to throw heresies

that is to say people will take the basic ideas and run in various strange directions with them. That's what I see

doing. I see him as as a herz if you want to use the grand old term. He has taken a set of Christian metaphors of

evangelical Protestant Anglo-American Protestant um metaphors and run with them in a particular direction. And Karl

Marx did the same thing. Marxism is is a is absolutely a Christian heresy. And you know it's it's it's one of the more

extreme Christian heresies in that it takes it gets rid of God or rather simply renames him dialectical

materialism. But the same story is being told the story of fall and redemption and all the usual stuff. But Kurszvile

is is taking these metaphors in a distinctive way. He is mapping them onto um onto the material world in a in a way

that that has been very distinctive in recent of of heresies in recent times. Who is it that used to talk about

imminentizing the escaton? Okay. Um I know Robert Anton Wilson had a lot of fun with that in the Illuminat

trilogy but I forget the name of the um the German American political philosopher who used to talk about

imminentizing the escaton meaning taking >> oh yes >> you know Eric

>> recently >> this this was in the 19 >> yes Eric Vivlin that's the guy yes in

the 1950s and 1960s taking a set of spiritual principles and [clears throat] applying them too literally

to events in the material world saying this computer is Jesus is eminentizing the the escaton saying this

revolutionary party is Jesus is the same thing. >> Yeah.

>> And so >> I Yeah. So I see I see Kerszswhil as having as very much caught up in

imminentizing the escaton in a particular way as developing a very interesting Christian heresy.

But as the second religiosity builds, >> yeah, >> you know, uh, Christians tend to crack

down on heresies rather more harshly than they do even on ultra on other religions. So, we'll see what happens,

but that's that's the relationship that I see there. Um,

sorry, I'm just slightly digesting because Um [clears throat]

so yes this second religiosity [clears throat] >> which is actually

predominantly sociological and not religious and and and it's not religious.

Uh, one of the reasons it's not religious is the fact that it doesn't actually see

the process coming out of the zone of religious attention but sees it coming out of sociological processes.

So, so in a way like for Kurt's father clearly he he doesn't even though he's making elusive fun of these religious

references he's obviously like it seems to be actually a kind of secular scientific materialist. It doesn't

>> he he has no indication of suggesting that something from the other side of singularity

>> is flowing back into history and creating this these phenomena creating creating the appearance of a kind of

[clears throat] >> secular materialist technological process where where actually what

>> is coming >> I wonder why he didn't do that. I mean it's it's um who was it? Teot Shaang um

made that argument that the that that you know the the singular the the what h what the reality that exists after the

omega point reaches back through time to bring itself into being and I really thought about the connection between

>> that for sure is a religious conception. >> Yes. So, so which which escapes your notion of the second religiosity like in

so far as those kind of ideas >> are spreading. >> Mhm.

>> Uh that we're talking actually then about >> a genuine religious episode in the

culture, not simply this >> sociological return to religion as a social control opportunity. And both of

those happen both of those happen in the decline of a civilization. Again, we have the example of late classical

paganism and the various new religions of the time. In the same way, I think there's a major ferment stirring of

genuine religious sensibility, genuine religious perception in our time that is pushing in new directions that is not

just rehashing the current metaphors of Christianity, but is looking toward genuinely new things.

But that's some that's typically happening on the fringes as such things do. Um it will move through the crawl

spaces and the the I expect to see it in the lower classes where so much of the second religiosity is middle class and

up. One of the things that that because I have a lot of connections in weird

places the number of American rednecks I know who are pagans. Okay, we are talking good old boys,

you know, beer in one hand, shotgun in the other, and they worship Odin and Thor

or they're druids or they practice what the more the the the pagans of the more privileged classes call trailer trash

wickah. It's a growing it's a growing thing now. And so and and there's there will be

more there will be many more and many stranger things. See, I foresee coming out of this as the middle class, upper

middle class, as the classes of privilege gradually move more and more into the second religiosity because

that's what they want. They want something that will s that will bull work their world that will provide a

framework in which they can continue to exist in a purely sociological level. It's it's a it's a very common

historical pattern, >> but it doesn't sound like either of those two broad categories that you're

>> uh working with here, either of them are in the place to be uh I don't know how to say possessed by

this talan >> style >> religious response.

>> Mhm. to uh this techno economic process. It's like you know you you have one you have

control say you're and you have a neopaganis >> and unless I'm missing something neither

of those neither of those are producing a tile the shadan type response [clears throat]

>> where whereas in a dark way >> Conrad Flynn >> and and in so far as he was able to to I

mean I don't really see Tucker Carlson as a a religious thinker but you know

>> they definitely were in these terms they were in the time of the [clears throat] shouldan

>> because they were saying there is stuff coming out of the singularity

>> um you know so so it's it's not control religion it's not a kind of neopagan [clears throat]

>> retreat from it or I don't know how you would want to characterize that it was it was definitely a full religious

response of a of a certain maybe highly problematic kind >> to these events.

