Fact Check: Michigan Senate Debate — El-Sayed vs. Rogers on Gas, Healthcare, Iran, and More

Democrats >> and Democrat Abdul Elsed. >> Shouldn't be this hard to afford a tank

of gas. Shouldn't be this hard to pay your rent or your mortgage. Zeroing in on the key issues that matter most to

you. >> It's so messed up. I don't even know what to say.

>> Too high right now in the grocery store. Gas. Common sense would be nice. >> AIC more regulations.

>> A critical seat in a battleground [music] state. Over 60% of Michiganders think the state is going in the wrong

direction. >> When they come for our democracy, we vote back down.

>> Tonight, you get to decide which candidate will get your vote. Good evening from the nation's capital.

I'm your host Leland Vidder from NewsNation. It's debate night and the stakes are high, not only for Michigan,

but for the country as the balance of power in the Senate takes center stage. Our moderator for tonight's debate is

News 8 anchor and veteran political analyst Rick Alban. The debate will air around the state, stream online, and

across the country on NewsNation. Before we get to the questions, let's review the rules. You will each have 60

seconds to answer a question and follow-ups get 30 seconds. A digital clock will turn red to alert candidates

they have 10 seconds till time is up. Each candidate will also have 30 seconds for a closing statement. Now live from

your local election headquarters and the Wood TV studios in Grand Rapids. This is the final night of debate week in

Michigan. Thank you, Leland, and welcome to NewsNation viewers across the country

and voters all across Michigan. Thank you for being here. We're going to start with the subject that will impact every

single person watching. Dr. Elsa, we'll begin with you. Would you support pausing the federal gas tax? And what

else would you advocate doing to lower fuel prices? You have 60 seconds, sir. >> First, Rick, thank you so much for

having me. Look, I'm a doctor and I'm a dad. And as a dad, I know how much it costs me to fill up my gas tank. It is

insane. $80. $80 to fill up your gas tank. And yes, I would support pausing the federal gas tax. But there is one

thing that is actually causing this. It's the war in Iran. A war that has been cheerled by my opponent since the

beginning. Called it a winwin win. I don't know about you, but when I go to the gas tank, I don't feel like I'm

winning. I don't feel like our country is winning. Seven months on, eight months on. How long is this going to

last? We can do so much better. But here's the problem. If we don't stop this war, we don't stop it now, we're

going to continue to watch as the Iranian regime chokeolds the straight of Hormuz, making our energy prices higher,

and you're going to pay for it, both at the gas tank and at the grocery store. And so, we've got to end that war above

and beyond pausing the gas tax. We also have to hold the oil and gas corporations who are using this moment

to profiter us, who have bought off my opponent, accountable for what they're doing to raise our prices. Congressman,

the same question to you. Would you support pausing that gas tax? And what else would you do to lower fuel prices?

>> Yeah, I've I've been uh pretty aggressive about saying we need a pause both on the state level and the federal

level. Remember when it that 50 cents a gallon, which will help commuters, went through the Democratly uh controlled

state senate. They said no. Republicans tried to say give drivers a break. I think that's really important. The other

thing we did in in talking with farmers is we need some diesel help and some diesel a aggreg aggregarian uh diesel

help for us. Uh so I've called for a diesel rebate number one uh and a uh pause on uh exports of diesel to give a

temporary break. We can re resume that once the war comes to an end. I do believe it's going to come to an end. We

need it to come to an end. Uh but I will say just a couple of things about my my opponent here. His policies will raise

your t uh your uh the cost of every gallon of gasoline. Number one, raise your utility rates, cost you $20,000 for

a Medicare for all plan that allow takes away private insurance from individuals. It is a disaster. We cannot afford

Abdul. >> Dr. Elad, I want to do a followup with you now. Uh the United States is

producing oil and gas at near record pace, but the products are traded on the international market and of course

that's what sets the price. Should the federal government implement price controls on domestically produced

production? You have 30 seconds. >> Look, I definitely think that's that's something we should consider. Look, we

are in an emergency. When you're paying $5 gas and $8 diesel, that's an emergency. And I think we have a

responsibility right now to make sure we do everything we can to address it. But you just heard something out of my

opponent. He said he thinks the war is going to end. He's got a direct line to the president who's making sure the war

does not end and he's not using it because he's cheerleaded this war the entire time. And this is not a when it

ends. We need to end it. That's what you're electing a US senator to do to stand up to Donald Trump and end the

stupid war. >> Congressman, follow up for you for 30 seconds. Would you be in favor of doing

some type of price controls if these prices stay this high? You have 30 seconds.

