Download Subtitles for Michael Phelps Champion Mindset Video

Phelps, of course, is the most decorated

Olympian [music] of all time. If he was

a country, he would have the third most

swimming medals ever.

Where did this obsession of winning come

from?

>> Hating to lose.

I hate to lose more than I enjoy

winning.

How did this come up?

>> One thing my coach took out of my

vocabulary was the word can't, because

it's going to be exponentially harder

since you told yourself you can't. 28

medals. The second youngest male swimmer

to qualify for a US Olympic team. And

what goes on in your head before even

the race has started?

>> When I'm on the block, nothing. I'm like

a dog trying to get out of the cage.

Like I'm just

Did you use any psychological warfare

sort of tactic against your competitors?

I'm taking care of me and I'm focusing

[music] on what I need in that moment. I

don't give a [ __ ] about my competitors

in that moment. When I'm on the pool

deck, it is a full-blown war.

I want to absolutely destroy them.

Was there anyone you secretly feared as

a competitor?

No, I beat everybody.

I don't care who you are. I'm the shark

in the water.

If I smell that smallest ounce of blood,

I'm going to destroy you. Watch me take

it. Tell me about that phase, which is

your 2008 Beijing, where you won eight

gold medals. History in Beijing for

Michael Phelps.

Eight for eight. For those two years, I

felt unbeatable in the pool. I literally

felt like there wasn't a single soul on

the planet that could touch me, that

could beat me.

In an interview which you gave, the

interviewer asked you that you have won

28 Olympic medals in your life, and you

said no, there's 23 that count.

>> I medaled in 28 out of 30 of my races at

the Olympic Games. 23 are only the ones

that we need to talk to. Silver is

losing? You're second, you lost. Third

place, you lost. I don't talk about the

other five. It's going to be gold.

It's going to be

a new world record.

Once I did make that Olympic team, when

I got fifth, I was pissed because I

didn't want a piece of paper that

somebody said congratulations, you came

and competed. I came because I wanted

something around my neck.

I'm there to hear my national anthem

play. That's it.

Tell me the first time you won the gold

medal.

>> I couldn't get caught up in that one

moment, even though it was special. So,

that gold medal is like, all right,

finished, what's next?

Walk me through four, five techniques or

certain things that you would do in that

five, six years of training, where you

were truly preparing to win gold. We'd

start in the morning with a training

session.

Eat plates of food for breakfast, go

home, take a nap, wake up, eat something

else, go back to the pool, go home, eat,

sleep, wake up, and do it all over

again. Every day for six years? Six-year

stretch where I didn't miss a single

day.

A lot of people say why, and I say why

not. There wasn't a single person on

this planet during those 20 years,

pretty much in my career, that was more

prepared than me. That's why I got the

results that I got.

>> [music]

>> Five Olympic Games, 28 medals, 23 of

them gold, 39 world records. If this man

was a country,

he would have been the third highest

country with the medals.

There is no other human being, there is

no other athlete in the world who has

achieved this much in a single sport as

much as this person has achieved. He's a

beast, he's a maniac. He's achieved

numbers that no human has ever touched.

He's achieved numbers that might never

be touched again. And for six years

straight, this man trained every single

day. No Sundays off, no holidays, no

Christmas, nothing. No excuses.

How did he build this beast wild

mindset?

While the world was moving, he was

training like a maniac. He was obsessed

trying to be better, faster just by 1

second, just by half a second. And

today, on figuring out, we're sitting

with this beast, the absolute goat. It's

an honor to do the podcast with Michael

Phelps,

the greatest athlete, the greatest

Olympian, the athlete which has never

existed before and the world has never

seen.

And in this conversation, we're going to

figure out what it actually takes to

absolutely become the champion and to

build a mindset of a beast so that you

kill every time you enter the arena.

This podcast is like

the masterclass

of an athlete mindset. If you want to

win this year,

watch this till the end.

>> [music]

>> You know, actually, before I even I even

start this,

how about

for 0.01%

people who have no clue who you are,

why don't you tell us, Michael, who are

you? I was a swimmer at one point in my

life.

Um

I won a couple gold medals, broke a

couple world records. Um

competed in five Olympic Games.

Um I'm a father of four now. I have four

boys, nine, seven, six, and almost two.

Um

Yeah, and I think a lot of what I try to

do now is

>> [snorts]

>> is really promote

healthy and active lifestyles, whether

that's water safety with

my foundation,

um or it's really trying to open up the

world to the importance of mental

health.

Um you know, I think for me going

through what I went through the tail end

of my career, um really helped me

explore more about who I am.

Um but also, I think with me

showing my vulnerability and opening up

and talking about the struggles that I

go through,

I've been able to hear others or see

others that have become vulnerable

around me and shared what they go

through.

Um and for me,

I think the second part is way bigger

than the first part. Um because the

second part we're dealing with life and

death.

The first part was awesome. But like,

don't get me wrong, it was incredible

hearing my my national anthem play and

you know, winning a bunch of gold

medals, but you know, the fact that life

and death is also in play with so many

people, I think I

I just heard a stat.

My wife just sent it to me yesterday. It

was

This is kind [snorts] of crazy to me.

Suicide's the second leading cause of

death

for people 10 to 34.

So, for me, that's why I say the second

part is so much

it's so much bigger.

Um

you know, just being again, being able

to save a life

uh is a thousand times better than

winning an Olympic gold medal. Um and

for me, just being able to have the

platform that I had, that I have,

um to give me

the chance to to speak what I'm

passionate about is is really special.

Let's try to understand both the phases

of your life. Part one, part two.

But before we go there, I want to

understand something about you when you

were a child, like from the beginning.

Tell me, what do I need to understand

about you when you were 10 years old?

You [snorts] were unable to sit in a

class. You saw your parents' uh

relationship falling off.

You were restless

and not able to just cope up with

everything which normal kids do. Yeah.

What do I need to understand about that

Michael? Um I mean, I I I I I I I I I

and everything that came after. Yeah, I

mean, [snorts] I think for me, uh

you know, going back even before 10, you

know, when I was 7 years old, I was

you know, nonstop kind of bouncing off

the wall. You know, I was always around

the pool. My my two older sisters swam,

so I was around the pool all the time,

so water safety was

uh something that was a big priority for

my mother and and you know, once I was

in the water and I was safe there,

you know, I was just kind of playing

around the pool all the time. So, that's

when I got into the water, and then the

water was kind of

a release for me. Um you know, being

able to

kind of swim as hard as you want to go

faster with, you know, anger, if you

might have it, was something that I

enjoyed.

Um yeah, it wasn't great dealing with

anger as a 7, 8, 9, 10-year-old kid. Um

but for me, it was an outlet. Uh and it

was something that that, you know, I

ended up falling in love with, and uh

yeah, I mean, I I remember in

uh middle school,

>> [clears throat]

>> I was told uh by my teachers that I

would never by excuse me, by a teacher,

uh that I would never amount to

anything.

Um and and I still remember her name and

and

uh I still remember what she looks like.

I still remember where I was sitting in

the class. Um and and I think at that

point for me, I used it as motivation.

Um you know, the the fact that a

teacher, number one, would say they're

doubting a student and not knowing how

to deal with them, I think is

saddening, it's upsetting.

Um but for me, I was like, watch this,

I'm going to prove you.

Uh and I think at the time, that was

pretty much when I

had stopped taking um

Ritalin, which was for my ADHD.

Uh,

so my ADHD I literally was like I was

all over the place. I was leaning back

in the chair on the back legs, leaving

dents on the in on the floor in the

classroom, always getting sent to the

principal's office, and honestly I just

had a really hard time sitting still.

Um,

and at that point my mom was, you know,

I was playing baseball, I was playing

lacrosse, I was playing soccer, and I

was swimming. I was playing all these

different sports just to try to get the

energy out of me. My mom was just like I

don't know what to do with him. Um, and

it's crazy fast forward now to where I'm

40 and I have four kids. It's the same

way.

>> [laughter]

>> Their kids are non-stop. Um,

but I think, you know, going back to

that point I I think swimming really

gave me

something to focus on. Um, yeah, I was

that

well, I still am that kind of ADD, kind

of all over the place, jittery, like

kind of always moving around. Like

that's just who I am. That's my

personality. So, you know, I think over

time I naturally took something that

somebody labeled me with having or being

a less than of a kid, I took that into

into almost really making it a

superpower. Um, because it gave me the

ability to focus on things that I was

really passionate about. Um,

See, your teacher said she must have

noticed and the rest of the world just

noticed how you were as a kid who

restless not able to sit anywhere.

What do you think

that teacher didn't get or the world

didn't get about that kid who was not

able to sit properly? Because uh, you

definitely had something in you and you

>> I just thought she didn't know how to,

whether it's a lack of better way of

saying it, like I don't I don't think

she wanted to deal with me or knew how

to deal with me or knew how to handle me

or knew or knew how to taught me, teach

me, right? Like she didn't she just

didn't know.

Um, and you know, like for me

like my mother has been in education for

50 years.

