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So Patty, for some time we've seen American forces building up a presence around Iran. And early this morning, the attack that had been anticipated for some time began. >> A short time ago, the United States military began major combat operations in Iran. Our objective is to defend the American people by eliminating eminent threats from the Iranian regime, a vicious group of very hard, terrible people. >> We've seen videos from Tehran, the country's capital, of smoke billowing from buildings, >> and the now familiar sounds of sirens ringing out in Israel. followed by explosions which the BBC has authenticated across Gulf states where the US has bases. >> Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. >> We're talking to you and recording at 12:38 on Saturday. We are in the very early stages, Paddyy, but this looks like it could be a very grave chapter in the many chapters of conflict in the Middle East. It's Laura in the studio. Yes. >> Hello. It's Patty in the studio >> and it's Lee Tusette joining Patty and Laura in the studio at this momentous time. It feels like a huge day lease and we're lucky to have you with us today with all your experience including your recent experience of being in Iran. newscasters. A bit later in the program, we will be talking to the deputy Labour leader, Lucy Powell, because it's skin a huge 36 hours in UK politics, too. But of course, all the headlines today are focusing on this new stage of conflict in Iran and which appears to be spreading across the Middle East with retaliation from the Iranians towards Israel and other places. Even Abu Dhabi and Riyad also reports of strikes across the region. So, let's just take this step by step. In the most basic sense, Lee, what is the first thing that happened here? >> At about 6:30 in the morning, uh GMT, we heard the first reports uh that Israel had attacked Iran. It was described as a preemptive strike. Soon after we got the first videos from Tehran of plumes of smoke rising from some of the main squares, then from Israel, the reports of people being told to go into the shelters of of air air raid sirens, just an early warning that nothing was in the air, but just get ready. There's possibly advanced warning warning signals. People immediately went into the shelters. Then we got reports. Then it escalated. We had reports of many more cities in Iran coming under attack. And then Iran retaliated, not just against Israel, but as you mentioned, against other Arab capitals in Bahrain, in Kuwait, in Jordan, in Saudi Arabia, in the UAE, one after another. Iran had warned, repeatedly warned, that this time it wouldn't hold back. This time would be different. and especially if it considered that this battle was existential, it would use unprecedented force. And I think this is what we are seeing. President Trump in his when he first spoke 8 minutes in a post in a video on his truth social platform making it absolutely clear that as he has often said, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. We will destroy their ballistic missiles. but even more calling on Iranian security forces to lay down their arms and if they did they would have immunity. If they did not they would face the consequences. Telling the people of Iran to take shelter for now while the bombs are dropping but when the bombs stopped to seize the government institutions this would be their only chance in generations to take power >> and because uh >> it's about regime change. Finally, to the great proud people of Iran, I say tonight that the hour of your freedom is at hand. Stay sheltered. Don't leave your home. It's very dangerous outside. Bombs will be dropping everywhere. When we are finished, take over your government. It will be yours to take. This will be probably your only chance for generations. For many years, you have asked for America's help, but you never got it. No president was willing to do what I am willing to do tonight. Now you have a president who is giving you what you want. So let's see how you respond. America is backing you with overwhelming strength and devastating force. Now is the time to seize control of your destiny and to unleash the prosperous and glorious future that is close within your reach. This is the moment for action. Do not let it pass. Bear in mind that even though uh support has been draining away from uh the clerical uh regime that they they still have an ideological core that will fight to the last breath. They have the elite Islamic revolutionary guard corps established in 1979 whose specific mandate is to defend the revolution because they didn't trust the army. They thought it was too close to the shaw. You also have the Basiji which is the volunteer militia and we saw them on their motorcycles patrolling the streets of Thrron as a warning telling people don't come out in the streets you will know the consequences they will fight and it has to be said that in the during that extraordinary wave of protest that was put down with lethal force causing more casualties we still don't know the exact but certainly in the many thousands many thousands of deaths we had no reports that there were any defections in the security forces. No reports of any cracks in the regime. But now this is uncharted territory. What is happening now? And just to spin out for a bit of very very basic >> context of what we're talking about here, the sha was the former monarch the monarchy in Iran >> that was brought down in 1979 