>> No, I think you could do it through the mechanism of which I just described. Uh, and the doctor, well, he's not really a

doctor. He's says he's a physician. Not can't if matter of fact, if somebody came into his office and he tried to

treat that patient, he'd go to jail. So, listen to this guy and what he's trying to sell here today. You're going to find

out that this guy is not what he says he is. He is actually selling uh the best con I think I've ever seen. This is the

first round of that. And I can't wait to talk more about that. >> You were mentioned in that comment. You

have 30 seconds to respond. >> You know, my opponent here is going to make this about him and about me, but

really in the end, this is about you. It's about whether or not you can afford your gas, you can afford your groceries,

whether or not you can see a doctor. Look, I have a medical degree from Columbia University. Scott issues my

credentials. He could take it up with them. But it's not really about me. It's about whether or not you can see your

doctor. It's about whether or not you trust your next US senator to stand up to Trump and Trump isn't. But when

you've running because Donald Trump called you and asked you to run, you can tell he's not going to stand up to

anybody. >> 30 seconds to respond, then we'll move on.

>> Well, first of all, I'm running because in the last quarter century, we've lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs in Michigan.

In the last eight years, we have the highest uh utility rates in the Midwest, highest auto insurance rates in the

country. Now you have to be 40 years old or the average new homeowner is 40 years old. Our education is now 45th in the

country. That's why I'm running. My opponent everything he's talking about and he won't talk about how to pay for

it or what he does uh to make sure that he's taking money out of your pocket because he can't. You did that, man.

That that was your policy. >> NAFTA your policy. >> We'll come back to this. We'll move on

right now. I want to talk about the trade battle between the United States and Canada. What it means for Michigan

jobs and Michigan prices. Congressman Rogers, a week ago you said this at a news conference near Sagenov.

>> Anytime you have that series and list of tariffs, I'm I argue some are going to be really good for Michigan, some are

probably not going to be good for Michigan. So what I've said and committed to is going back working with

the president to try to get rid of the ones that we can there's consensus aren't helping.

>> But just yesterday you released a new ad that said quote here in Michigan we know Canada is not our enemy. We need to end

this tariff war now. So in the course of a week it seems that you've changed your tone on tariffs. Are you saying that we

need to eliminate all tariffs for Canada? You have 60 seconds. >> I would like to see the deal made. I

have actually called uh the White House this week, talked to the sec uh the Secretary of Commerce about getting the

deal done. Canada still has some high tariffs for US goods and they did it before this started. Those should be

eliminated. There are tariffs that I think are too high and not helpful for us. We ought to get rid of those. So,

this is about getting the best deal possible. I'd like to see it end. I think we need to end it. Uh and I and as

matter of fact have made those phone calls this week uh to make sure that we can get those things taken care of. Now

again remember my opponent here wants to raise the cost of everything you touch. He's for an energy uh carbon credit that

would everything you touch your groceries getting more expensive your car more expensive your light and

electric bill more expensive. the fact that he's going to take away your private health insurance, turn it over

to the government, and it would cost each family about $20,000 a year in new taxes. This is the problem

we've got to face. >> Dr. Elsad, on your website, you say, quote, I support targeted smart tariffs

that would help protect Michigan manufacturing and incubate the industries of the future with unions at

the forefront. With that said, what is a Canadian tariff that you might keep? You have 30 uh I'm sorry, you have 60

seconds. >> One that's actually logical, unlike anything Donald Trump has ever actually

done in office. Look, you're hearing somebody who has cheerlead again a Canadian tariff policy that we are

paying $5,600 a year for. If we were serious about using tariffs, we would do it in the way

that the UAW has advocated. The UAW has advocated for smart tariffs where we actually hook it to an industrial policy