You know, like that's her passion. Her

passion is being in the classroom to try

to make an impact for a student. To try

to help them take whatever they're

learning in that year, that classroom,

and catapult it to help them into the

rest of their life, to help transform

them into what they want to be. And all

of those steps need to happen, but when

a teacher, you know, instantly shuts

down on a kid,

it just doesn't look good for the

teacher.

Um, but I mean,

>> [clears throat]

>> I think I got like a C in her class, so

like let's be honest. Yeah.

I was kind of like just get me out of

here. You know, like that was my least

least favorite class that I went to

every single day and I sat there.

>> class was it? English.

I hated English. You [snorts] know, and

and maybe it was how she was teaching it

to me. Because I had teachers that were

great. You know, like I had teachers

throughout my my

uh, elementary, middle, and high school

where they were awesome and they helped

me understand when I had problems

learning what everybody else was

learning faster than what I was

learning.

Or if I was learning things faster than

everybody else, then she gave me he or

she gave me stuff

to help me stay focused, right? Like

that I I I think it's just

uh, everybody has a different mind and

everybody is able to handle or control

as much as they can. Um, and she just

didn't know what to do. Uh, it was sad

and I'm sure there still are teachers

out there in the world that are like

that and

it is it is unfortunate and it is sad.

Um, but to the kids out there who do

have an experience like that, know that

there are other outcomes that can happen

in life. Um,

I mean, people doubted me in the

swimming pool, too. And honestly, like

for me again, it was just it was a form

of motivation. That was it. You know,

like if somebody wants to doubt me, like

I've been on this kick lately where I've

just been firing off quotes on

Instagram. Just like on my story, just

ripping quotes off that just like fit me

in the morning. And I'm like I'm I'm I'm

a big quotes person and and you know,

like throughout my career my coach would

always put quotes on the top of the

workout. Um, motivating quotes or just

quotes that people need to hear that for

me that I need to hear. Um, you know,

for for whatever you're going through

life, so yeah, I can

>> Which one's your favorite quote now?

I mean, my my favorite quote is actions

speak louder than words. You know, like

that's that's one of my all-time

favorite hands-down quotes because it

it's true. You know, like you can say

whatever you want, but if your actions

don't back up those words, then all it

is is just a bold-faced lie, you know?

So, you know, for me like throughout my

career like I I wanted to,

you know, break this world record, win

this gold medal, whatever it was, and I

knew that there had to be a process on

how to get there, right? Like I can't

just say it and snap my fingers. There

had to be, you know, every single day

little baby things that were stacked on

top of each other and little baby steps

that were heading towards that goal. And

if I was taking steps backwards, then

I'm just cheating myself.

What what do you think

you said water became your escape and

you were just always in the pool taking

out your anger

and everything. Like it it became your

coping mechanism in some sort and you

were always in the pool, right?

>> Mhm. What do you think what did water

give you

emotionally which nothing else could?

Um, I [clears throat] mean, my kids call

me Aquaman now, so I guess

>> [laughter]

>> it's kind of the same

Um, you know, I I don't know. I think

thinking back to it and, you know, kind

of being able to dive through my career

a little bit inside the pool.

Um,

I was super sensitive to every little

part of the water in my body, right? So,

like when I would swim, I'm feeling the

water in the palm of my hands.

Like that's where I'm feeling all the

pressure. So, if my shoulder my my arm

or my body is not a certain way, then

I'm not able to feel that. So, it's all

trial and error and trying to get in the

right position.

Um, and naturally I think, you know, for

me just being submerged in water, I just

felt at home.

Um, I don't know, for lack of better

terms. Like, you know, even that even

like now,

if I go into a big depression state or

I'm just in a grouchy mood for a couple

of days and workout hasn't helped and,

you know, my normal routine hasn't

helped, whether it's the cold tub or the

sauna, you know, I'll I'll just get, you

know, my wife will just kick me out of

the house and say go go jump in the

swimming pool.

Um, because it's it's kind of like the

only place where

I I don't have anybody talking to me.

I don't have to think about stroke. I

don't have to think about what I'm

having for dinner or what I'm making for

dinner or what I'm doing tomorrow or

this or that.

I'm just there in the moment.

Right? Like I can just be. And I can

swim for 500, which is, I mean,

minimal compared to what I used to swim.

>> [laughter]

>> Um, or I could swim 2,000. It doesn't

matter. Like

just being able to be back in the water,

being back into that environment I think

is kind of one of my reset switches.

Um, that kind of just levels me out.

Do you think you were running away from

something? Or you were you were swimming

away from something or swimming towards

something? I think I found swimming,

yeah, as an outlet, but I think, you

know, the reason why I found swimming is

my two older sisters swam as well. So,

you know, for me kind of seeing what

they were doing and my middle sister

Whitney was traveling all over the world

and she was on world championship teams.

I was like, "Wow, that seems pretty

cool." Like she was trying to go to the

Olympic Games and I was like, "Yeah, I

want to go to the Olympic Games." Like,

"Hell yeah, like who doesn't want to go

to the Olympic Games?" Um, and I I just

kind of followed and and, you know,

naturally as a kid if you learn that you

get good or you start getting faster,

you kind of think how fast can I get?

And that's kind of what I did. You know,

like from the start until the end of my

career I was

kind of like, "All right, how how much

faster can I get? Can I drop a second?

Can I drop a half a second? Can I drop

two tenths? Like what is the maximum

potential that I have inside of me and

how can I challenge myself in different

ways?"

Um, swimming for me like again, like

I would scream underwater. You can't

hear me. Like

I would call my coach every single

[ __ ] name on the planet. Like sorry

for profanity, but like like I literally

would. Like because there were times

where I was so frustrated and so angry

and there was nothing else I could do,

whether it was like I my body was in

pain, I I mentally couldn't do it or I

felt like I couldn't do it. Um, I would

just scream and then naturally I would

still get through it and it would go

well and blah blah blah blah blah, but

it's like in that moment like for me

screaming was one of those things that

would just let everything out. Um, and

it's something that like, you know,

we've taught our kids. Um, again, we

have four boys and and the emotions get

high.

So, you know, we taught them this thing

called a lion breath where you take a

deep breath and you roar like a lion.

And you scream as loud as you can. And

again, with I mean, the younger one

doesn't scream that much, but like the

three older ones it's a lot of noise,

but it's again, like we find once

they're able to do that, their shoulders

drop a little bit and they're able to

have that conversation of what big

feelings emotions they're going through

inside instead of carrying them along

through life. Can you show me what what

is it? Like what's the lion breath? Uh,

you don't want me to scream in here.

It's okay. You can just show it like a

little bit

>> it's just like

>> one version of it.

>> [sighs]

>> Ah, and you obviously you can scream as

loud as you want, but it's it's

literally just take a deep big, big, big

deep breath in and just scream as loud

as you possibly can. And naturally like

naturally when when you do that, your

shoulders do drop a little bit, right?

You are able to kind of

come back to earth, right? Be your

normal self. Like I always joke, there

was uh

the candy, the Snickers bars commercial.

Um it's always they they they always

show them here, but it's it's uh it's a

commercial where it's like you take a

bite of a Snickers and you just feel

like you're normal self. Like I feel

like that's what that's what it is. Like

what Snickers is saying like when you

have a sugar low, you eat some sugar and

naturally you feel better. But here it's

like if you're stressed or you're

frustrated and you take that deep

breath, you're able to be like

huh, okay. So, why am I going through

that? What feelings and emotions am I

going through? And you're able just to

get it all out. Like for me it's, you

know, there are a bunch of different

things that I do.

Um I don't do lion's breath that often,

but

uh when I'm in the pool it's very easy

to do it.

Um

but yeah, I mean there there's a

checklist that I have for my own mental

health. So, you would So, you used to

scream inside the pool a lot. Or like

underwater like

>> Underwater, right?

>> Like when I was going and taking like

when I was doing my streamlines off the

wall and I was kicking underwater, I

would

there were a lot of F bombs that were

said. Yeah, that was one of my favorite

words to scream underwater. And people

could hear it. Honestly like when you're

in a set, like person next to me would

be like, "Did you just scream?" And

you're like, "Mhm, [clears throat] I

did. I did." And they're like, "All

right, we have one more." And you're

like, "Yep, we got one more repeat.

Let's go."

Um but it it's just

it's kind of like in the moment like it

it

I feel like I needed

I needed to do that just to get through.

Um and everybody I think probably has

something different, right? But that

that was just me. It was screaming

underwater. It's same thing like when

I'm in the weight room now like I I was

just traveling overseas and and I was

lifting in I think it was Mumbai.

And I was in the weight room and I was

like grunting.

And then like everybody in the gym like

looked at me and I was like, "Shit." And

I'm looking into a mirror and

everybody's face is staring right at

you.

Um but it's just kind of something that

I do. Um I mean I used to do it right

when I get up onto the block. You know,

right after I did my arm slap, it was

something that I would always do, just

clear my throat.

So, is it you were screaming a lot

because you were obsessed with trying to

win? Or was it A lot of different

things. It was probably yeah, I wanted

to win. I wanted to push through

whatever I was going through or I was

emotionally just ready to snap and

screaming was something that would help

me.