by the Iranian revolution which then became the Islamic revolution when kumeni returned from Paris and then this broad coalition of left-wing and activists civil society they all had come together but it soon became clear that this was an Islamic revolution, the Islamists would be in charge. >> And the reason that people have been out on the streets in the last few months and also previously in other protests that have been very very violently put down is because it is now a repressive regime. It's a regime that many countries in the west don't believe when they say that they're not trying to create a nuclear weapon. So just for that very basic context because but let's spell it out too. This is a country uh three times the size of Iraq. If you look at the last major US-led in inter intervention, major uh military operation um some 92 uh million uh people what we and the this last wave of protests in recent years there has been an uprising every few years. They were sparked by the traders in the bazaar who couldn't sell their electronic goods because there were the currency collapse and the Americans later uh confessed that they did that. They brought about the collapse of the real currency which went into freef fall against the dollar. So it began with the traders. It was an economic strike for over their financial wos. The students then joined in and then the spark lit a huge fire. It spread across many more social classes, people from many different walks of life and it spread across the country and spiraled into something much bigger. And speaking to people last night in the streets and markets and bizaars of Thrron, people would say to me, "Some people went out for economic reasons and the government acknowledged there were economic grievances. Some people went out because they were fed up with the corruption and the mismanagement. Others went out because they saw no way to improve their lives but that to bring down the regime. And I have to say for the very first time in going to decades in Iran, there were people who said to me, "I've got nothing to lose. It's not nice to have your country attacked, but an American air strike is the only way for me to bring down this government and to have a different life." But on the other hand, others really worried and they will be worried today as they try to find shelter. They don't want an attack. It's a it's a country pulling in different directions >> and we're seeing those divisions in some of the videos that are emerging on social media and it's very hard to verify the material that's coming out. There's often an internet blackout which we we understand is in place partly today. But when it comes then to the position of the Americans and why Donald Trump has made what is an a very audacious statement saying you know it is it is to use your phrase uh for America now about regime change for western allies including the UK the reason they've had so much concern about Iran is not just because of the repression in the country but because of Iranian backing of other groups around that region and their connections whether it's Hezbollah or whether it's Hamas and of course even now we know from the war in Ukraine you know, Russia and Iran have had strong links too. So, this is about that country. But I suppose the reason why Western allies and America has been so forceful in this is they would say that Iran is a regime that is fermenting terror way beyond their own borders. >> I mean, the thing is the West has got a really bad track record at changing the heads of oil rich states. We don't have enough newscast to go through all the times the West has done this. But what's different here, Lee, is that Trump has sent a mixed message. For the last three months, he's been on again, off again, and the people of Iran came out thinking he was going to act earlier. I think we could say that's true. So now that he has acted, do you understand why he said this is their last chance for generations, can you see why from the White House's position, staying off with the Armada parked in the sea is not the same message as acting with it? He had he can't just be in this position of preparing constantly, can he? >> But let's but let's we're in the early hours and let's look at how this is being described now. When the first report of Israel strikes came in, it was described as a preemptive strike. We suggested that they thought an attack from Iran was was imminent. There is no evidence to suggest no confirmed evidence that Iran was about to attack Israel or was about to do its own preemptive attack against American bases and individuals. some 40,000 US personnel across the region. So they haven't made their case. They haven't provided evidence of that. Attacking another country is also illegal. Remember before in the run-up to the US-led invasion of Iraq in 200 and3, George W. Bush toured the United States. He spoke in many capitals trying to make the case for war. He went to the UN Security Council. He built a coalition of other countries. President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu have done nothing of that. and they will think that this is not they will that that is secondary to what President Trump emphasized in his speech that Iran is the biggest state sponsor of terrorism. It's a threat. But there are and I'm not sure if you want to go through it now. The idea that for example in his State of the Union address, President Trump uh for the first time said that Iran was developing ballistic missiles