that makes sense. We're invested in high growth, high manufacturing capacities and then we use tariffs to protect our

own market. This is like everything hamfisted, chaotic, self-s serving that Donald Trump does. And the issue that is

making Mike move, right? You talked about his flip-flop. The reason he's flip-flopping has nothing to do with

policy. Has nothing to do with your costs. Has everything to do with his sagging poll numbers. He doesn't like

the fact that this is not a pathway to power for him anymore. So all of a sudden he's reverse course. He's doing

an ad drinking labats and talking about the Red Wings, pretending like he was not for this the entire time. Be

serious, my guy. Like, just be serious. People deserve to know that I have a leader who's gonna be serious about

policy. >> We're going to move on to healthcare unless you have a response.

>> Well, listen, he's what he's talking about. A few weeks ago, he said, "I will go back and fight every one of the

tariffs that have been put in place." Detroit diesel added a third shift because of those tariffs. We have the

the Chevy Silverado came back to Michigan. huge billion dollar investment because of those tariffs. We saved uh

Traverse City cherries because of those tariffs. He wants to undo it because he can't see past his own political

rhetoric. We didn't change. What we said is things move. We're trying to get it wrapped up. We want a deal on those

tariff deals. >> Dr. Elsa had 30 seconds. We have to move on.

>> Weak cowardly won't stand up until his poll numbers drop. This is what you can expect from a guy who's bought off $5

million from corporations to run his previous campaigns. Voted to raise your prescription drug prices or to keep them

high 19 times. He has the audacity to do an ad looking at the drug prices in Canada. Except for he voted four times

to keep you from buying the prescription drugs in Canada. It's incoherent. The only thing he cares about is his power

and going back one more time through the revolving door to make what $14 million you made.

>> You know, I I listen, I can't let that stand. I mean, let me just tell you this.

I I won't let this stand from a guy who is taking corporate pack money. He snuck in the back. He snuck in the back door

to Chuck Schumer. That money is raining down on him. Oh, by the way, corporate executives, Fizer Pharmaceutical,

>> gentlemen, Google. >> We have to keep this 15 seconds. We're moving on to healthare. Two yachts made

14 million. Do you guys know what Telefonica is? It's a corporation he advised that was helping Maduro spy on

his own people. How much money you make off them? Can you tell us how much money you made?

>> Can you say? >> Okay. Is this like the deal that you cut with county where you took taxpayers

money to run for the United States? To >> wrap this up by the next woman who replaced him got paid $100,000 less.

>> We're going to move to healthare at the bottom of the deck. I >> I do want to talk about healthare. I

know he doesn't, but let's let's get on. >> We're going to talk about healthcare. And guys, I'm going to tell you right

now, we've got to stick to our time limits. We've got a lot to cover. I appreciate your passion, but please

let's try to keep this orderly. We're now moving to healthcare. Democratic state representative Karen Witet said

she is supporting Republican Mike Rogers in this race because of your Medicare for all position. Dr. Elsa, her husband

has employer provided health insurance. >> You will lose your health insurance if the other candidate gets in office.

There's no ifands or buts about it. That is what Medicare for all means. >> Dr. Elsad, you have said additional

private coverage would become redundant. In your plan, could families keep their private health care? Yes or no, you have

60 seconds. >> Yes. Absol. Absolutely. Rick, if families want to keep their private

health insurance, that's fine by me. But for too many people, if you lose a job, excuse me, if you want to lose your if

you if you lose your job, >> if you turn 26, you get married, get divorced, turn 65, all ways that you can

lose your healthcare in America. That is exactly what this guy has signed on to. He voted against the ACA for God's sake.

I want to guarantee every single person in this country cradle to grave coverage without premiums, co-pays, deductibles,

that doesn't have a network that does not pay a corporate CEO tens of millions of dollars a year that allows you to

have the security of knowing you're not going to be one of the millions of people in this country who fall into

medical debt to the tune of $225 billion. Contrast that with him. He wants you to have to pay $50 to see a

doctor. He wants to continue to be big pharma's champion. He called himself big pharma's champion. took more money from

the pharmaceutical industry than any member of Congress, more than any member of Congress in the Michigan delegation.