Where did this obsession of winning come

from? Was it

Hating to lose.

But

>> I hate to lose more than I enjoy

winning.

>> Even when you were like 9, 10, 11?

How did this come up?

I don't know.

It was just something I always had. Like

I always felt from from when I was a

little kid like

there was there was there was no second

place.

That wasn't an option.

It's just something that I always I mean

like

I remember winning home run derby at 10

or 11 years old. Like I was the biggest

kid playing lacrosse, playing long stick

middie,

um just slashing people with the stick.

Um

yeah, I mean

winning winning was everything. Yeah. Do

you think it has anything to do with

not getting your father's approval when

you were a kid?

Um the absence of

I don't think so.

Uh because

I I mean I I would say a lot of it

probably came from him

um because he was he was kind of more of

the athlete from my parents'

relationship. He was

a baseball player, a football player,

track and field stud.

Um

he I think he was the first person to

get cut from uh the Washington Redskins

back in the day

uh when they were the Redskins. So,

um winning or trying to be the best is

something that that in sports was

something that he was he was very good

at. Like competition in sports that that

was something that he excelled in. Um I

would say my sister Whitney and I are

uberly competitive, more competitive

than my older sister Hillary. Um

especially in sports.

Um there's there's just Yeah, I mean for

us again there was just there was no

second place.

Um

you know, for me it it it ended up

becoming preparation, right? Like

preparation is everything. If you're not

prepared, then

you're going to get second or you're

going to get third or you're going to

get last, right? Because there's always

somebody that is overly prepared or more

prepared than you are, no matter what.

So, for me I just became that person.

There wasn't a planet. There there there

there wasn't there wasn't a single

person on this planet

during those 20 years pretty much of my

career. You know, I had a couple losses

that I can name for through my Olympic

career.

But there wasn't another person on this

planet that was more prepared than me.

Not, period.

There wasn't. That's why I got the

results that I got. It's not rocket

science. It's not.

I put in the work, I got the results.

That's it.

Let's let's go to your preparation time

and like when you first started with

your coach.

>> Yeah. And

first when your coach spotted you

in the same year he went to your mother

and said that you're going to win an

Olympics or you're going to be in the

Olympics, right? What was that story?

Tell me about it. My coach came to North

Baltimore Aquatic Club where I was

swimming where my sister swam. Long

tradition of uh of excellence with that

club in Baltimore.

You know, from

1984

until 2016

there was

at least one person on every single

Olympic team.

Wow.

So, my coach came in '96 [snorts]

or right before '96, maybe '95. Okay.

Um

and he was helping my sister's group a

little bit.

Uh my middle sister's group a little bit

prepare for uh Olympic trials and the

Olympic Games in '96. And

then the group kind of split and he took

over a different group. I think I'm

thinking I'm explaining this right away.

Um

and then I remember seeing him while I

was that kid playing at the pool.

You know, I was only swimming like three

days a week. Like I really wasn't

training that much back then.

And I would always play, play, play and

I would see him go up and down the pool,

walk, run, arms up in the air,

screaming, whistling. And I was like

like I remember being like, you know,

like

if it was me back then what I was

thinking, I would be like there's no

[ __ ] chance I'm swimming for that

man. Like he is an absolute lunatic.

Fast forward a year,

I spent 20 years 20 plus years of my

life with that man and he is my only

coach. Um but it it it's kind of crazy

because, you know, seeing it you know, I

think at that age I was like, "Man, like

truly like this guy's nuts."

Um

but what I learned it was just the

passion that he has. And that he that

that he had back then that he still has

today. Um But did he come to you or you

went to him? So,

uh I was I was excelling in the group

that I was in and and I needed to be in

a higher group. And and I was 11 years

old at this time and the kids that were

in that group were like

14, 15, 18 years old. Like way older,

way more mature. Um but I was faster

than them.

So, I I ended up swimming in that group

and and I got to that group and and but

before I got there my coach sat down

with my parents one night and he's like,

"Well, look like if if, you know, your

son wants to make the Olympic team in

four years, he can make the Olympic

team."

As an 11-year I I was 11 years old.

He said that to you? He said that to me.

And he's like, "But look, he's like you

got to stop playing baseball, lacrosse,

and soccer."

But for me like looking back now like

those playing those four different

sports

I think naturally gave me a better body

awareness. Like the more I talk to the

professional athletes from all sports,

all walks of life now,

that's the same thing they did.

Playing multiple sports. Don't be super

hyper focused on one sport. But at a

certain time there's then going to be a

decision that you have to make.

It it's it's just naturally I feel like

that's how it is in sports. If you

really want to be the best at one sport,

there's a

you have to make a decision at some

point. Um just because of the process of

development, this, that, and the other.

Um but back then, yeah, he he sat down

and said that and I was like, "All

right, kind of like fine. Like I'll stop

playing these other sports. I'll focus

on swimming. No problem." And I just

remember back then I I I was I was the

Energizer Bunny. Like he basically would

wind me up and I would just go. Or he

would say jump and I would say how high.

Um

because he gave me that vision of

wanting to go to the Olympic Games.

To then

make the dream of winning an Olympic

gold medal

even bigger. Because you know, I just

thought about going.

And then I'm like, "Maybe I could win,

right? Like that would be pretty cool."

When you were 11 and he said that to you

for the first time that

you could go to Olympics in next four

years. Did you believe it? Or did you

act act like someone who believed it

until it actually became true? Uh I

believed it because he showed confidence

in me.

As an 11-year old

>> Something that he saw of me in the pool

gave him confidence that he could do

that.

He had already trained and worked with

previous Olympic coaches, Olympic

athletes,

and he saw something.

Um

and honestly, I think back to the

question you asked earlier, like you

know, he then became a father figure in

my life, right? Because

I I mean, I literally spent

spent 25 years traveling the world with

him,

right? So, I mean, like basically my

whole entire life was

hand in hand with him. Everything we did

swimming related was together. Um

and and you know, I think once I did

make that Olympic team,

that really really made me trust him.

Because I was like like like for me

because I know you said don't skip, but

like when I made that Olympic team and I

got fifth,

I was pissed, but I was hungry.

Right? Because I didn't want a piece of

paper that somebody said,

"Congratulations, you came and

competed." That's not why I came.

I came because I wanted something around

my neck. That's it.

So, I remember that day after my Olympic

final in Sydney,

the workout paper he wrote down, it said

WR on the top of it. And for people who

don't know, that means world record.

And I was like, "What's this?"

He goes, "You're going to break a world

record in 6 months."

And I was like,

"Okay.

Sure. Let's see what happens."

Sure enough, 6 months later, I break a

world record. So, like again, like

that's where the whole trust really

really opened up. Um but but you know, I

think through you know, from the time I

got with him to the time I was 15,

he basically just broke my strokes

completely apart.

Um like he started from scratch.

Uh you know, I I had some good things

going on with my body and how I swam and

the reach, obviously I have super long

arms, long wingspan, short legs, really

strong legs, um short but wide. My my

[clears throat] my quads are huge. Um

so for me like it when I got to him at

11 years old, I still remember back in

the day, so the people who don't

understand swimming, a six-beat kick

is

three kicks per one stroke. So, it's

one, two, three with your legs per one

stroke.

So, he was teaching me the importance of

a six-beat kick. It wasn't 11, I forget

what age it was, but um

he said, "Every time you drop your legs

in a practice and you don't do a

six-beat kick, I'm going to kick you

out."

And the first day I got through like

500 of a 6,000-yard workout.

Kicked me out. Next day, 2,000, kicked

me out. Next day, 2,500, kicked me out.

Next day, 3,000, kicked me out. Next

day, 4,000, kicked me out. By the end of

the week, I got to a full workout.

And from that day forward,

I never dropped my feet for a single

stroke of freestyle

for the rest of my career.

Did I agree with what he was doing? No,

it sucked getting kicked out. It was

absolutely miserable sitting there

watching my friends train and and and be

in a practice, but I learned the

importance of the small technical points

that you have to have

in order to be able to go wherever you

want to go, right? Like it's almost like

a college level class. You can't take

the thousand level class without taking

the one through nine, right? Like so,

there's a process through it all and he

taught me that process throughout my

career and we were able just to sharpen

up those tools, right? Like that's

really all it became.

Um because

you know, throughout my career, we ended

up ended up just trying to shave off

hundredths of a second. How do you shave

off 5/100 of a second? Mhm. Is it a

turn? Is it a kick? Is it a streamline?

What is it? Is it dive angle? Like what

what how do we do it, right? So, it's

trial and error. But it all started from

those years

um when we first started working

together. I mean, whether it was

mindset, whether it was goal setting,

whether it was preparation, routines,

um

you know, that's where stretching came

into play. All that stuff to to just get

your body prepared. Um my warm-ups were

the same at every single meet from the

time that I was

13 or 14 till the time I retired. It

didn't change.

8642 or 6442, every single warm-up. Who

was more ambitious, you or your coach?

Uh

you could probably say both of us at

different stages of my career.

>> [snorts]

>> Cuz I think leading up to 2008,

I don't think there was anybody more

ambitious than me.