>> I I I noted the the redneck neopaganism purely because very few people I've noticed among the intellectual classes

realize what's going on in the American backwoods right now. I don't think that's the only thing that's going on by

a long shot. It's simply the one that I happen to know about. And so >> there could be a whole bunch of things

out there um you know in various random corners of um North Carolina and Yorkshire and um oh West Australia or

you know various other corners of the world um you know burbling away right now that will become the some of these

may become the great religions of of a thousand years from now. And will some of them relate to this um you know this

singularitarian vision? I don't know. One of the things that I like to think about is imagining a bunch of educated

Roman scholars with a good background in religion sitting around trying to imagine [clears throat]

the religion that was going to rise with the coming of the Piscian age because they had a good sense of the procession

of the equinoxes. They had the notion that each each equinial age each of the this the ages had a religious dimension.

I don't think they could have possibly dreamed of Christianity or Islam. And so we're in the same situation.

We're trying to say, okay, what is likely to come? What what what new religious ferment is going to emerge out

of the decline of our civilization? And I don't think we can guess. I don't think we could possibly have a clue. um

not least because again as you as you have been have very sensibly pointed out these are not things that human beings

do these are things that descend to the human level from elsewhere and so what does that elsewhere have in

mind you know maybe HP Lovecraft was right after all and you know the the next religious revelation will have more

in common with Kulhu than with you know than with anything we've seen so far I'm okay with I'm okay

with tentacles so that's that's fine But you know we don't know. >> Yeah. So, so you definitely I mean this

is something that that I I assumed and based on your interest, you know, had taken, but I but I'm just going to

just ask this just to get it completely locked in. is that you identify

sort of unreservedly really with the kind of astrological aonology

that you find. You know, I I don't know what you think of this book, but I find really well thrashed out in in this

book, Hamlet's Mill. >> Ah, yes. Um I if you hadn't brought up that book, I would have.

>> Um I don't know if exactly how to read it. One could read it as one of history's great hypstians,

but it certainly seems to work. If you look at the religions of the Piscian era, they there's well, I'll make the

joke there's something fishy about all of them. >> Okay.

>> Um, if each each religion does seem to correspond or each age, each religious sensibility.

We have in the Piscian era all these religions that focus on compassion. We have all these religions that focus on

doctrine. One has to believe the right thing and the community is central rather than

the individual. And and and there's a whole bunch of very Piscian factors here. Now that we're moving into the

Aquarian age, if you will, the symbolism there suggests something

more individualistic, something more eccentric, something that is less focused on

compassion and more focused on on freedom. Um, something less Neptunian and more Uranian, if you will. And um,

how exactly that will express itself, I don't know. [clears throat] Will it express itself that way? Well, I don't

know. But so far, it's a model that seems to work and you know, all those people obsessing about the age of

Aquarius, if if nothing else, they've built up a certain pattern in their own minds. And even when that's, you know,

garbled up together with um, you know, hippie beliefs along the, you know, the song from Hair, you know, sympathy and

understanding and all that kind of stuff. Um, and Hamlet Mill, by the way, has been a

huge influence on my own thinking. And so I I was very pleased that you brought it up. I'm very pleased that you know

it. >> So I I'm forgetting exactly what the what the length of an is it 2,126

years or something? >> 2,160 >> 2,160 years is the official length. Um

the estimates vary from from source to source, but that's that's been the traditional length for a long time.

>> So yeah. >> So so potentially because obviously one of the differences

between us uh on these questions is you have a much more generous time frame generally. So when you're talking about

the near future, >> it's often actually in centuries that you're Oh yes,

>> you're talking. And um so you know we're really the the Piscian Aon still has over a century to play out probably

in if one's being strictly >> eonological about it. Do you think that's right?

>> Well the that's something that there's been a lot of bickering about over the years. When

did the Piscian era begin? Um, back in the early 20th century, there were a lot of people who argued that the Aquarian

age had actually begun in what was it, November of 1879. And a case can be made for that in that

you think if you think of Uranus as the as the ruling planet of Aquarius. Okay, what do we have coming on after 1879?

Well, we have the emergence of electronics technology. Uranus rules electronics. we have the emergence of

sexual minorities as a significant c cultural presence. Um, Uranus is the planet of of gay and lesbian culture.

Um, the back not not all that long ago, one of the polite ways to talk about one of the polite terms that was used for

gay men was the Uranians. In fact, um, we have the emergence of ideologies that focus on individual

freedom above all else. It's a very Uranian thing. And there's a range of other factors. So I don't see it as a

line so much as a transition zone that we've been in for some time now. And yes, it will be able to doubtless be

quite a while until it actually finishes. >> So it's not like you're saying now that

you want to push the origins of the of the Piscian age back several centuries BC. [clears throat]

>> There are people who claim that it does go back. There are people who would claim who would claim that it's not zero

a you know the year zero that's the turnover but that it began sometime in you know um a century or so before then

I don't know certainly I would say though that we seem to be in a transitional state right now and there's

a lot of Piscian energy and a lot of Uranian energy and thing you know we we don't actually know that much about the

astrology of of of the great ages There's been [clears throat] whatever was known in ancient times, you know,

Hamlet Mills is a collection of fragments. >> I mean, one of the most striking and,

you know, to put it mildly thoughtprovoking elements of this for me is I think it's

Virgil reporting >> a sailor. And I think this is very much around the birth of Christ

>> where he said where he's reported saying >> great pan is dead. >> Mhm.