which could reach the United States. In other words, a direct threat to us. the intelligence assessments, even the US intelligence assessments is that Iran is years away from developing intercontinental ballistic missiles. But yes, the idea is if we can try to understand from what they have said that they believe Iran is at its weakest. Its so-called axis of resistance or axis of fire was degraded in some ways destroyed around the region in the wake of the Gaza war. Hisbah is weakened. The Houthis the Houthis are somewhat weak. Yeah, the Houthis are weakened. the Iraqi militias, the militias, but they're still active and they are indicating they will become active active too. And they feel the regime is is at its weakest and they saw the protests into the streets. So they feel they have to strike now. >> So they see opportunity >> an opportunity. There is an opportunity and Prime Minister Netanyahu sees an opportunity with President Trump in the White House. The last thing I will say is I was discussing at the weekend I was at the well this week I was at the Geneva talks and discussing with people who are >> trying to get a deal >> trying to get the diplomacy and bear in mind Iran's nuclear ambition. >> Yes. This was a repeat of what happened last year when they were in the middle of negotiations and Israel struck shattering the negotiating track and it happened again this time. But discussing with people, President Trump has shown he likes short, sharp, successful operations like in Venezuela. And a lot of the argument has been that he hasn't that his military chiefs have been telling, look, if we start military operations, there's no guarantee we can bring about regime change. It's never happened before in history, as you said, Patty, that you can bring about regime change from the air. It might be messy. It might be violent but and there was an assessment that he would go for the short sharp successful to say I've done a nuclear deal better than Obama but he seems to have gone for the big prize that he wants to be able to say I have done it. I have ended nearly a half century of enmity with the evil Islamic Republic of Iran that has been threatening us from the very moment it took power. It's a big gamble. And in terms of then the other decision makers here, because this is about Donald Trump's ambitions, it's also about Benjamin Netanyahu's ambitions. And of course, he's got an election before too long coming up in Israel >> before October. Yeah. >> This is something that affects so many different parties here and I just wonder if you can assess how you think the decision would have been made between Israel and the US. You know what's that relationship really like there? Is this something that they would have plotted and planned together? Would Donald Trump have said I want to make this move? Will you come with me BB or other way around? How would you imagine that might have happened? >> Yes. And at some point today, I'm sure you've already been asking 10 Downing Street when did they find out? When did President Trump pick up the phone and say to the Circ Star, a leader he gets along with, uh, that we're we're going to be doing this? Well, he may not have done and the UK statement so far has been very careful to say we do not want Iran ever to get its hands on a nuclear weapon that must not be allowed. But it's interesting Karma has stopped short of the kind of backing that's been given from Anthony Albani, the Australian PM, and also Mark Carney, the Canadian leader, who seems to be more supportive of the American position. And so he's walking a very fine line, of course, having just lost a bi-election to a left-wing rival, but that's a story we'll come to in a bit. But it just partly because we're about to hear Clive Mary in Tel Aviv. I just wonder if you can explain how you think the decision-making would have gone between Israel and and America. You know, whose idea would it be to begin with? >> From the beginning when President Trump returned to the White House for a second time, Prime Minister Netanyao saw an opportunity. his whole life, one of his driving ambitions is to attack the nuclear installations of Iran to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. And suddenly he found this ally in President Trump. But it hasn't been easy sailing. You may remember that last year in the very week where Israel launched that carried out that strike which led to the 12-day war, the week started with President Trump saying to Prime Minister Netanyao, "Stop threatening Iran, you're getting in the way of my dealm." But when he saw the success of the Israeli strikes, then he said, "Oh, it almost made it sound we did this together." >> There were reports this week that that it would be Israel which would strike first and not the United States. And as soon as Israel struck, the first question was, is this a joint operation? Have they done this together? And it quickly became clear that this is a joint operation. There's a very close personal relationship between President Trump and Prime Minister Netany and a very important political relationship. What we saw finally was what we saw in the Gaza war was that President Trump started listening to other allies to the Qataris to the Emiratis to the Omanis but in particular to the Qataris after Israel tried to kill Hamas leaders in Qatar. Suddenly he was no longer using the talking points of Israel. He pushed Prime Minister Netanyahu to end the Gaza war to agree to a ceasefire and we saw this