Post like '04 or '08 to 2012, he was way

more ambitious. He wanted and I just

wanted nothing to do with the sport.

Um and then when I came back, I think we

both wanted it.

When I came back to finish in '16,

um

we were both equally as hungry and

wanting to do

or wanting to finish, I guess, what we

had started the right way.

Um because I mean, I I've said this and

I'll say it a thousand times more, like

there's not a coach on this planet that

could have

helped me,

coached me to be able to do what I was

able to do. Not a single person. I was

an [ __ ] I was a little [ __ ] dude

to coach, I know it. And he'd say it,

too. Um and I'd say the same about him.

But you know, I think again, like it's

the passion that we had and and we

learned a lot about each other through

the process, right? It was you know, he

had to adapt, I had to adapt cuz I

wasn't that 11-year-old kid that he

wanted to start working with when I was

30, Mhm. right? So, just that change

that we had to go through was was um was

important for us to have the the

relationship that we had for as long as

we had.

You your coach also said people around

you or everybody to not to say the word

Olympic. What was when was that? What

was that story?

I mean, my mom when I made the Olympic

team in 2000,

she like fully decorated the front yard

with like all these American flags and

like this, that, and the other. And my

mom was or my coach is

Bob goes, "This is the last time you're

ever going to do this.

Never again." Um

>> What? And and I think because it's like

I mean, I think looking back at it now,

I would say

because the goal wasn't just to make the

Olympic team. That wasn't the goal.

The goal is to win an Olympic gold

medal.

Not just be a part of the Olympic Games,

but win the Olympic Games. Be a champion

at the Olympic Games.

So, I think once you get caught up in

just making the Olympic team, then

sometimes you might slip and not pay

attention to the small details that are

going to help you be your best self at

the Olympic Games.

Right? Like I I mean, I see it in

I see it with athletes that have been on

Olympic teams with me,

right? Like they had this dream of

making an Olympic team. It's making and

that's it. Just getting there. It's not

actually

doing my best time at the Olympic Games

and potentially coming home with

hardware. That was my goal from day one

when I had my first Olympic race.

Get a gold. Yes, but it's

how do I get faster than my trials swim,

right? For me, I wanted to drop So, in

the US, we have Olympic trials and top

two people in each individual event get

to go. There's

over 2,000 swimmers that at that Olympic

trials. And a maximum of 52 people will

be on an Olympic team.

52 out of 2,000 plus.

And those 2,000 will also come from like

all over the place. Yeah, so like but

like you know, I think it it just like

got I just lost a train of thought. What

was I talking about?

You were talking about

your Olympic

>> Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, now I got it. That

you always wanted just win the medal.

So, yeah, but like for me, like when I

made my first Olympic team in 2000, it

was about

dropping a second from Olympic trials to

the Olympic Games. Drop one second. If I

can do that, then I'm in

I'm in the realm of winning an Olympic

medal, right? So,

I dropped 98/100 of a second and I

missed a medal by less than 3/10.

And I had to wait another 4 years to

have another chance.

How did you feel like you were 15 when

you entered Olympics? You were the

youngest in the world to do that.

Youngest since 1932. And then

you

you end up coming fifth, sixth?

Fifth.

How did you feel?

First time, 15-year-old, youngest

person, fifth. Fifth.

Upset. [clears throat]

They gave me a piece of paper like you

have in front of you that says, "Good

job, you competed. You got fifth."

I don't want to get fifth. I'm not there

to get fifth.

I'm not.

I'm there to hear my national anthem

play. That's it. I mean, obviously, that

was a stretch for me at that time,

but I think having that opportunity of

getting fifth and representing my

country and

being at the biggest stage at such a

young age, I think just only prepared me

naturally for what was going to come.

But you messed up in your first Olympic

Games, right? I think you you forgot

your paper. Oh, yeah, I forgot my

credential. Well, I didn't forget my

credential, I took my roommate's

credential.

Um

I was roommates with another one of the

younger guys on the team and and uh

I we had our credentials just on like

the handle of a door

>> Mhm. and I just ended up grabbing his

instead of mine. We look nothing alike.

So,

uh, I ended up going to the pool and

they wouldn't let me in the pool. I

didn't have my credential.

I tried to go back to the village and I

couldn't get on the bus or get back in

the village because I didn't have a

photo of me on my credential.

>> [sighs and gasps]

>> So, that kind of delayed my warm-up and

my process of getting ready. Um, the

slightest bit and I mean I don't think

that threw me off. I mean because still

I didn't even tie my suit before the

race. My my strings of my suit were just

tucked into my like the top of my suit

which is I mean they're not going to

fall off. The suits are so tight and so

small. They are not going to fall off.

No shot. But I mean I just wasn't

prepared, you know, I think.

The biggest thing I learned from that

moment is is just understanding what

needs to take place

at the most pressured moment.

Right? You know, like for me, yeah, I've

gone to the Olympic trials, but I never

experienced what an Olympic Games was,

what a

swim meet on different soil feels like.

And especially in Australia where

swimming is the number one sport, right?

I mean the floor was shaking. I remember

it vividly. The floor was shaking

because there was an Australian in my

heat next to me who ended up getting

third. I mean like literally like the it

was it was vibrating. There was 18,000

people on one side

and then all the media and the

dignitaries are on the left.

And yeah, I mean like everything just

threw me off. Like looking back

>> was going on in your mind? I was a deer

in headlights. Just scared. Not really

knowing what the hell to do. But I knew

that I had to just get up on the block

and race.

Um, and that was something that, you

know, still to this day like I miss.

Like I I loved I loved competing. I

loved racing more than anything on the

planet. A chance for me to get up versus

the rest of the world or versus the

like my teammates, my competitors in the

US and have a chance to show who is the

best. Yes, every single time. Because

naturally like I'll always go to that

that next level

because I I

I don't like to lose. So, yeah, getting

fifth it was terrible. It sucked. But

again, like I truly believe

had I got a medal

2004 might have been different.

Right? You know, like

me falling short of a goal there

probably gave me more motivation to rip

into that next four years to make sure I

don't have that feeling again.

I don't have that sadness or that

disappointment again.

Yeah, it took me a lot to just to make

the Olympic team, but still like getting

there again, you got to wait four years.

I don't want to wait another four years.

So again, like I want everything to be

perfect when I have that chance. And I

think having 2000 I think gave me the

chance to do my trial run in 2004

to prepare for what was to come in 2008.

So when you

>> [clears throat]

>> when you came fifth with a paper, you

came home and now you're like I don't

even know where that paper is. What

whatever that thing was, right? Honestly

like it's just like like a

participation. Like it's just like here

and I'm like

I don't want it.

>> And then you came home and you're

thinking like 2004 is going to be my

year. I'm going to come back home with

gold medal.

If I could place a camera in your head,

what was going on in your head? Like

first day when you just came back from

Well, I knew

you know, like back to that story of

getting back into training the day

after, you know, that's something that

that naturally athletes don't do coming

off an Olympic Games, right? Like you

you kind of

take that four weeks like two to four

four to six weeks four to eight weeks

kind of just to recover to get back into

that cycle

um, to prepare for an Olympic Games, but

for me it was

right back into it because

it

in the sport of swimming when you miss

one day, it takes you two days to get

back to where you were.

So if you miss two months,

it's going to take you four months to

get back to where you were.

So for me from 2000 into 2001,

I didn't miss a step.

Right? I was right back into training. I

mean I went back into training. I mean I

would say I probably did a 5K over 5K. I

think I did like eight 200s or 10 200s

backstroke long course in lane one in

the Sydney warm-up pool the day after

the 200 fly in 2000.

And on the top of the paper it said WR

in six months at Nationals.

And I went to Nationals six months later

which are World Championship trials

um, for that following summer in Japan.

And the last 50

I came back on the existing world record

holder at the time Tom Malchow

and I ran him down with 10 15 m to go.

Um, and I broke the world record

1:54.92.

Um

and that kind of catapulted me into that

next summer. I won my first World

Championship at 16 and rebroke the world

record. Um, and then from that point

forward rebroke it in 2002, rebroke it

in 2003, rebroke it in 2004 when I won

the gold medal.

Um, it was just Did I?

No, I didn't break it. I didn't break it

in 2000. Not not winning the gold medal,

but I did break it in that year in that

calendar year. I just won on a tear.

Um, and I think kind of once I got that

taste of success, like I was saying

earlier, that was, you know, for me it

was what else can I do?

How much faster can I go? And I think

that's when we started expanding and

swimming different events. Right? Like I

was swimming the 200 IM. I started

swimming the 400 IM, the 100 fly, the

200 free, the 200 back.

Um

in 2008 I was the American record holder

in the 100 freestyle.

Um, I I just became super versatile and

that was something that we started back

early when I was working with Bob.

Um, cuz we had a goal back then of

trying to be

top 10 in the world in every single

stroke.

Butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke, and

freestyle.

You

But you took four days off from 2000 to

2004.

Pretty much yeah, because I had a wisdom

wisdom teeth.