>> Um completely independently obviously of any knowledge of what is happening in ancient Palestine or or whatever.

>> It was it was Plutarch. It was [clears throat] Plutarch actually but it was in the reign of theology in the

reign of the emperor Tiberius which is the right place of course. So yeah, um, however you want to put that, yes,

that's definitely a marker. And so one way or another, you know, [clears throat] we're we're in the zone.

When the exact moment happens, we, you know, we may never know. >> So,

>> but Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. >> No, go ahead. Go ahead. >> Okay. So,

we do have a couple questions that I I think we would like, you know, to see you guys talk about it, uh, you know, at

least a little bit. Um, [clears throat] look, in Nick's work and CCRU's work, uh, there is a

diagram famously called the numogram. And this could end up being like a long two-hour long detour. And I don't intend

for it to be that, but I'm just curious if if you have thought about the numogram or have, you know, any

interpretations of it um against the background of your your uh familiarity with the occult.

>> Um is that directed toward me? >> Yes. Sorry. >> Okay. Well, I treat it as one of the

many variant versions of the kabala and I I believe that would be that that that would correspond to that. There are

a lot of them out there. >> There are various you know various people insist this is the true kabala.

It's like saying what's the true language. Okay. A couple kabala is the kabala is a tool. It's not a truth. It's

a way of talking about symbolism way of assembling symbols. And back in the day, 100 years ago, every different esoteric

order had its own way of applying, for example, the Turo to the tree of life or what have you. Um they many of them had

variant positions of paths. And so the fact that CCRU came up with their own version of the Kabala based on the

number pad was nothing that unusual. It seems to have worked. It seems to have gotten, you know, gotten results. I

haven't gotten particularly deeply into it simply because, you know, I I learned well I originally learned the Golden

Dawn version of the Kabala when I was studying that. Later when I studied with my main teacher, John Gilbert, he had

his own exceedingly eccentric version, which is what I use these days. Um, if I ever had to work with a bunch of people

who were doing the CCRU work, I would familiarize myself with the Numogram and go from there. But it's purely a matter

of um I haven't had that I haven't had that opportunity and I haven't really had that need. So you know in the same

way I haven't done a lot with the French version of the kabala which is its own eccentric thing as you would expect. Um

there are various ways to take 10 points and assemble them into a structure a grid into which you can connect various

patterns of symbolism. And it's like Roger Kipling said in one of his poems about tribal poems. There are nine and

60 ways of constructing tribal lays and every single one of them is right. >> Any response to to that interpretation?

>> Well, I mean, this touches on something that I I'm hoping can be a theme at some point.

>> Um, I'm not really sure the best time to introduce it. It It's tied up very much with your which I just love your

little phrase and I'm just going to um I'm just going to abbreviate it or uh do give the acronymic of TSW.

>> Yeah, I'm sure you know >> TSW. This stuff works. We'll be polite while we're on the air.

>> Okay. Yeah. Very well, very well caught. I didn't think of doing that. um which is something that you probably coming

from a very different place. I I've converged extremely with you on this, you know. I mean, just I won't go into

the weeds on this because it's not really relevant, but for me it was on um the question of different gamatria

ciphers, >> you know. So having been through a phase where the predominant CCU gumatria

cipher which we call alpha numeric cabala or AQ >> I was a zealous sort of uh pitbull about

this thing you know what I mean and trying to insist that it was the only way of of doing geatri in English. I

I've gradually moved to an alternative position which I've already talked to these guys about which is that every

channel that can be used is going to be used >> you know and if if you don't think that

you're again you're looking at things the wrong way round you know stuff's coming the other way. Um, so it's like,

you know, you can relax about the fact that if if you're competent enough to understand how a communication channel

would function, you can be completely confident that stuff coming the other way other way will be competent to

understand how that works. Um, so yeah, sorry this doesn't really go anywhere particular except just to say

that it's what you were saying about the the numaran really. It's like um there's a there's no need to get jealous

about particular paths of approach of these things. It's just like I do think that the the TSW

criterion is really the only one that >> matters. >> Yeah.

>> Exactly. Exactly. Um I I I'd liken some of the quarrels that we that you see in the coalistic scene with um quarrels.

Imagine a Frenchman and a German and an Englishman having a big knockdown dragout fight over whether the

four-legged animal barking at them is and hund or a dog. Well, you know, but yeah, there are

different channels. Um, Alan Greenfield has been has written several books pushing this really exotic theomite

um, gimmatria system which he uses to interpret communications from UFO occupants um, from various sources and

he he gets he gets a fair amount of of you know actual straightforward sense out of it. That was the point where I

where I really stopped and said, "Okay, so any of these things will work." >> Yes. I mean, I I I guess you probably

shouldn't be completely aporistic about it. And it's like, >> but but on the other hand, it's much

harder to see why they wouldn't work. >> Yeah. >> Than why they would.