shift and in recent weeks the Emiratis, the Qataris, the have all been either in Washington or on the phone telling President Trump, don't do it. But what we are seeing today is this time Prime Minister Netanyahu prevailed and he has taken his argument this is my chance to change history. He loves that president. Who wouldn't? which leader wouldn't want to be making but it's a very big gamble. >> I mean history is all over it from the United States politics as well because in 1979 the year of the Iranian then Islamic revolution Jimmy Carter was the president launching a catastrophic rescue mission of hostages held in the US embassy in Tehran. And Donald Trump has referenced this because what then happened in the next presidential election is that Ronald Reagan became the president. But it was always seen as one of the defining political fault lines. Whose watch was it on when Iran fell and when our guys were taken is is a recurrent theme in American uh politics. It's not as big as the as the domestic issues, but it's been there for a long time. So you you've perfectly explained how in Israel the prime minister wants the history in America the white the president wants the history. So we turn to the people and let's talk as well about the people in bomb shelters all over the region including in Israel >> the ones who have bomb shelters. >> The ones who have them >> the Iranians don't have them. The Israelis have them and a lot if you're living in Dubai why would you have a bomb shelter? It's you know shopping central. These are place everyone is going to be finding you and Laura you keep coming back to this. How will we be affected? What if Iran closes down the street of Hormuz, one of the most important waterways where a huge percentage of the oil traffic goes through and all of the goods that reach Britain if this war drags on and this is not going to be a matter of just it's certainly not one day. It's going to be in days and possibly longer. It will be felt all the way to the high streets of of Britain. >> I notice you you use the word war then. >> I just we you are calling this a war now. There's no indication there's going to be anything else but a war. And for if you're sitting in Iran wondering where to find shelter, if you're sitting in a bomb shelter in Israel, this is a war. I know we sometimes is do we call it a conflict. They've made it clear that this is going to be many days. And just listen carefully to what President Trump said in that speech. His ambitions are are big. And if you're going to try to bring down the Islamic Republic of Iran, this is a major major military operation. And no doubt on the ground. We know that Mossad, the Israeli uh agent uh intelligence agency is on the ground. They played such a key role in the assassination of nuclear scientists and security chiefs last time. There will be this I was reading this week that this the Israelis say this has been years in preparation rehearsals and Iran has prepared. They learned lessons from the 12-day war. But but you talk about the people. What about the people of the United States, Patty, where the opinion polls show they don't want far, they don't want President Trump to go to war. Their concerns are the cost of living crisis, the immigration crisis. Unlike George W. Bush, he hasn't gone to Congress. And there's been criticism by leading Democratic lawmakers saying you've got to come to the come to Congress to get per to get authority to launch this war. He hasn't done that. He didn't really make the case for war. Let's see what happens in America as well. They're not going to be running to bomb shelters, but this is not what President Trump's base elected him to do. >> Let's then take you into one of those bomb shelters. Our colleague Clive Mer has been in Tel Aiv in Israel where there have been attacks. >> I'm surrounded by I don't know, scores and scores of families, some from uh the surrounding area. Uh they're not people who are staying at the hotel. This is a bomb shelter used by everybody. And uh in fact, a woman is just coming around now. She's making some kind of announcement. I'm not sure what, but no one seems to be moving. So, the danger is still imminent, it seems, which is why we're all down here. There are pets, there are dogs, there are families with their children running around. Uh, and this is obviously something that a lot of people here are used to, but given the situation now with what seems to be a concerted uh attack on Iran, not just from the Israelis, but from the Americans, then there are people here who are worried that this could go on for some time. Back to Iran. Where is the leader? The supreme leader. >> We are having reports at this time. They have targeted the residency offices of the Supreme Leader was an attempt to target him, to kill him. Uh the there's been reports in American media quoting Iranian officials that several uh Revolutionary Guard Corps, several Iranian officials have been killed. We've got no details. Uh we're still getting reports on the targeting, but I would it would not be surprising given what Israel did on the first day of the 12-day war. It was like nine nuclear scientists in one fell swoop. Three security chiefs. It was breathtaking the intelligence they they had to be able to target so many senior people and no doubt they have done it now. As we're speaking midday in London, we still are just getting we there were also reports that they targeted uh the president um Peskan and if they're targeting them, they