>> [snorts]

>> And I think maybe like

I wouldn't even say I got sick. Like I I

mean even if I was sick, I was still in

the water. I was still training. Um But

you were so obsessed with training and

you believe that even one day off is

going to take you two days back. Why do

you even take four days off then? Well,

I had to. Uh, I mean I had to later in

my career for certain surgeries. I had

hand surgeries throughout my career.

Um,

but I think at that point it was if I'm

not taking the opportunity that I have,

then somebody else is going to take that

opportunity away from me.

And I want the opportunity to be mine.

So for me it was, you know, I think it

it was all about control. What can you

control? I can control not getting sick

by taking care of my body.

Right? So I think naturally over time I

learned how to take care of my body. But

did you feel guilty on the days when you

were off?

Do you feel bad like [ __ ] like

>> It sucks. Yeah, like I mean

it sucked because I was missing an

opportunity and a chance, but once

you're going through surgery, if you

have surgery, then it's kind of like

you need to give your body some kind of

recovery.

Um

I don't think it really hurt taking

those days off.

Um

because I think then after that I it was

like

I went on a six-year stretch where I

didn't miss a single day.

Um

and a lot of people say why and I say

why not. Right? There's no blueprint on

how to win eight gold medals. There's no

blueprint on how to break 39 world

records. There's no blueprint on how to

win 23 Olympic gold medals.

Um, the only thing you can do is trial

and error. Mhm.

>> Um,

for me, yeah, I mean I I would say I

became obsessed.

But I think it's that fine line between

obsession and passionate that I always

flirted with.

Um, and I I was over I was overly

passionate about trying to be the

absolute best. You know, for me

at such a young age I I I had a goal of

of doing something that no one has ever

done in the sport and also changing the

sport and taking it to a new level. So

there wasn't going to be anybody that

was going to stand in my way of doing

that. You know, I I looked up to Michael

Jordan and what he did, you know, on the

court of uh on the basketball court and

and, you know, no matter what he was

going through physically, mentally,

personally. Um, you know, when he was

out there performing, he left every

single ounce on the basketball court.

You know, he had the flu in the flu

game, still dropped what? 50, 40, 45?

Like Yeah, right. Like there was just no

excuses, right? So

um, for me every single day is an

opportunity to get better.

No matter how yesterday went. If you had

a bad day yesterday, today is a

different day. Period. That's it.

You can't live in the past and you can't

live in the future. The only thing you

can do is live in the present.

Walk me through four five

techniques or certain thing that you

would do in that five six years of

training where you were truly preparing

to win gold.

You know, I'll tell before you actually

go there, I'll tell you

one of the most watched Michael Phelps

video

is a clip by me which is funny on the

internet

>> [laughter]

>> because I was researching for this this

podcast and I I typed on YouTube the

most watched Michael Phelps clip and in

that clip I'm explaining

where in one interview he said

that there was there was a faith in your

life probably 6 7 years

where

somebody's asking you that what was the

what's the reason of your success? Why

do you win? And you say just train every

day. Yeah. And they say that's it.

>> the small things. Yeah, I mean

>> And then you said no, train every day.

>> Yeah.

No Christmas. Yeah, I try not to be.

>> party, nothing, no flu, just train every

day. And that that clip is doing really

well for some reason. But explain me

what happened in those 6 years.

I mean it's it's it basically really is

what can you control? What is in your

control every single day? And it's like

you're eating, you're sleeping, you're

drinking water, you're stretching if

you're sore, you're lifting if you're

trying to get stronger, you're working

on your endurance and staying in your

endurance level, working on heart rate

if that's what you're trying to improve.

There's so many different little small

things that you can do it depending on

what your goals are.

>> [gasps]

>> So for me it's it's how can I be

prepared every single day, right? So

like if I go back to that point, you

know, after the 2000 Olympic Games, like

it wasn't you know, it was probably 2002

2003 where

I started doing ice tubs.

Right? So it's recovery.

How can I how can I recover my body and

my mind every single day to make sure

that my body, if I'm treating it like a

Ferrari and I want it to go that fast

every single day

I have to recover. I have to treat my

body with with love, right? So if I'm

not eating, if I'm not stretching, if

I'm not drinking water, if I'm not

sleeping, if I'm not staying off my

feet, if I'm not all of these small

things, then I don't have a chance to be

my best during those two to four hours

when I'm in the pool every single day.

So it it became literally a full-time

job the age of 15 16 because I mean I

was professional at 15 or 16 years old.

So I treated it like a job. Um

everything I did was eat, sleep, and

swim. Sure, I was in school

um

until I I was in school through high

school and then

I took

6 months of credits at Michigan and

decided that I needed to focus on

swimming and that's what I did. Um but

yeah, I mean like it it was

>> your coach like created

>> like we'd start in the morning with a

training session

and then I would go and eat a bunch of

plates of food for breakfast just to

recover from the you know

7500 yard workout we just did.

Um go home, take a nap, wake up

eat something else

go back to the pool

train for 2 hours

go home

eat, sleep, wake up and do it all over

again. It literally like it became a job

at such a young age.

Every day for 6 years.

>> Every day.

Yeah. So

But your coach also created adversities

during the training. What was what was

it like? Why would you train like

like put

do it in the dark, do it without water,

do it

>> mean like there were so many different

things he tried to do just to or just to

mentally prepare us I think for things

that we were going to go through or

could potentially go through. Tell me

worst three.

>> Um I mean like he would break my goggles

or step on my goggles on purpose to

teach me to make sure I had a backup

pair.

And naturally in 2008 my goggles fill up

with water as soon as I dive in and

I had to revert back to a training a

training habit that I did

to help me count strokes to get through

that race. And naturally

I hit the wall at the right time, but I

was able to win and I was able to break

the world record, too. So

you know, I think the things that he did

like breaking my goggles or

um you know, like I I've had my suit rip

right? And and you know, during that

time if you're getting ready for an

Olympic final or a world championship

final and your suit rips

your emotions are going to change,

right? So I was able to then because of

what I went through, whether it's from

the breaking the goggles or or you know

going 10 workouts a week where I'm going

10,000 meters every single session and

going 100k bang bang bang just every

week. Um I think it it just gets you

relaxed in those super high-pressured

tense moments when all of these lights

are on and there's millions of people

staring at you. Oh, and by the way,

we're swimmers, so we're half naked. You

know, so it's like

>> [snorts]

>> um but but I think that's what it was.

Like he was just uh he was obsessed with

with being over-prepared. Um

you know

yeah, it's probably

a little psychotic in ways, but

um you know, looking back at it I

understand why he did what he did, why

he challenged me mentally

um

when things were uncomfortable, right?

Like you know, I remember having to swim

without goggles. It sucks.

Your eyes hurt, right? Like they burn

after swimming for 2 hours without

goggles. Try to swim a race without

goggles. No, it's not fun. Um

but after doing that like I I learned.

And naturally like my cap rips at the

Olympic final as I'm getting ready to

get up on the block for the 4 by 200

free relay.

I have to naturally calm myself.

I asked for

uh a teammate's cap

and I know that I can't represent his

brand and I know I can't represent his

name.

So I had to flip the cap inside out and

just swim with the black cap. But in

that moment

you're calm because you've prepared for

it, right? So like I mean even like

visualization, visualization is

something that that we did my whole my

whole entire career. Uh and it would be

three different ways how you want or you

would play three different tapes

how you want the race to go, how you

don't want the race to go

and what if, right? And how and and and

what if this happens in the race, how do

you how do you adapt? How do you adjust,

right? So it doesn't matter what

happens. Whenever I get there, I'm

prepared. If I lose, if my cap rips, my

goggles break, they fill up with water,

it doesn't matter because my emotions

will stay in check.

And if you can handle your emotions in

the most tense pressured situations,

then you're able to be the best version

of you, right? So like you know, going

back to 2008, I think it was you know,

for me I think it was you know, lack of

better terms, it was like I

I was in the matrix.

Like literally time slowed down. Like I

was just like, all right, cool. Like

I'm more prepared. Let's go.

But it's preparation. And it's again,

yeah, had I not done those 6 years, I

probably don't get the exact results

that I had. You know, like we always

this is something that that um

I always hope that people can relate to,

but um when you're trying to accomplish

a goal

you know, obviously it's not going to

happen like that. It's not going to

happen overnight.

There has to be like little short

in-term goals through that process to

reach the big goal.

So through that process my coach and I

would always say

you know

coming to practice

that's a deposit into the bank.

Right? And 4 years from now, I hope our

bank account is massive

because when we go to the Olympic Games,

I want to withdraw that whole entire

account and just put it on the table and

say let's go.

Right? So it's it's again, it's just a

way of looking at preparation and what

you're doing every single day

because greatness is really it's just a

bunch of small things that are done well

stacked upon

on top of each other. That's it. It's

really not that hard. What You said he

was almost psychotic. What's the most

psychotic thing he did?

>> [sighs]

>> I mean but him [clears throat] and I

have gotten in so many different

arguments and and

I mean it's almost like we were like a

married couple, you know, just like

fighting over like the smallest little

things. Like it's crazy. Um

I mean

>> [sighs]

>> I remember there was a time

uh I forget how old I was, but I mean

like I said, I was a little [ __ ]

And we were doing 400s free long course

and I was supposed to be going like

under 425 or around like 420

and

uh

I I wasn't. I was just going slower and

just pissing him off on purpose.