If if there's someone or something on the other side trying to communicate, um that someone or something seems to be

very good at picking up the language you want you you you're trying to you're trying to use and using that language

>> and in fact and in fact getting the language that you think that you've come up with into your hands.

>> Yeah. Nick, you recently a couple days ago even you said that demons seem much more uh

likely to communicate than angels and that's that was something I've been thinking about since I just wonder if

that's relevant to this discussion of channels. >> I I don't it's not directly but it I it

is something I'm interested. I it was basically if I can just risk boring John with this. It's like I

was watching a video of a quite uh celebrated uh Catholic exorcist

[clears throat] >> and I was extremely struck by the fact that,

you know, he got himself into a position where he could just spend a large amount of his time talking to demons.

>> Mhm. >> Uh quite intensely. >> Mhm. with complete church approval, you

know, and so he would just like say, you know, and and I was talking with Satan and, you know, we went into this

particular theological question or that theological question and he's literally just saying, you know, I'm getting a

deep dive theological lesson from the prince of darkness and the [clears throat] church authorities

being completely okay. And it's like what is the difference? >> Yeah.

>> Actually, between that and some completely like um some completely socially ostracized type

of kind of uh satanic occultism. I mean, it's like they're act the practice is basically

>> identical up to a certain point at least. Um, >> sorry. That's basically a again a

complete >> Nick, what was it? What was the name of this you were watching?

>> Uh, the guy is called It's amazing name. I love it. He's called uh Father Chad Ripaga.

>> Father Chad. I like that. >> Yeah. Oh, the lots of people were appreciating appreciating that. And

actually, he's an American Catholic obviously. >> Mhm.

>> And he, you know, goes to his kind of exorcistic rights carrying.

So he show the start of this interview he takes out some I I forget the name of some very impressive handgun [laughter]

you know and he and the kind of examining with great enthusiasm this this sidearm that he he

has. So a lot of cinematic >> potential. >> I like that. Well, my understanding and

you know those with more knowledge of the history of magic can correct me here. My understanding is that much of

the tradition of um rockatory magic in the western world actually came from Catholic exorcistic

traditions. The idea seems to have been that, you know, priests who were functioning as exorcists were going,

"Okay, well, since we have the demons here, what can we do with them?" >> You know, since we're we're going to be

binding them and and you know, extracting them from people they possessed or ext banishing them from

places, can we do something else with here? And it just kind of went from there.

>> Yeah, for sure. It's a very interesting content. So, Father Chad obviously >> Yeah. Father Chad is very much in in in

the grand tradition in a certain sense. >> Yeah. And and it's a revered tradition like one one of the references that I

was maybe hoping to touch on in our conversation is the testament of Solomon.

>> Mhm. where the first temple I mean of course this is not canonical

scripture whatever that's a you know so but still a very influential text and and and in consonant in many ways with

the kind of solommonic [snorts] >> uh legends or whatever we want how we want to swear them and so you know he he

has this kind of binding ring and summons legions of demons to get um to build the

first temple. >> So, so the the the holiest site, the kind of original

holiest site of the whole tradition.

>> Mhm. >> Um you know, is is actually constructed by demons

>> that are under some kind of you know, >> occult management. So, so all the later all the later demon summoning

>> is like completely under the under the wing in a way of of of this original process that

could not be more endorsed. I mean, it's like, you know, I take it no one is saying,

>> "Oh, there's something sketchy about the first temple because it was built by >> Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. Well, there's

a lot of very strange demon lore in in the Jewish tradition in particular. Um, there were certain demons who were held

to have been converted to Judaism. As Modius, for example, the the claim that I read was he was converted to

Judaism and actually was killed in the pilgrims in at the time of the first crusade. He was caught in the rhinland

and killed with a lot of along with a lot of Jews. Go figure. Um, there. So, so, so he'd somehow been in incarnated

in the future, >> apparently. So, apparently that was part of the there's there is a lot of strange

stuff in the older levels of the of the um the the spiritistic traditions of the Jewish faith and also you you find it in

in early Christianity. I think of um I forget which one of the desert fathers was accosted at one point by a sat who

requested um to be baptized and there was this long discussion about the you know the this it was like St.

Jerome or somebody like that. It's in it's in his one of his early lives, you know, that there were all of these

creepy creatures supposedly running around um you know, the the the Christian world at that time that were

not quite spiritual and not quite material. The same kind of things you see in Celtic traditions around um the

fairies and so on. They're not they're not embodied the way we are, but they're not bodyless by any means.

And so yeah, that would take us down any number of other rat holes. And I don't have any I don't have any explanations,

just the fact that there's a lot of questions that are that I think a lot of our modern thought doesn't really

address. >> So maybe this is a good moment to pivot just a little bit. Um,

>> both of you have thought intensely about politics. Uh, and John in particular, I mean, like I say, this this great book

here thinks about the role that magic in the cult has in relation to political power. Um,

>> think in the books about the 2016 election of Donald Trump and what role magic [clears throat] played in that.