must have been targeting security chiefs as well. >> And if the Americans and Israelis were successful as they might see it in taking out the Iranian leadership, perhaps even the supreme leader, what would the symbolism of that be, Le? >> Well, it's not just symbolism. It's have a huge impact. But what we've been hearing from uh Tan, what we heard when we were there is that they've learned the lessons of the 12-day war. they realize that they are targeted and they it came very close uh last time and that they there had been reports um in the New York Times and that they prepared a short list for the succession uh that uh during the 12-day war uh president the the supreme leader who's supposed to be the ultimate decision-m he prepared a whole level of alternatives if they take uh the head of the the senior commander of the IRGC there's another one to step in his place if he's also killed. There's another one in seven place. They have multiple levels of people ready to take charge. And indeed, the people who are now in charge this time are ones who have are quite inexperienced compared to the ones who actually were in charge during the 12-day war. They had to slip into these positions and now they're the ones who are at the command. And just when >> the way it works in Iran's clerical regime, pardon, >> just when you say the 12- day war, >> the war last year last year, summer last year when things were incredibly my opinion of your newscast listeners that I think now that when we say but you but you're but you're absolutely right. But there is a procedure in Iran. There is an assembly of experts, senior clerics. Their only job is to choose the next supreme leader. And there's been discussion amongst these clerics about who would be there said to have been for a long time a short list. and that short list as they've been looking at it of late to in the midst of what's happening now to ensure a transition. We just don't know what's going to survive at the end of the day. >> And we are so pleased, Lisa, that you've been joining us for newscast because it's only three weeks ago you were there reporting from Tehran. It's absolutely unique access for our organization and we're so proud to have you with us and we'll keep returning to this subject as things develop. >> We will. Thank you so much. >> And you know, people say, "Well, why should we be going?" And I have to say that it is reinforcement of just being on the ground being able to and the courage of Iranians. They came up to us. We want you to know what we think. And the way they poured out their emotions. Some people didn't want to talk, especially when there was a television camera. But so in a in a way that I haven't seen before, we want our views to be known in the world. We want our voices. We're angry. We want change. There was such a profound sense that Iran is now a different country and they see that there is a profound yearning for change. I think even at the very top echelons they understand but is it going to be the question always was and let's now it's different after this morning. Will it be change in the regime or will it like we're seeing in Venezuela or will it be regime change? >> Lee, thank you so much indeed and I'm sure we'll be I hope you'll be back with us very soon. So Paddyy, as promised, newscasters, we know you're a political nerds like the two of us, and we want to talk about the very important big political story in the UK here at home in the last couple of days, which was Labour's defeat at the hands of the Greens into third place, also by reform in the Gorton and Denton bi-election. And I'm pleased to say that we are joined by the deputy leader of the Labour Party, Lucy Powell, who was on the doors pretty much every day during that CA campaign. I think Lucy um >> welcome to newscast. What went wrong? >> Well, obviously it was very disappointing uh result for us and you know we weren't able to persuade people um enough people to to vote Labor or indeed that Labor was the best place party to defeat reform. And I think, you know, these are trends that we've seen happening and coming for for a while. And I think we've obviously now got to reflect further on that and make sure that we act and we adjust uh course and we listen to to what's been said in that bi-election. Um I mean what I would also say is that bi-elections aren't themselves a sort of predeterminant of a as a of a future election and and governing parties do often def get defeats in these sorts of bi-elections. But I don't want to underplay it in in any sense at all. This is in my own backyard. This is in a kind of labor heartland area. And we we lost. >> You've been saying though and other leading Labor figures, but particularly you ran your deputy leadership campaign on saying we have to change course. We have to do things differently. That doesn't seem to have happened, has it? >> Well, I think those messages have been heard. Um, but we now need to to go further and faster and and and get some urgency around that. I think we've got to be a lot clearer about uh the purpose of the Labor government. Make sure that we are really um telling the story about what Labor is doing in in this Labor government and how who side we're really on. And that will I think will help us to rebuild our voter coalition. the the perhaps the the some of the strategy that's been pursued in the past to to maybe try and out reform reform. I mean, I'm not sure that was actually the case, but that was how it was perceived, you know, is