Um and he was like, you're going to go

you're going to go these times or we're

going to start over.

And I had like 10 or 15 seconds before

the timer went off where we were about

to do the next repeat. And I looked at

the clock and I just didn't say

anything. And right as I was getting

ready to push off I just said, no.

I went back under the water

>> [snorts]

>> and naturally when I was training I

always had to bilateral breathe. I had

to breathe on both sides.

Um so he was on my left side. I'd have

to go three right, three left.

So I ended up switching it that day cuz

I went three on my right

and then I went to my left and saw him

the first time and I was like, [ __ ]

that, I ain't going back to that side. I

[laughter] just kept breathing to my

right. I'll never forget he came down to

the other end and was chasing, throwing

his arms up in the air, whistling

whistling like crazy.

And he threw a bunch of kickboards and

pull buoys down on top of me as I was

pulling or as I was flip turning. I just

kept swimming.

I just kept swimming.

Um

we had a talk shortly after that.

>> [laughter]

>> Uh we both expressed some frustration,

but

um you know, again, I think it was just

the passion that we both had and and

I wouldn't change it because, you know,

I'm sure I did some things that that

pissed him off and frustrated him

throughout our time together and

likewise, there were some things that he

did that pissed me off and and

you know,

if you asked me if I would change

anything that I did or do it differently

in any way, shape, or form, I wouldn't.

Um not at all. You know, I think it's

it's kind of allowed me to

be the person who I am now and feel

comfortable in my own skin. So,

and I was able to learn a lot through

again, the craziness that we went

through. I mean,

I've thrown water bottles at him. Like,

it's it's been bad. Like, I I'm really

sorry, Grandpa.

Sorry I'm bringing this all out. People

have seen videos of it, though.

Cuz that was on a video. That was on a

documentary that we did.

No, it's just it it's it's the passion

and again, it's the frustration because

for us, we were trying to work in

hundreds of a second, right? You know,

like two of my Olympic medals were won

combined by 5/100 of a second.

Right? I won the 2004 100 fly by 4/100

and the 2008 100 fly by a 100.

Right place at the right time? Yeah, for

sure, but it's also hitting the wall at

the right place at the right time with

the right amount of force, momentum, and

speed, but it's also being able to judge

when to go all out and when not over

swim a race and this, that, and the

other. So, again, it's like everything

we did, it was it was a full-blown chess

match.

And we were able to

damn near perfect it. Or I only I broke

seven world records and won eight gold

medals. It should have been eight for

eight in '08, but it was eight for seven

in '08. So,

but yeah, it was it was awesome. And I

think it again, like having the

opportunities that I had later in life,

whether it's '04, '12, or '16, I don't

like talking about '12 cuz I hate that

Olympics cuz I didn't swim very well. Um

but

it wouldn't have been possible without

those things that I did back in the

early 2000s, right? Like, you know, from

'04 or 2000 to '04 and then that

transition from '04 to '08 when we were

at University of Michigan and and

you know, we assembled the training

group that we had there with I mean,

that was

one of the most iconic training groups,

you know, in my opinion,

that we've had. There was every single

day, there was there was a handful of

the guys that were just going at each

other.

And by by saying at each other, it was

just competition after competition after

competition every single stroke that you

took during practice. And it was it was

something that I just thrived from. I

loved being in that kind of environment.

You know what I really love about you

and your coach partnership, the more I

read about it. I'll tell you what I

really love about you and your coach.

You both kept each other on very high

standards. There was an incident I was

reading where he didn't show up because

he was sick and you texted him that

why would I have a coach if I have to

coach myself?

>> [laughter]

>> So, I said like, I was ruthless. Like, I

was absolutely ruthless. I was such a

jerk.

But it was like any any time that I had

the chance to come back at him, I took

it. Um and I was like I remember that. I

was like, why the hell am I swimming for

somebody else? Like, you're my coach.

Like, if you're not here, why the [ __ ]

am I here? I think I literally said

that. Um also to the point because I I

knew it would piss him off. Like there

would be times where I would just say

things on purpose to

make him mad.

Because it was fun and I just enjoyed

it.

I enjoyed getting under his skin.

And I also knew that if I did ever want

to get kicked out

and I didn't [clears throat] like the

practice that

I could make him pissed off and say

something and

he would

he would he would toss me. So,

there weren't many times like that. But

yeah, I mean, I there I knew what to say

um

to get a reaction.

And that's what I wanted. I wanted a

reaction.

And one thing that you just mentioned

and your coach, you guys did almost

every day. There was a video tape

technique, the visualization in your

head.

Walk me through it. If somebody who's

watching this right now

someone like me who wants to become an

absolute champion in whatever they're

doing.

What [clears throat] is that

visualization technique? Like, what

would you do

sitting down in your room every day? I

would just lay down. It would be like

you know, like if I'm getting ready to

go to practice or, you know, if I just

have like 30 minutes to lay down on the

couch or lay down on my bed and just

visualize, it would just be So, what are

you thinking? Let's say just walk me

around. Yeah, yeah. It would be like

What's going on in your head right now?

Like in a perfect situation, like

say I'm swimming the 200 butterfly. If

I'm swimming the 200 butterfly, like

what does a perfect race look like? A

perfect race looks like a great start,

good entry,

eight to 10 dolphin kicks, pop up right

before 15 m, take 16 to 17 strokes that

first 50, hit the wall with speed and

momentum on a full stroke, um get out

into open water,

kind of make the the rest of the

competitors deal with my wake and my

waves and make them fight through that

so it's harder for them and they have to

use more energy. Um

hitting the wall, breaking a world

record,

how the race doesn't or, you know, yeah,

I mean, like the perfect scenario. Like,

no matter what it is. Are you going in

for a work pitch and you're trying to

get your company to or you're trying to

get another company to sign your

company? Yeah, then it's a home run.

Like the, you know, how like the perfect

video is your vision of it going

perfectly how you want it to, how you

dream it to be. How you don't want it to

go is

>> [snorts]

>> you get touched out by a 100th of a

second because you screwed up a wall or

you misjudged a turn or

you didn't have the right start or your

preparation wasn't good. Your warm-up

wasn't good. Right? Like, all of those

things. So, it's trying to almost really

make sure your ducks are in a in a line

and

every little small piece of that puzzle

is fit into the right spot. And then how

the race could go would be

what if I

wake up and they don't like all of a

sudden they don't have the same food

that I've been eating every other day.

Or what if I wake up 20 minutes late? Or

what if my suit rips? Or what if my cap

rips? Or

what if I get sick? Right? All of these

things

are already played out. So, once I get

to the Olympics or once I get to World

Championships,

if it does happen, I'm like, all right,

cool. If I get sick, Doc, what do I need

to do? Right? Like, we got team doctor.

Doctor, what do I need to do to make

sure I can get out there to compete and

be my best? Um

all of those Yeah, I mean, it's again,

it's it's another form of preparation

because I feel like if you get into a

situation that you're not prepared for

or you haven't thought of, then you're

not able to be your best self.

So, I guess in a long way of saying it,

it's controlling the controllables.

You know, like controlling the

controllables is something that that a

dear friend of mine, Greg Harden, taught

me

back in 2004.

And it it's really just such an easy

quote and a powerful quote because you

can really relate it to so many things

in life. Right? Like

if I'm thirsty, right? You saw my water

just explode cuz I was trying to break

the ice. So, I'm going to have a drink

of water. Like, if I'm tired, I'm going

to go take a nap or I'm going to go to

bed earlier tonight than I did last

night. It's literally that simple.

What do you need to get ready for a

meeting? X, Y, and Z. You have a list.

Do those three things. If you don't do

those three things, you're not fully

prepared. You're going to go to that

meeting and you're going to be like,

"Ah, [ __ ] I wish I would have done

that." Well, tough break cuz you didn't.

Right? So, and if you don't learn from

doing it that way

to get ready for the next time, then

what are you doing?

Right? So, it's it's it's just it's

different ways to look at preparation.

And for me, again, like I became

obsessed with it because

I wanted to have the opportunity to be

great. I didn't want anybody else to

take that opportunity from me. I wanted

to earn it. So, I prepared and I worked

harder than anybody else did. Period.

But would you play every day in your

head that you're winning the perfect

race? No, that's just I mean, that's

just like

that's just for big meets. Like, I'm

just doing I'm just visualizing for big

meets. I'm not doing it for every day.

Like

like I'm not laying in bed tonight and

being like,

"What's a perfect day tomorrow? Not

tomorrow. Should I go tomorrow? What's

Like, no. Like, it's like it's more it's

more just like 6 months before a race,

before a big meet. Like

you know, just kind of getting ready

into that mindset because when that

moment comes, again, like, yeah, World

Championships, you get a little bit more

often than the Olympic Games, but the

Olympic Games, you got to wait 4 years.

You know how long 4 years is to just

have a chance to go compete and

represent your country the Olympic

stage? Like, it sucks. It's awful. But

like, that's what I'm saying. Like, if

you're not prepared, somebody else is.