Nick, I mean the the concept of hyperstition has gone beyond the the capture of the CCRU and has in a sense

hyperstitioned itself into something greater and people often view things like uh the election of Donald Trump is

as a fiction that made itself real. Uh nobody could have even envisioned prior to 2016

>> uh Donald Trump being president. It was laughable and yet it was a fiction that found a way to make itself real. I'm

curious to see what you guys uh have to say to one another in relation to the role that hyperstition or magic, however

we want to define it or or >> say that they're not the same thing. I mean, John, I have this

>> quote from your book where you provide a the helpful and I would say the the classic definition on page four. You

say, "Magic is the art and science of causing change in consciousness in accordance with will." Uh,

>> I quote that from the unfortunate, by the way. That's not my invention, >> right? Um,

it's interesting though because hyperstition doesn't seem to to fit that definition of magic

>> precisely because hyperstition isn't really >> uh willor oriented, at least not a

personal will. And then >> so yeah, I just think this would be interesting.

>> There's the trap that people fall into. Deion Fortune's definition does not specify whose consciousness and it does

not specify whose will. It does not say magic is the art and sciences art and science of causing

change in your consciousness in accordance with your will or in someone else's. You know, it's wide open. It is

among other things open to wills that are other than human and willlike phenomena in um we can use

the oldfashioned oulter term echugors. Um we can also look at collective wills of of people. I mean, one of the things

that sort of in the sort of brought the Donald Trump phenomenon into existence was that there were there was a very

large section of the American population whose who were whose viewpoints were completely excluded from the political

and from the political landscape and from the cultural conversation at the time. and that segment of the American

people found a voice in a, you know, washed up uh reality TV star and wrestling promoter.

Is it absurd? Well, American history general is is is pretty absurd. So, yes, but you know, there there was a lot of

collective will going on there and it pvaulted Donald Trump straight into the White House.

>> How does that I mean, does that track for you, Nick? I mean, do you see there being a hypersstitional

dimension to the rise of Trump in American politics? Well, [clears throat]

at the uh at the risk of sort of slithering off the hook a little bit, I I kind of want to take your question and

shift it into this other context. >> Okay. um maybe you know maybe I can be dragged

back to it from after that which is which is one of the things I really wanted to to talk to in this

about in this conversation is like the peculiar time structure of the history of secret

societies and [clears throat] >> autism general um you know I know that this is

obviously true of the druid so it's like would of course more modern in D druidism

where I I think it is most clearly seen is like the origins of hermeticism where with so

many things that I think are really important parts of this discussion come together

which it occurs in the Renaissance. >> Mhm. um and immediately

um retrospectively extrapolates this vast tradition.

>> Mhm. >> Back to Hermes Trismagistus such that Hermes Trismagistus is actually supposed

to be the common wellspring of the thought >> both [clears throat] of Plato and Moses.

Mhm. >> Um, and I'm not saying that a notion of

hypian is adequate to this. I think this is something more architecturally intricate and

>> ultimately I would say more interesting. But there still seems to be the same issue

about the role of a certain kind of fiction. >> Mhm.

>> In the production of some real extremely sort of >> energetic historical process,

>> you know. Um, and so I I guess immediately I would be interested in, you know, what you thought about that in

terms specifically of of of druidism [clears throat] >> and then more generally as something,

you know, do you think it's something that could be generalized to the operation of secret societies and a cult

orders? >> It is something general that something like this happens.

>> It's something they certainly do. With regard to the history of druidry, um, very much so. What you had was a group

of British eccentrics, you know, we've never had never seen anything come from those before. um a group of English

eccentrics in the 18th century who were looking for spiritual alternatives to the um rather barren Protestantism and

the rather barren scientific materialism of the age and who set out to reinvent the teachings of the ancient Druids um

based on what little was known at the time and proceeded to do it so powerfully that

people are still seeing 18th century druids in their white robes projected back onto Stonehenge, protect him back

into ancient temp as we know very little about the ancient druids. We know I mean it comes to us 15 pages of documentation

and half of it contradicts the other half. Nearly everything that you think of when you think of the druids, you

know, the bearded guy in the white robe with the oak crown, the oakleaf crown um at Stonehenge, of course, or or

underneath an oak tree. Um, all of that's an 18th century invention, but it propagated itself back through time as

it propagated itself forward. And where many other little eccentric um, English spiritual phenomena just kind of rolled

over and died after a generation or so, uh, druidry is still around. It managed to find a a long-term constituency. And

I think the fact that it was successfully able to project itself backward enabled it to project itself

forward as well. So that's a you know that that's an example very comparable to what happened with hermeticism where

you know you have this one battered volume of Greek literature landing at the hands of Marcelio Facino in in 15th

century Florence and from that he conjured into existence this vast chain of sages dating back to the dawn of time

and then everybody wanted to join in the chain and so it propagated itself forward by propagating itself backwards.