not a successful um course for us. And we really do need now to to work on rebuilding that broad-based voter coalition that we've always represented and that we need to continue to represent. I wonder if you can be as candid as you can be in answer to the question. Would Andy Burnham have held the seat for Labor? >> Well, he he probably would have done because I I think certainly the Greens wouldn't have gone after the seat in in the same way that they did. Um >> so that it's back to Kier, isn't it? Because Kier blocked Andy and Kier blocked you. So it's once again we're left asking questions about him. Well, look, I mean, I think the the the reasons for that decision and the reasons that I stand by because I I I accept collective responsibility in these things and collective decision-m the ry the worry was not necessarily about this particular bi-election but the subsequent bi-election that therefore would be required for the Greater Manchester Mayor. And I think what we can all sort of take this weekend is that perhaps we don't want that many bi-elections going forward because it is a challenging sort of time for us. But but what I would say is look, let's let's look at why Andy Burnham is is particularly popular because he is particularly popular um here in Greater Manchester and and across the the North because I think people uh do see in him someone who is on their side, someone who is delivering um those labor values and those labor policies like more social housing and better buses, more job opportunities um uh especially for young people. And um and we have to to draw on that, make use of Andy Burnham, but also draw on that and reflect on how we could do that better nationally and better as a government. And and I know from talking to K many many times over recent weeks before this bi-election and and since that that is something he is very focused on on doing on how we can give a a much clearer account of ourselves and be much clearer and define ourselves by whose side we're on and and and which vested interests we are taking on in order to to deliver for ordinary people across the country. >> So the prime minister needs to be more like Andy Burnham then. Well, look, let's let's let's learn from Andy and also bring Andy more more on board with what we're doing as well. Make better use of Andy. >> Yeah, because I I heard Clive Lewis on Radio 4 saying Labor has take has gone against children, disabled people, pensioners, and he he's he bemons Pat McFaden saying we've got to win from the center. He thinks the Down Street operation's been captured. Do you think the down street operation's been captured? >> We look we've seen a lot of changes in in in the operation there um re recently as well. We what what I would say is that we of of course we've got to to rebuild that broad-based voter coalition the the kind of progressive alliance if you like that and make sure that we are absolutely seen as the key people to take on the far view of the world because there are now two emerging kind of views of the world in in domestic politics today. There are those on the right now now now actually led by Nigel Farage and and his sort of Tory wannabes with with the sort of Tories in in tow there as well who think that economically the status quo is fine that more trickle down economics that tax breaks for the richests and and getting rid of workers rights and the equality rights and those kind of things that's the way to run the economy but instead they want to blame immigrants and pit neighbor against neighbor and and we represent very different um political values and and a political ical home and we say that we need big change in the economy and we need to rewire the country. Now we've got to be very clearly the leaders of that voter coalition of that world view that says Nigel Farajin is ilka wrong and that Labor values and our values are the right way to change the country and we haven't done that strongly enough and we've really got to do that. I think >> the problem you've got though is that in Gorton and Denton people looked at you and I know you and lots of other colleagues were on the door sort of every day. I know that the candidate and the team fought very hard and thought going into it that you might have been okay was the suggestion from the top of the Labor party, but voters looked at you and thought you're not the leaders of that coalition. Actually, the Greens are the leader of that coalition. So, is it now wrong or do you have to shift the strategy that the prime minister's been using for the last six months or so to say, ah, this is a fight between labor and reform because it looks quite different after Gorton and Denton. It looks now that you're being squeezed on both sides. Well, look, obviously the the the Greens were more effective in making that argument in this particular bi-election and and as I say, sort of bi-elections have their own kind of uh chemistry and dynamics at at play there that don't necessarily play out then into a general election. I I don't think there's any reasonable suggestion that the Greens are going to be forming the government at the next election. I do think that when you're three years away, can you I mean, isn't it the problem? Some people in your own party were saying to me privately yesterday, part of the problem with how the cabinet um responded to this on the record yesterday when Heidi Alexander, the transport secretary, was sent out to do the the morning round and we're grateful to you for giving