Especially at that level.

Right?

Cuz people do obsess. Right? And winning

a gold medal, it's what?

To have the chance Well,

to win a gold medal, it's less than 1%

of 1%.

>> [snorts]

>> So,

but for 6 months, you would play the

perfect perfect hiccups, the failure

every day in your head.

There was an incident where you won a

gold even when your goggles almost broke

like they were what there was water

inside your goggles.

You couldn't see there was blackout and

you still won. How many times did you

play that in your head or how many times

did you practice with broken goggles

before even you actually get there?

Well, I think you know when my coach

broke my goggles and I had to swim a

race without having a pair of goggles. I

think taught me to always have a backup

pair and

when that happened I was just like oh

[ __ ] Okay, I guess

I got to figure out what I'm going to do

and I think for me at that time

I reverted back to what I did in

training because

every single one of my 200s throughout

my career every one of my 200

butterflies throughout my career when I

was competing first second third and

fourth 50 all were the same strokes.

16 17 18 and then 19 or 20

depending on how many kicks I took off

the last one.

So I was like all right cool. I'm just

going to revert back to what I do

because in training we do these things

called stroke and time 50s.

So if you're trying to go 30 seconds

then you take 20 strokes.

29 19 28 18 27 17

So for me naturally I just started

counting my strokes after the first well

I guess right when I dove in because I

realized

>> [clears throat]

>> I started counting my strokes as soon as

I dove in because I realized that they

weren't going to stop leaking and also I

was unable to take my goggles off.

Because

when I would swim I would wear my

goggles

one cap

two cap another cap so I couldn't rip

all of it off and swim with no cap or

goggles it would just it would it just

wouldn't be good. So I ended up counting

my strokes at the first wall 16 second

wall 17 third wall 18 fourth wall is 19

or 20 I don't remember. Um but ended up

yeah winning a gold medal breaking a

world record

um and you can go back and look at that

video. I I was

honestly pissed

after I saw the time. Why?

I could have gone faster. I should have

gone faster.

I I think I could have gone at least a

half a second faster than that for sure

100% just because of the goggles. Yeah.

I was I was firing on all cylinders

going into that Olympic Games. But why

would you be pissed?

When you broke a world record you won

the gold.

I wanted to go faster.

That's me. Like honestly I didn't hit

the goal that I wanted right? The goal

the goal is hitting a certain time. It's

not winning it's not winning a gold

medal because I know if I get to a

certain time I'm the only one that's

thinking about doing it.

I'm the only one that's doing stuff

every single day to get there. So if I

hit that time

the rest will take care of itself.

Nobody else nobody else will win that

gold medal if I do that time. And what

was going on in your head

at that microsecond when you knew that

goggles have

Did you did you go like oh [ __ ] what do

>> nothing I can do.

I need to do?

There's nothing I could do at that

point. I couldn't

that was out of my control. The only

thing I could do was what was in my

control and that was try to win the race

with

what was at hand.

I knew I was the most prepared person

there. I just had to worry about my

stroke. I had to worry about counting my

strokes. That's all I did.

16

17

18 and then bang 19 20

ripped off and I was like

151 5

>> [snorts]

>> I should have been 150 point.

Should be one 150 for sure.

I thought honestly like I I truly

thought I could break 150 in the 200

butterfly at some point in my career.

I only went 151.

I think I could have gone a second and a

half faster at some point in my career.

That's insane even after breaking a

world record or winning gold you would

not be happy about it.

But it's the goals right? Like it's you

know like

like for me like I I just held myself to

such a high standard and I put the most

pressure on myself. Like didn't matter

what everybody else was saying or doing.

The the

the one person who put the most amount

of pressure on me was me.

Because it is in my control right? I'm

not going to be able to skip two weeks a

month six weeks eight weeks and just

wake up one day and break a world

record.

You have to do the work. If you're not

doing the work then skip it.

Do something else.

Tell me

Tell me about that phase which a lot of

people call it the alien phase.

>> [laughter]

>> Which was year 2008 Beijing where you

won eight gold medals. You competed

in eight races

and you won all of them.

There's never been an athlete in the

world till now who has ever gone that

far and have won so many medals.

What was what was that phase like that

alien phase where everything you touch

you would turn it into gold?

I mean yeah during those games and like

I guess from like 07 08 like those two

years like I

I truly felt I felt unbeatable in the

pool. I really did. Um What did you feel

like? Unbeatable. Like I literally felt

like there wasn't a single soul on the

planet that could touch me that could

beat me.

Um I just felt like I was super

prepared.

Um you know everyone says it's like that

10,000 hour mark right? Like I think

2007 was my 10,000 hour mark. Um

and then it just it just kept getting

better. I mean 2007 those world

championships in Melbourne were I mean

I might even say performance wise were

better than what they were in in in

Beijing.

Um I mean the times that I did the

amount that I was breaking world records

by I mean they were body lengths behind

me. Um

Yeah I mean again it's just it's the

preparation that I had done years prior

that were showing.

That's all it was it's right? Like you

know if you go out and buy a piece of

property and you want to build a house

you can't snap the fingers right? You

just got to put it up one brick at a

time and that's what I did one day at a

time leading up to that point. You know

2004 was you know obviously a learning

process for me be yeah it was a great

experience winning six gold medals. Um

but I think

it truly just prepared me for what was

coming in 2008

to make sure that I was overly prepared

obsessively prepared for every small

detail.

Um because I knew how hard it was going

to be to win seven let alone eight. What

was different about that phase?

Uh

I mean coming off of 2004 obviously you

know it was my first gold medal right?

So

you know

18 19 years of dreaming of winning a

gold medal and it happens.

Um you win a couple of them.

You get off of that Olympic Games and

then literally every headline is Michael

Phelps fails because he doesn't win

seven gold medals and I'm like

>> [laughter]

>> what are you talking about? Like this is

a joke.

Um honestly though like

uh you know to just have the chance to

win one was incredible but you know

winning six in an Olympics and then

winning eight in the next Olympics. Um

Yeah I was I I was just prepared. You

know like I mean even even going back to

like the the the quote that Ian Thorpe

said going into 2008. He said no one

will ever gold medals in an Olympic

Games. Like that for me is motivation.

Right? Like everything I did during that

time

you know truly was about trying to be as

perfect as I could perfect was going

eight eight for eight.

Um but again like I was competing

against

somebody who was pretty much fresh

every single time right? Like people go

to the Olympics and they might swim one

or two races. Exactly.

>> Right? And I'm swimming a total of 17

races 18 races in

eight days. Yeah that was like insane

right? That that's fascinating. Like

it's a full training week. Like during

that week with all of the warm-ups

warm-downs so that's that's 2000 2000

meters for warm-up 2500 meters for

warm-up 2000 meters for warm-down is

doing it twice a day plus all the

racing. I mean I'm swimming I was

swimming like 60,000 meters during a

competition week.

There are people that don't even train

60,000 65,000 yards or meters a week

period.

So again like

everything I did from 2000

to the first step I got with Bob from

him

destroying my strokes and recreating

them into what they were throughout my

whole entire career

got me to that point.

>> [snorts]

>> So

you started competing on 10th August and

then 10 11 12 13 there was only like one

day I think 15th August was off. I had a

morning off.

>> Yeah. I had a morning or I had a a

morning or an afternoon cuz the finals

were in the morning for that Olympics

where typically they're in the afternoon

or night time.

Uh I had one I typically had one session

off every every uh

every major major competition. Uh Um

and and by that point I needed it. Yeah.

[laughter] I was so tired by the end of

those meets, man.

Um

You slept Did you sleep the whole day

like on 15 when you got got an off

between those events?

>> Uh no, like during an off day I would

wake up normal time.

Uh I would I would stay on that

schedule, that routine. I would wake up

and I would have like a morning like a

splash.

And then I literally would do

800 to 1,000, like not much. I was

supposed to do more, but I never did. Um

and I would just go and just kind of

feel I'm just feel how I was feeling,

see if I needed to get a little massage

or whatever I needed to stretch or

something before the finals. Um

go have lunch,

watch a movie,

play some games. I don't know. Like we

were always playing spades or risk,

hearts.

Um some kind of game to kill time, but

yeah, I mean it was it was a pretty

normal day. I wouldn't really I wouldn't

think about much and by the time the

afternoon came we we always have a team

meeting before we would go over to the

final session.

And you know, from the team meeting it

was

headphones go on.

No one talks to me or I don't talk to

anybody. They might talk to me, but I I

ignore absolutely every noise. Mhm. Get

to the pool about 2 hours before my

race, stretch for about half hour, dive

in the warm-up pool 90 minutes before my

race, and then do my warm-up, get out,

dry off, put warm clothes on 30 minutes

before my race, get my racing suit on,

jump back in the pool for 3 to 500, just

kind of stroke play, kind of feel my

body, make sure everything's going, get

out, walk up for the race 15-20 minutes

beforehand, and then bang, that's it.

You get either

I I mean my races were anywhere from

47 seconds to

4 minutes and 3 seconds.

That's it.