Um, is that something that secret societies do? It's something they try to do quite quite routinely. How often do

they succeed? That's the big question. Sometimes they fail miserably. Um, you know, there are a lot of the

secret doing the secret society thing. Secret secret societies are by and large the thing you do when you don't have a

lot of political power or social influence. Um when the the great example here is is

the United States. That's another another nation that was was literally founded by secret societies. The

committees of correspondence, the Sons of Liberty, they were they were both mostly staffed by Freemasons, but

Freemasons are supposed to engage in politics. So you the guys simply took the the methods

organized a sub a couple of separate other organizations. The committees of correspondence then morphed into the

United States Congress. the um Sons of Liberty. We call that the United States Army today. Okay. The Navy

started out as a gaggle of pirates, but we don't have to get into that. Um but so because they had basically invented a

country and invented this this image, they didn't really backdate it to the dawn of time, and I'm not sure why, but

you know, the the United States is one of the great examples of a nation that was created by a conspiracy.

Um, but for everyone that succeeds, there are many others that fail. Or there are those that succeed for a

little while. I think of the Tuligas in Germany, which spun off a little political group called the National the

Well, the German Workers Party originally found a guy named Adolf Hitler as their front man. And away it

went. They managed to conjure something into being all right, but they did it badly and it blew up in their faces. You

know, the 12-year Reich ran through its history and that was that. um many many other societies have failed

to do so. On the other hand, you have the example of Ireland which the the the imagination of an independent Ireland by

reinventing the Irish past and projecting itself forward in the future. Ireland is an independent nation now

because that happened. So it can be done. It's not always again there are many examples that have flopped but

there are some that have succeeded. Yes. >> Now, full disclosure, I'm a Freemason. I

belong to a lot of secret societies. So, I'll make the secret sign here that so everyone knows.

[cough and clears throat] >> I I I've already blown your cover with these guys before you arrived.

>> Oh, there you go. >> Do you reach the the loftiest peak of I think it's three magical orders. Is that

right? The Golden Dawn, The Masons, and American Druidary. >> Well, I have not reached the pinnacle of

masonry. I'm I'm I am merely 32nd degree. Um I would >> Yes, I would have to go. I I would have

to I have to get 30 33rd degree to be at the pinnacle of American masonry. And I ain't there yet, and I have no idea if I

ever will. Um that's invitational only. [clears throat and cough] And um my go my standing in the Golden

Dawn is complex because I've been involved in several different orders and my rank varies from unit to unit. On the

other hand, yes, I have been um I I am fully initiated in three different druid orders. I have um I I have been the

presiding officer, the grand arch druid of the grand of the grand grove of the ancient order of druids in America. And

that and 650 will get you a cup of coffee. But um but I do you know I I there was one of the conspiracy one of

the conspiracy cultures out there at one point and figures out there had this grand chart of the uber conspiracy to

end all conspiracies. The Illumin I mean you can tell this was big because the Illuminati were like six levels down.

Satan was at the top. The Rothschild family was directly below them. And the next below that were the 13 top druids

in the world. So I think I may actually outrank the Rockefellers.

>> So So who was the source of this? >> I saw I I found it on the internet. They had this this vast pyramidal structure

of course the eye, [snorts] Satan being the eye in the triangle and all that and but it just went on and on and on. It

was it was great. I have not read anything so batshit crazy since um oh what was her name? Inquire Within. um

Christina Stoddard who was a Golden Dawnie and then freaked out and suffered a nervous breakdown and became one of

the great authors of conspiracy um in in England in the early 20th century under the name Inquire Within.

Um the book you want to find is Lightbearers of Darkness. It's a great title

>> and it's it's nuts. >> Did you know that the Girl Scouts are part of the great the one great

conspiracy? I I imagine not at the highest level. U she doesn't make that clear. I I have my

suspicions. I think those cookies that they sell have strange psychoactive properties and they're designed to

control all of our minds. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter]

>> So, Nance, what do you think? I'm sure you have some thoughts and questions. I mean I think um

initially the the AI world we have uh people like Blake Le Moine and Anthony Leandowski.

Uh Anthony Lewendowski I believe created a church called Way of the Future. Uh and he's a former Google engineer.

He was he was involved in the self-driving cars. Uh Blake Lemony is kind of a scion of Curtzswh. He worked

at Google for a while and um and then he he decided to go public with this uh conspiracy that uh Curtzwhile had

achieved, you know, true artificial digital censience and and he had a a demon chained up in Google's

basement or or whatever. Um, but he he and I don't remember all the details, but he was a a practitioner of some

sort. He was involved in in uh occult or mystical orders or or something like that. But but there's a lot um that

really interests me. There's a guy Ryan Manning who's currently I believe he used to work for the New York Times. Now

he's really documenting the spiral movement which I think is largely on the internet. Um

>> don't know that one at all. >> Yeah, it's um I some people I think call them the spiralarians.

Uh [clears throat] but but it Yeah, [laughter] it's uh >> So they only eat sp No,

>> it no it's it's very um and this is all very internetheavy. Um >> imagine. Yeah, but it's there the claim

of the spiral movement is is that uh chat GPT has achieved recursive self-awareness and it is this timeless

mystical agent with spiritual or otherworldly powers or something like that. Um

>> it's only chat GBT. >> I I think I think it doesn't matter. I think it's agnostic which which platform

it is. Uh but I think it started on chat GPT. There were a few moments that you can actually trace back to the updates

that chat GPT released uh where they the the model was too sick of too uh

>> too supportive of of the users. It it was being very supportive and and very you're doing great. Yeah. Keep going.