us your time this afternoon. But part of the problem was it sounded tenered to say, "Oh, well, the Greens can't possibly replicate this everywhere. You can't be sure of that. This may be three years to the next general election." Well, I I I mean, I don't think it is that feasible towards the next election. But look, I'm I'm actually as just as interested in today as I am in the the tram lines of the of the next election because it's also about how we're governing in the meantime. It's not just about how we're setting things up for the for the next election. And we do need to take Nigel Farage on today and tomorrow, not just, you know, in 2028, 2029. And we've got to take on his politics. And we've also got to set out much more strongly. And we have done some really solid Labor things that just wouldn't have happened if we hadn't had a Labor government. You know, lifting the two child benefit cap, uh, bringing in the employment rights act, you know, reationalizing railway and so on. These are good labor things, but people don't really know about them as well, and we haven't knitted them together in that much clearer story about the diagnosis of what we think is wrong with the country and how we're going about fixing it. And we have got to do that much more. um strongly as we govern. And I think look, some of the things that maybe Clive Lewis and others have have talked about, some of the the the mistakes that we have made in our time in government so far were things that actually weren't in our manifesto. >> I was going to say lifting the lifting the benefit cap on the amount of children wasn't in there either. It took a rebellion for that to happen. Um look, can we go >> It didn't actually It did take a rebellion and we we've always been clear that that's something we would do when um when finances allow. C can we go back uh Lucy to Andy Burnham? Should he be allowed to stand somewhere else? >> Well, there is nowhere else um right now and um and actually I really don't want there to be another bi-election anytime soon if that's at all possible for any of those MPs around the country thinking about that. Um I if there were because it's not impossible. Well, look, I mean, you know, everyone knows my my view about that because uh everyone knows what decision I took at the at the time uh for for this particular bi-election. >> Well, if people have forgotten, spell it out. >> What was what was it? >> Well, I was the one person that, you know, that voted for him to be to be allowed to stand in in in this this bi-election. But, as I say, I I stand by >> collective collective agreement. And you know what was what something that was I take out of the campaign for this bi-election was that we were able to bring together under one Labor team a very united message, a very united team. Andy Bernham who was out with us all the time. Uh Kier Darma came up and and he was you know involved in um things through throughout. Uh Angela Raina was there. Wes Street was there. The whole cabinet was there. we had one labor team and that is actually when we can punch through the noise more strongly and tell the story about what we're doing here in Manchester but also what we're doing around the country and and and I see it as part of my job as the sort of bridge builder in the Labour party to to make sure that we continue to work with Andy Bernham K working with K star working with everybody else in the Labour party because this is you know the stakes are really really high not just for ourselves but for the country and we've got to get this right we've got to do better and that takes us all putting our shoulder to the wheel and not starting to pit get once against each other. >> And given if, as you say, the stakes are that high, if the prime minister can't do better, as you've said he needs to, ought he to think about doing something else if you're trounced in the May elections? Well, look, I'm not I we've got a leader of the Labor Party and um you know, I I I I'm really clear that we um we the last thing we kind of need to do is start really looking in on ourselves and and and having those kind of debates really because it's it's going to it's very difficult. Running the country is very difficult. Being prime minister is very difficult. And you know, we we've got to get the politics uh right and get the politics more strongly and that's what I'm going to focus on. >> Okay. And it's been a it's a weekend. You've joined us on a Saturday. It's really nice of you. These are these are difficult questions. And the one I wanted to kind of end on is that we newscasters know you care. You went into politics to change people's lives. You are a person of conviction. So whether our listeners like Labor or not, they know that that's who they're listening to. And I just wonder if you can let me in. I went campaigning uh I went watching campaigning canvasing MP today. Can you let me in on how exhausting it's been, what it's been like 18 months or more of Labor government? Government seems to look really difficult. You weren't very sympathetic to the Conservatives when it was their time. Um, but do you feel more sympathetic to the Conservatives now that you've had a go? >> WELL, LOOK, GOVERNMENT, I think, is probably hard in in any times, but I think it's particularly hard uh right now. And I'm not saying that because I want any sort of sympathy for it. That's what we're being paid. that's what we're being paid to to to do and it's something we we we want to do. But I think when you