Did you ever feel like taking an off in

that alien phase? Taking off? Yeah. Like

an off day of training or maybe just you

didn't feel like like today is not the

day. I'm sure there must have been at

least one day where you must have been

>> mean, yeah, but I think the goals that I

had were were

too big. They were big enough where I

couldn't take a day off. I couldn't.

What did you tell yourself on the day

when you were feeling sick and you

didn't want to get out of bed?

>> I mean, for me like when I when I would

get out of bed, the first things I see

are my goal sheets.

Like literally first thing I wake up,

they're on my desk, they're on my

bedside table because I you know, for me

I want to know why I'm waking up. What

is the purpose of that day? Yeah, I

might feel like [ __ ] but if I can get

10% if I can get 20% if I can get 50%

out of that day,

then isn't that better than getting

zero? Yeah. You know? Like as long as

you're not taking a step backwards.

Cuz if you are, try to flip that car

around and go a different direction,

right? Try something different.

Um because taking steps back just it it

it crushes you. Absolutely crushes you.

So what does a goal sheet of an of a

world champion looks like? I mean, for

me it was

they were bro- all of my times were

broken down into 50s, right? So like

if I'm swimming a 100, it's broken down

the first 50 and the second 50, and then

it has my total time. They're they're

down to the hundredth of a second. Every

day you would have this? Well, I just

see like I see So I would have

short-term goals and long-term goals.

Long-term goals are

what times do I want to swim at the

Olympic Games or World Championships?

And then the short-term goals are what

times do I need to hit this season in

order to give me a chance at the end of

the season to rip 154 in the 200 IM or

155 in the 200 IM back there.

Um

And then yeah, it's just I mean

and then I basically I I I

I wrote I I would write down basically

100, 200 free.

He would always make me do the mile at

least once a year. I [ __ ] hated the

mile.

Uh

100, 200 back, 100, 200 fly, 200, 400 IM

cuz I'd swim all of those races

throughout the year. And I'd sometimes

swim a breaststroke race, too.

Um

But yeah, I mean like I think for me,

you know, for the 400 IM I knew that I

had to I knew that they like my strokes

had to be at a certain level in order to

do the times that I needed to do in the

400 IM, right? To be able to add those

times together to make the right splits.

And it all came what I was doing it it

it all came from what I was doing every

single day, right? Like if I'm going in

like if I'm going in for a practice, my

coach like Bob would show me the

practice. He'd be like, "These are This

is what we're doing today. We're doing

10 400 back or 10 200 back short course,

and then the last one I want you to try

to go 140." I'm like, "All right, cool.

Let's go 140." Um and I would start and

just descend my way down to that time,

and he would give me goals every single

day of what to hit in practice because

those goals then were hand in hand with

what I was trying to do long-term,

right? And if I did that every single

day and I did, whether it was freestyle,

backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly, IM,

it didn't matter. I was doing those

times back to back to back to back to

back to back to back every single week.

Why? Because nobody else was.

Mhm. What's the definite What's What's

the definition of insanity?

Doing the same thing over and over again

and expecting different results. I was

doing different things over and over

again expecting different results.

I knew I was going to get them because

again, there wasn't another person on

the planet that was more prepared for me

in those last in those two decades of my

of my career on this planet. There just

wasn't.

That's why I was able to have the

success that I did. Was it all about

competing yourself, the old version of

you, or was it about competing with

other people who would come

as your competition in the Olympics

game?

I was competing

>> were you competing about against

yourself or others? No, I was competing

against the clock.

That's it. Against the clock.

That's how my That's how my time or

that's how my sport was defined.

By a time.

How fast can you go?

And again, like I was saying,

if the times that I dreamt of and I

believed that I could go

were faster than the world record or

faster than what other people believed,

if I did those times, guess what would

happen?

I'm going to win. Yeah. Right? So

for me it it it became a numbers game.

But it's said that you knew your

competition better than you they knew

themselves.

>> sure. Why would you say that? You would

study on them? I mean, I knew how they

would swim their races. It's easy,

right? Like I I feel like Like would you

study your competitors, the way they

would do style? What would you study

about them?

>> Well, I mean like I I always I learned

things from them, right? Like I would go

back and you know, if you talk about Ian

Thorpe, like I would learn from his

freestyle and how he swam and his kick

and his underwaters and you know, just

how his body moved in the water. Um you

know, I took a lot of core exercises

from different countries that I would

see on the pool deck. Um just because

like if they're doing it, then I can do

it and I can beef it up. Like I can

alter the exercise and change it and

make a hybrid. Um but like Lochte, like

I mean, I swam against Lochte for 15

years, 10 or 15 years, right? So

um you know, I felt like I knew him

almost better than he knew himself just

because of the history that we had. And

of course, yeah, like I watch a lot of

tapes. I I I mean, I I I don't you know,

I'm I I don't have any connection to the

sport anymore

now.

Um you know, there are a couple

international people that I talk to,

couple international athletes that I

talk to, but I have zero connection with

anything to do with the sport of

swimming anymore. Um

But yeah, it was it was just I don't

know.

Studying them? Yeah. You just I mean,

cuz it's like

you could you yourself can only do so

much, right? So it's like if if you

can't learn from others or others that

have come before you, then

you're just never going to grow. And

again, like it was always back to that

goal of wanting to change the sport and

take the sport to a different level and

You're talking about Ian Thorpe. He also

said

it very highly unlikely that you will

win eight golds. Yeah, win eight golds.

>> you you taped that quote on your locker

room. Why would you do that? It was in

the back of my locker in in Michigan in

2008. Um

because it it it's kind of like the same

story back to my teacher, right? Like my

teacher telling me I'd never amount to

anything and proving her wrong.

And if

a fellow competitor and a friend of mine

is telling

um

Excuse me, if a friend of mine and a

competitor of mine is telling reporters

that it's not possible to win eight gold

medals, guess what? I'll have the last

laugh. Um and I it's you know, like

Thorpe is a great friend of mine, always

has been.

Um

but even like after after that and then

after 2016 in Rio cuz he said no one

over the age of 30 will win an Olympic

gold medal.

Um

he

he sent me a text uh

right after and I was giving him [ __ ]

for it, and he was like, "Dude, he's

like, I know how your mind works. I was

just giving you a little extra

motivation."

Um

but no, I I I you know,

I I always like proving people wrong

especially Especially if they doubt

something that I think is possible. Um

You know, I think one thing

my coach took out of my vocabulary was

the word can't.

Cuz if you say you can't do something,

you can't. Your mind has already made it

up for you. Like you made that choice,

right? Don't do it. Don't think about it

anymore. Don't think about whatever that

was. Move on from it. Because it's going

to be exponentially harder since you

told yourself you can't. Right? So, it's

such a negative word. So, we removed it

from my my vocabulary and and you know,

for me I I I just believe that whatever

I did,

whatever I dreamt of, excuse me, let me

take a step back. Whatever I dreamt of

was possible based off of the actions

that I did, right? It's back to that

quote. Actions speak louder than words.

Right? What you do every single day, how

you show up, when you show up, it

matters. And it's going to matter at the

most important time, right? So, um yeah,

that's it. Would you ever imagine

yourself losing a race?

Uh

sure.

Yeah, why not? What if I lost? Yeah,

because I never want it to happen. So,

of course.

Yeah.

Do you do that?

>> Yeah.

And

>> What if I get second by a hundredth of a

second instead of winning by a hundredth

of a second? Yeah, I'd be [ __ ]

pissed. But,

the only way I can change that is

controlling what I do every day. So,

maybe I have to prepare better, right?

And was there any Well, I think

I think to I think to better answer

that, like

I remember my losses more than I

remember my victories.

Because the feeling of defeat

I never wanted to have again.

Right? Cuz it feels like [ __ ] when you

lose. It feels like [ __ ] when you fail.

It's not It doesn't feel fun, right? So,

for me, I looked at it as if I failed,

it was my fault.

Because I didn't prepare.

I didn't take the time to focus on the

small details that are going to help me

down the road.

So, those defeats

motivate me even more to never have that

happen again.

What's about losing that you hate so

much? I just don't like the feeling of

somebody being better than me.

>> [laughter]

>> Um no, honestly, I I think that's what

it is. Like I just I like

you I think it's it's like you ask the

greats or the goats of all sports or

probably all walks of life. And and I

think they'll say

they hate losing more than they enjoy

winning.

It's just that just the feeling of

defeat. Like I just I don't like it.

It's just something I I don't enjoy. And

if there's something in my control, in

my power to make sure that I have a

chance at least to succeed,

then that's what I'm going to do. And if

I fail and I fail because that person is

more prepared than me, then so be it.

But, I'm not going to show up

unprepared, right? Like it's just it's

not who I am.

Did you use any psychological

warfare sort of tactic against your

competitors which you secretly would use

>> No.

>> and not share it with anyone?

>> No. I mean,

I would say some people probably think

me doing my back slap and clearing my

throat on the block was a form of trying

to get in their head, intimidation. It

wasn't. Um you know, the clearing of the

throat,

I don't know when that came in. I feel

like it was maybe post 2008.

Um but my arm slaps,