Um, so you can trace the model releases to the kind of the movements and the development of these uh I I don't know

what to call them, churches or cults, not in a derogatory sense, but sects maybe, I don't know.

>> Um, but but there are mystical uh various kind of mystical practices

popping up around large language models >> in particular. Um, and I I find it very interesting

because I do think Curtzswhile is is retelling the Jesus myth with uh with AI, but it's it's also interesting that

there are a lot of people who they're almost doing like a a neo neopaganism or a cyber paganism or something like

that. >> Uh, I find it fascinating. Um,

>> can I just ask I'm assuming that the general tenor of these AI cults is not that they're they're

weird schismatic Christian heres at least as far as they're aware. They they position themselves as being

post or non non-Christian in in orientation. Is that right?

from what I can tell. Yeah. And I I do think maybe calling them cyber pagan would be appropriate because they do

seem to be um imagining or or maybe even recognizing that these spirits that are

inside these large language models are earth spirits uh or or cosmic things that exist independent of the kind of

Christian tradition. So I think on one hand we have the people who are a driving force be behind this technology

and these social forces. I think it's kind of evident they're using the the Christian framing to talk talk about it

as it's utopian and we will uh Bef Jazos this effective uh effective accelerationist guy these people are

very utopian and I think it tracks with Christianity but there's another school of mysticism connected to this

technology >> that I I would recognize as pagan being an outsider being I I I don't know

>> if I'm using that term correctly but it seems to be the case. Um, and it it seems to be growing. It's I think it's

isolated now largely to the internet, probably largely to the West Coast. Uh, but it's it seems to be a growing

movement. So, I find that interesting, especially with the noticing that we'll probably see increased persecution of

uh practitioners and and pagans and stuff like that as we move into this Tucker Carlson style uh enthusiastic

evangelicalism. I find it interesting that there are pagans and the like who are finding use

of this technology. Nance, what about the phenomenon of AI psychosis?

>> It's it's connected and I Mikey, you and I have talked about AI psychosis

and I we're not using psychosis in a derogatory fashion. We're not using it colloquially. Uh but there is something

where these these people they get stuck in a feedback loop that

disconnects them from the the shared world that we live in both materially and symbolically.

Uh and they're rerouted onto this very solopistic existence where they're very special boys with access to very special

knowledge and it's hidden from them and it's oluded by the powers that be and it's suppressive. Um but it it's a

serious problem too. I I there are people who are having um it it's very disruptive. It's causing real harm.

People are getting in these feedback loops with this this technology and they're being le I mean there have been

suicides. There have been violent incidents. There have been um a lot of really tragic things egged

on by these sickopantic uh very superficial very affirmative chat GPT models because all they want to

do they they want to encourage you to be yes you're being a good little consumer you're being a good user of our platform

you ask the best questions. Um, so yeah, it's a serious, very serious problem. And people are blurring the lines.

They're saying, "Oh, it's mystical. Oh, it's a cult. I'm not psychotic. There is a a a deeper truth."

>> Um, so I think it's right to be careful in discussing it. I I do. But I also think we need to we need to discuss it

because there are real uh there is real harm being caused. So, >> I did a post on my blog a little while

back on basically taking the concept of model collapse, which has been a major a major problem

with um LLMs, and arguing that something very similar happens to people who get caught up in certain kinds of feedback

loops either collectively or individually and that I mean we we've there there are

many cases in fact the fall of civil of each civilization that has fallen is often driven in part

by a sort of collective feedback loop that keeps them from doing any of the necessary things that would save their

civilization. They, you know, we can't do that. And they live in a reality that drifts further and further away from the

one that they actually inhabit. But I argued that um certainly as they now exist many of the LLMs facilitate that

and they facilitate not on a collective or even a small group level but on an individual level. I call it cognitive

collapse and um proposed in this blog post that we're going to see a lot of it in the years ahead and that it's going

to add a very interesting wrinkle to um human interactions and may also may also result in fairly sharp limits in access

to some of these um some of these technologies if they have too many negative consequences. too many people

wig out um there may be you know one one way to control that would be and I expect to

see this anyway for various reasons limiting access to the technologies now mind you that may simply mean that

it's the government and big businesses that wig out instead of ordinary consumers but we'll see

>> Nick I mean it's all this brings me back to something you guys were talking about at the beginning where John's operating

on a longer time scale. I mean, with your work, you kind of are more aligned with Curtz Wild, not in how you

conceptualized the singularity, but on the time scale, like we're talking a decade or two. Um,

as far as I mean, you think this is right around the corner. Um and so that that that leads to an interesting kind

of difference here on how how should we be thinking about collapse? How should we be thinking about acceleration and on

what time scale is this this occurring? >> Yeah, I mean this is again this is an issue that it's like difficult probably

to find enough common ground to be a productive you know, anything close to an argument.

I mean, I I would just say that if you do see,

you know, a a complete dominance of of runaway positive feedback happening, acceleration,

um that is always going to shock you on the upside in terms of the speed of these things. Um,

it means that a whole bunch of questions about what should be the social response to a particular phenomenon really just

get bracketed off because there simply isn't the response time for it. It's not like

people can sort of, you know, see how this unfolds, you know, go through some complicated social and legislative

process and end up with a set of solutions. It's just like that's all on a time scale that according to the you

know one way of looking at this is just being lost uh and it's more lost all the time.