He This is a guy who wants to do service for the corporations. Of course, he's going to stand up for them.

>> Congressman Rogers staying with healthc care flint physician and past president of the American Medical Association. Dr.

Bobby Mcola criticized the federal healthc care legislation enacted last year that you said would protect

Medicaid. The cuts to federal health care programs, including Medicaid and CHIP,

will shift costs to the states and specifically to physicians and hospitals to provide uncompensated care at a time

when rural hospitals and physician practices are struggling to keep their doors open.

>> The congressman, the doctor says the changes will instead make health care less accessible. What specifically in

that law lead you to say that Medicaid was protected? You have 60 seconds. $50 billion to rural hospitals was a good

start for that. But let me just talk about this. So when I was in Congress, I actually pushed the acceleration of

generic drugs. Trust me, the pharmaceutical company's not happy about it. There are 2 million Michigan

families today who are on Medicare enjoying Part D prescription drugs, which I did champion because there was

no prescription drug coverage under Medicare, which I thought was a terrible idea. But what my friend here just wants

to do is he's kind of like a glitchy AI chatbot is say the same thing over and over and over again. But let me tell you

this. He has taken money from groups associated and support the Muslim Brotherhood. He has taken money from

individuals on his campaign who openly support Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda. He's taken money from the George Soros

family. What we found out is that this thing goes way back. Apparently, they paid for his education in Colombia. Now

they're paying for his campaign. By the way, that's a billionaire. Last I checked.

>> What degree did I get? >> Time. I'm going to give you a 30 second rebate.

>> What degree did I get? I get interviewed by him. As a doctor, as a doctor, I understand exactly what's happening. He

says, "I like to say the same thing." Not a physician. He says, "I like to say the same thing." He's done the same

thing over and over and over again. [clears throat] You know what that is? Vote to keep your prescription drug

prices high 19 times. A million dollars alone from big pharma. another million dollars from the health insurance

corporations. Of course, he is touting their talking points. This is a guy who has not been serious about providing

people health care his entire career. What he has been serious about is making sure that he can monetize his time in

public office. $14 million, two yachts, a McMansion in Florida. So, at the end of the day, I I'm a doctor. I want

people to have healthcare. >> All right. We're going to move on after this. 30 seconds. Let me How does a guy

who's had less than four years of work experience uh who by the way on the campaign trail said he had 10 o own a

luxury property in the United Arab Emirates. He's worth a million bucks. Somebody has to tell me how this math

works. A his facts are wrong. Those are lies. But he is consistently cons uh not telling the truth. Well, let me just say

it. He's lying. So, he lied about being a physician. He lied now about being an Egyptian citizen or not being an

Egyptian citizen. I can't figure out what he is saying. Can I this impact he's talking about? He's trying to tell

you where he wants you to be. That's a con man. >> So So

>> Congressman, we've got to stay on time. >> I just I just want to respond to this. >> You can respond to directly.

>> He wanted to make this about him or me. But the question is about you. Can you afford your gas? Can you afford your

groceries? under this guy who's gonna rubber stamp everything Donald Trump tells him to rubber stamp. You're gonna

continue to pay way more out the nose because he works for corporations and Donald Trump.

>> Okay, look. Here's the situation. We've got dozens of questions we want to get to. You can't litigate all of these with

14 different rebuttals. So, please work with me. I want you to say what you want to say. Do it within the body of an

answer and we'll try to move along. Let's talk about another subject. This time it's a viewer question and here's

my colleague Amber Krisco with that. ICE has been a source of controversy since President Trump's second term

began. This question is from Deb Mel. >> My question for both candidates with regard to ICE and ICE agents, what is

your plan for holding them accountable or holding them to the same standards as other law enforcement officials? And if

the plan is to abolish ICE, what is your plan for keeping our borders and citizens safe? Congressman Rogers,

you've been supportive of President Trump's immigration enforcement strategy. Name one instance or one

circumstance in which you believe the administration went too far. You have 60 seconds.