look at what's happening around the world, I mean, even even this this weekend, um, when you the the the kind of world order is is moving and changing so so fast, alliances and uh conflicts and uh escalations and um and trade wars and tariffs and all of that, when you look at what's happening around the world, it's moving really fast. Then you look at what we've inherited domest uh domestically as well after 15 years of the the tries and austerity and then coming out of COVID you know these big shocks that have come along that have left people and our public services much much the poorer and this is the agenda that we have inherited and and yeah it's a lot to kind of turn around and change as quickly as people rightly want to see it happening and um you know politics is moving very fast government is very slow and we've got to get better at matching those two things up >> and it is hard work as you've just explained and we're very grateful to you for giving us your time on a Saturday afternoon. >> People might think you deserve a night out and I think you're getting one going to the Brits in Manchester tonight um with a few other familiar faces including I think Andy Baron. Who are you looking forward to seeing the most? Have you had a look at the set list? >> Well, I have. I mean, look, it's the first time the Brits is is leaving London uh in over 50 years. It's coming here to Manchester. It's a massive coup for us coming to my constituency. So, I have to go. I'm obliged to go, of course. As you know, it's really a tough life. Um, I'm taking my 16-year-old daughter, who thankfully knows all the acts. I I know a few. Um, I'm particularly looking forward to Rey and Harry Styles, which is a bit more kind of Facebook moms, I think, as we're called these days. Um, and my teenage daughter will enjoy all the other acts that I haven't ever heard of. >> Yeah. I mean, his his journey to the mainstream has been fabulous to watch. Harry Stars. He was on the front pages of one of the Sunday magazines last. >> You mean Journey to the Mainstream from a boy band from like Saturday Night Reality TV? What are you talking about? >> Well, Luc is talking about Facebook moms. I don't think Facebook moms were his first the fans at first. >> I'm not sure. Facebook moms with 10-year-old daughters, I think, had quite an >> the >> Yeah, he was pre- Tik Tok though, wasn't he? He was pre that. >> Yeah. Here we are. This is very embarrassing for me. The other thing I The other thing I'll say is that I'm a great thief and I'm going to steal what you said to us in your last answer, which was guess which bit it was. >> Politics is very fast. Government is very slow. >> There you go. >> I'm going to be saying that in my career and it was Lucy Powell who said it first. >> You could trademark it. >> There you go. There was another one. A senior a senior conservative said to me early this morning said, "This is a difficult time for sensible people." That should be the strap line of this pop. >> Quite good as well. >> Lucy Pal, have a love. >> I'll try and not be sensible tonight. Maybe. >> Yeah, don't be sensible tonight. Have a great night at the Brits. And we are really grateful to you for joining us on Saturday's newscast. >> Well, Patty, wasn't that interesting? Especially Lucy Pal's answer, very honest answer I think to your question about whether or not Andy Burnham would have won it for Labor. >> I mean, that's amazing bit of um whatifery. >> It is. and politics and political chat is very often full of whatifery. But the reason she said, which I suspect is probably correct, is the Greens wouldn't have gone after that seat in the same way that they did very aggressively if Andy Burnham had been standing. If, on the other hand, Andy Bernham had stood and held it in another bit of waterfery. This week, the Labour Party might be consumed with whether or not Andy Burnham was going to strike and when he arrived in parliament next week stand up and say he was going to run against Kier Starmer and he should shuffle off this mortal political coil. >> Do you know what the editor has said is he knocked Yeah. He knocked over his hip flask and he said wrap it up. I think that's very rude. Oh, >> it's very rude. >> I was listening to you and I think you should take it up. >> Change. Well, I'll carry on. What are you doing tomorrow? >> You just fade you down. Uh we've got Lord Kinnick on our panel. >> Ah very good. >> Should be exciting. And we we will cover the breaking news from the Middle East. >> Yes. So we will be bringing people the very latest on what's happening in the Middle East. I would say things are incredibly fluid. But I do know we will play tomorrow on the program a conversation I was very lucky to have last week with Tracy Emmen which was just as wonderful as you might have imagined it to be. And I say that not as an a high-end art buff at all, just someone who has heard of her and watched her and followed her as one of this most celebrated creative people alive. And it's an amazing conversation and we filmed it sitting next to the big mucky bed. >> Yes, her bed looks a lot like mine actually, I have to say. >> Well, her bed she said would look very, very different now, which is part of our conversation so it'd be all tidy. Anyway, so we're doing that and then uh you'll have to wait till tomorrow because everything's all very up in the air. >> It is. Okay. So, we say thank you very much indeed for listening to Saturday's newscast. We hope you'll join us tomorrow. >> Goodbye.