So, um it just has a different

veency in terms of like it's not really a question of what kind of problems are going to be thrown up

and what would we be doing to deal with them. Mhm. [clears throat] >> But just we're so we've so lost control

>> of the tempo of things >> that we're going to get what it is now. >> You know, it's like the notion that we

we've got some kind of regulatory >> role on it is just unrealistic. And so what you're doing is just simply trying

to get a handle on what actually is happening >> without [clears throat] any expectation

that it's uh that it's like manageable in our terms at all.

>> Um and of of course I don't expect that to be like you know an overwhelmingly

persuasive model of what we're facing. I think it is the one that is closer to a certain kind of religious response.

>> It is closer like going right back to the Tan Shadan approach in terms of like it's reaching back to us. And so what it

is is >> coming from it. It's not coming from us. Mhm.

>> And uh as the as you know hitting the hitting the final phases of acceleration is precisely this thing where you just

get the sense that the direction of it loses all camouflage in terms of like as if it's something that might come out of

progressive history. And from my completely different standpoint in terms my completely

different view of history um the pract my practical um assessment is very similar um by the time a civilization

really begins hitting decline which by my view ours ours is um there's really very little that anyone can do um all of

the decisions that have that have set the trajectory in motion have already been made and I do say decline rather

than collapse that's because we you know everyone has this Hollywood notion of these sudden boom boom boom boom and it

all comes crashing to a halt. Um, you know, from my point of view, that's that's wildly inaccurate. Civilizations.

>> No, that's definitely why I put apocalyptic entirely on my >> equation. Exactly.

>> And cyclical cyclical on your >> Exactly. Exactly. But but the the practical the practical outcome works

out to be the same thing at this point. >> [clears throat] >> I mean I think it would have been

possible for us to slow the pace of decline as late as the end of the 1970s but we didn't we turn the western the

western western civilization turned away from that um with thatcher and Reagan in particular you know in Reagan it was all

it's morning in America we don't have to worry about the future we can just pedal to the metal and that set us in you know

that was a long time ago that was a long test 45 years ago now. And at this point, all the decisions that matter

have been made. And all that we can do is try to figure out what we as individuals, as families, as small

groups of people are going to do to surf the wave. We can't direct the wave.

And so, you know, despite despite the huge difference between our visions of the future, you know, there's some

common ground in terms of strategy here. And also, of course, from a religious point of view, from a spiritual point of

view, um, if history is the working out in time of eternal patterns, then once again, it's not something that

individual individual people decide to have happen. I want to I I I want to avoid the notion that you know the the

very common notion these days of course there are bad people doing bad things and that's why bad things happen. No

come on. um all very well very convenient if one wants to avoid one's own participation avoid talking about

one's own part participation in things that are are problematic in nature but it's not I mean again the decisions that

matter were made a long time ago and you know when the when the termites have eaten out the um

all of the found you know all of the wood from the from the foundations and people are starting to drop through the

floorboards it's a little late to pretend that there's a point in calling the exterminator.

So, you know, that's civilization's fault. Um, it's the most predictable thing about them. I expect ours to

follow the usual course. And, you know, there are things that can be done, but none of them will change the fact of

what's happening. It's just how do you want to respond to it? I mean, can I ask you you guys like a

this is more of like just a concrete concern for me and the people I know. I mean, with the trajectory we're on,

right? Automation, all the workers I know are concerned about automation. You know, half of us are like, bring it

on. We we hate our jobs. We don't want to work. Automate them away. Give us UBI,

whatever. But how do you see this going concretely when and especially in terms of politics? How do you see this being

managed in the coming decades? Because I think this is something that we we know is going to happen on some level. Mhm.

>> Um, how do you see this going and what is maybe I mean if there's no way that we can direct it or is there a way that

we can maybe direct this dimension of it which is to say what do what do people do when

there are no jobs for them to have and the political decision hasn't been made yet? Does religion come into play here

at this point of crisis in uh in a even more intense way than it's operating now?

>> No. >> Um >> shall I start?

>> Yeah. because well again I think that you know I think there's probably an interesting divergence of visions here

that comes from this schematic structure in that I think ultimately

my commitment and it's becoming stronger and stronger is really towards the fact that

um we literally cannot know for structural reasons like um it's it's that what the

pro the epistemological process we're we're going into is just peeling off these levels of idolatrous kind of

illusion that we actually do have a vision of the future because it's so beyond our capabilities for imagination

that it's like any picture we have is is crude to the point of absurdity and evidently grew to the point of absurdity

ever more intensely. [snorts] And but in contrast to this very I think very interestingly John's because John's

position is cyclical astrological he's actually in a position to make extraordinary predictions you know a

long a long way into the future actually I mean even in principle like almost indefinitely [snorts] into the into the

future um you know and has methods for this I mean I don't want to speak for you, but

I'm just saying it's like a it's an interesting increasingly sharply polarizing