>> You know, I I think the public uh efforts in Minnesota were probably not appropriate. I actually did fugitive uh

raids when I was an FBI agent in Chicago. You always want to go in quiet, get the bad guy, get out of the

neighborhood for less problem. So that's that to me was something that they could have done differently. They made that

correction. They made that adjustment. But it has been the largest decrease in murders ever recorded. Almost 20% across

the nation. Why? They were targeting murderers and rapists who were here illegally doing bad things. As a matter

of fact, just in this town, we had Ruby Garcia who was killed by an illegal immigrant who if he had not been here,

we'd still have Ruby alive today. So if you think uh about what we need to do to make sure that neighborhoods and

Americans are safe, that's exactly what we need to do. And I would apply the same law enforcement standards to the

FBI as I do the ICE agents. I think they do fine. Doesn't mean every one of them is perfect.

>> Dr. Aliad, you've made your position clear. You want to abolish ICE. Let me give you a scenario. If an undocument

undocumented immigrant in Michigan commits a violent crime, serves a sentence, and has a deportation order,

under your system, would he be deported? You have 60 seconds. >> Yes. But you don't have to do that by

violating the whole Constitution in the way that ICE has been enabled to do by this rogue administration. ICE right now

is not about immigration enforcement. ICE is about terrorizing our streets. He talked about what happened in

Minneapolis. I went there. He said it was probably not right. I mean, definitely not right. They killed two

people. You can keep a safe and secure southern border. I believe we have to keep a safe and secure southern border,

which is crazy to me because my opponent, he voted against border funding when he was in Congress and now

he likes to talk about being a tough guy on a border. Those are not the same thing as what ICE is doing. I think we

can go back to an era like INS when we im we enforced immigration policy at the edge of the constitution and we

respected the constitution in doing it. But I also think we need a pathway to citizenship for folks who are stuck in

limbo right now. You've got this tough guy attitude to immigration that's not keeping us safe. In fact, it's

terrorizing folks in our streets. It's not funding the southern border which needs to be kept safe. But what it is

doing, it's weaponizing an agency of the government at the tune of Donald Trump and his goods.

>> All right, Congressman, in the interest of a short rebuttal of 15 seconds, he talked about one of your votes when you

were in Congress. >> You know, this is really fascinating to me. He has called for open borders,

decriminalizing crossing the border, giving illegals uh uh identification, and allowing them on Medicare. You can't

get a worse plan than what you hear from Abdul. Go to stopabdul.com. Every one of his deleted tweets and

videos are there. Very educational. That's awesome. Good for you. Uh look, at the end of the day, I think we have

to have a safe and secure southern border. That's why I wouldn't vote against border funding like him. But we

also have to obey our constitution. We are a country of laws and a country of immigrants and I think we need a pathway

uh to to legal immigration for folks. >> Thank you both. I want to turn now to the war in Iran. You have both indicated

you want it to come to an end and we talked about this a few minutes ago, but what does that look like? Dr. Elsad, can

the war in Iran come to an end if the street of Hormuz isn't fully open and if Iran has the ability to produce a

nuclear weapon? You have 60 seconds. >> I might be oldfashioned, but I believe in diplomacy. In fact, diplomacy is what

the Obama administration had used to negotiate a scenario in Iran where we did not have proliferation of of of

nuclear material. We were at a steady state except for Donald Trump just doesn't like anything that President

Obama has done. So, he decided to rip it up in his first term and then his second term decided to make war that was

completely unnecessary. So, I do think that we can end the war and we can actually by peaceful means

diplomatically address this challenge. But look, this is what happens when you start wars you never should be fighting.

We literally taught the Iranian regime that they had a choke on the straight hover moose. And now we're living in

that reality. But that's what happens when you've got a ridiculous leader like Donald Trump who does not know what he's

doing and jumped into this war for God knows what reason. And the whole time my opponent backs stopped it. Win, win,

win. Are you winning? Are we winning? Is anyone actually winning? That's the kind of policy you're going to get from a guy

who wants to be a sock puppet for the Trump administration. No thinking, no thought. Whatever Donald Trump says,

jump. He says, "How high?" I'm going to give you 10 seconds. And once again, the question, can there be an end to the war

if the straits is not open and if Iran has the ability to produce a nuclear weapon? 10 seconds with a yes or no,

please. >> Yes. And we do that at the edge of diplomacy rather than war. That's

raising our gas prices and our grocery rates. >> Congressman Rogers, same question to

you. You every both of you have said you'd like to see this war come to an end. But if the straits aren't open and

if Iran has the ability to possess a nuclear weapon, can you have an end to the war? 60 seconds.

>> Well, I this is why I've called to an end of the war. Militarily, they have set back the nuclear program at least 20

years. They've decimated their army, navy, their air force. Uh they still have some limited capability to inflict

harm on their neighbors. So you you uh this would be the time to wrap it up. That was the stated intent. But this is

I think the issue that is the mo maybe the most important. My opponent here would not condemn the IRGC which today

is hanging two 19year-old kids for saying that they want freedom in their homeland. This is the same IRGC that has

killed American troops uh in Iraq. It has blood on their hands tried a terrorist attack here in the United

States. If you can't condemn the IRGC, you have no business in the United States Senate. And if you think about

why, you know, his supporters uh funnel money through uh from a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood, this is

a huge problem and that is an ideological problem that we cannot allow to walk into the United States.

>> Quickly in 10 seconds, can the war be ended if straits are not open and if Iran can produce a nuclear weapon? Well,

no, it can't if they have a nuclear weapon, but the all of the information is they do not have that capability any

longer. So, I mean, that's you're asking a question of a hypothetical. The information that is available says that

they're they have been set back 20 years. >> So, I I just want to say he's been

cheerleading this war for the better part of 20 years. And I will condemn any any use of force against a domestic

population abroad. That's not hard to do. But I also condemn a war we shouldn't be fighting because here we

are fighting this stupid war because people like him have been pushing for it for 20 years. When you've got an

international problem, he's got a war for that. That's his approach. Every single situation, Iraq, Iran, and what

other wars is he going to cheerlead? That is dangerous. We cannot have that. And I tell you what's this is important.

>> 15 seconds, please. >> He can't condemn a terrorist act that happened on our soil in the state of

Michigan. He can't bring himself to condemn. >> I didn't condemn it. No, you did not.

You absolutely did not. make stuff up. >> Talking about making stuff up. >> I literally condemn you know can't

condemn him. He can't condemn Hamas. He can't condemn the Muslim Brotherhood. He says his home is Egypt. This is all

starting. >> We are going to We continue. We can continue this conversation in the second

half. >> He doesn't want a home in Florida. I just he took it off the market. I don't

know for why, but he did take it off as a home in the United Arab Emirates. >> We're done.

>> Staying in the Middle East. Congressman Rogers in the United States. >> Not in Michigan. guy.

>> I'd like to be part of the debate, too. So, let's do this. We'll stay in the Middle East. Congressman Rogers, you

have pledged unconditional support for Israel's right to defend herself. Is there any action by the Israeli

government that would cause you not to support sending US military assistance? You have 60 seconds.

>> Uh, pretty hypothetical question. I support uh just staunchly their right to exist, the right to exist for the Jewish

state and the right to defend itself in a very difficult neighborhood. And if you think about why my opponent is so

wrong on all of this, his biggest funders, his biggest funders uh are from a group that supports the Muslim

Brotherhood. He gets money from people who support openly Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda. uh his family was even

included in those discussions. Listen, this is the most important thing that we do when we go back to Washington is keep

America safe. I wore the uniform of the United States of America. I was a special agent with the FBI to keep

America safe. These are the most important issues. The prattling and repetition of his argument does not

solve the dismantling of terrorist network that America demands. got 10 seconds. Is there anything Israel could

do that would lose your support? >> Listen, if they're talking about using nuclear weapons, I I would they would

definitely lose my support. I've never heard them take say that, though. >> Dr. Elsa, you have opposed direct US

military funding to Israel. >> But if Israel were attacked tomorrow by Iran or another state actor, would you

vote to provide defensive weapons necessary to protect the Israeli people? Yes or no? And you have 60 seconds to

explain. >> I've been absolutely clear. I want our tax dollars spent here to provide

schools here. And by here, I mean Michigan, Florida. I want to make sure we've got good schools here and

healthcare here. I want to make sure that we are taking care of people here. That is my priority. You know, you asked

the hypothetical question about being attacked by Iran, but let's be honest about what happened here. Israel has

pushed us to go to war in Iran. And of course, my colleague who thinks there's a war for everything went right along

with it. And here we are. Israel had clear war aims. They wanted us to go to war with them and their war aims were

what? The annexation of southern Lebanon. Ask yourself, are we safer because of that war? He wants

unconditional support for a foreign government. I want unconditional support for kids in our schools, unconditional

support for our healthcare, childare, things that he would vote to defund. So, it's just inconsistent to me to be

running for Senate from Michigan when you're more focused on what's happening to a foreign government than you are

focused on what's happening to folks right here in Michigan. It's just it's just not serious.

>> Uh if there was attack, would you provide defensive weapons for Israel? >> I don't want our tax dollars buying

weapons for other countries. I don't know what's so hard about that. >> That's a no.

>> I'll answer the question. Absolutely. He won't. >> He will not. Matter of fact, he would

not even support foreign government. >> He wouldn't even support. >> We cannot do this for every question.

>> Dr. Sad. Our next question addresses concerns from some in the Jewish comm community about your position on Israel.

A supporter told News Nation's Leland Vidder at a rally that Israel is a bigger problem, a bigger threat I should

say, to the United States than Iran. Leland then asked you which country you consider the greater

threat to the United States. And here's part of your response. >> You're going to be a senator. What do

you view as the biggest threat? >> I've been more than extremely clear about this. I don't want our tax dollars

being used to subsidize war abroad. I don't want our tax dollars being used to fund unconditionally foreign militaries.

I think it's important that we be the first among equals to enforce international law against any and every

country that breaks it. So this this sort of like hypothetical who's a bigger threat is a dumb question. I'm sorry,

>> Dr. Elsad. We didn't quite we got the part that you thought it was dumb, but we didn't understand or kind of get to

that answer. So I'm going to ask you again tonight. Who do you think's a bigger threat to the United States,

Israel or Iran? You have 60 seconds. >> And again, Rick, I'm just going to say that that's a ridiculous hypothetical

because here's what's happening right now. Our ostensible ally in Israel has lobbyed us to go to war with Iran. We

have watched as Iran has responded by bombing all kinds of countries in the Middle East and then choking off the

world's energy supply. So, this is a situation in which I don't think we should be a part. I don't want to be

pushed into war by Israel and I don't want to be in a war with Iran. I want our money spent here to buy schools and

health care and child care here. I don't understand why that is so inconceivable. Now, I've got a guy to my left over here

who thinks that the best use of our money is to go fight wars abroad. What has that given us? It's part of the

reason why while he was in Congress, $12 trillion the national debt blew up because he's never seen a war he didn't

want us fighting. So, I don't consider an ally a country that takes us to wars we don't need to fight. And I don't want

to be fighting wars we don't need to fight. I just think that makes both of them kind of dangerous.

>> I'll ask one last time, Israel or Iran? >> That's a again a ridiculous question. I think both of them have proven dangerous

in their own way. One at risk of attacking us, one getting us into wars we have no business fighting.

>> Thank you, Congressman Rogers. Axios reported that your allies asked Apac not to advertise on your behalf and Axios

also reported that you talked with the chair of Apac and the next day they discontinued an ad on your behalf. Do

you welcome Apac's public support given that you do support many pro-Israeli positions. You have 60 seconds. Anybody

that wants to help my campaign stop a guy who can't condemn terrorism in our own country because he's so close to the

people who are supporting the Muslim Brotherhood. I'll take all of that help. >> And matter of fact, I I think he's a

little concerned about the two properties he owns, United Arab Emirates. I think the other one is Egypt

if I'm not mistaken. Can you correct me? Where where's the other one? >> Yeah. No.

>> Uhhuh. Yeah, that's exactly right. He does >> $2.7 million in Florida, my guy.

>> Yeah, I'll talk. You know what? Did you sell your yachts? I'd never owned a yacht in Florida, brother.

>> Oh, really? You had two of them? >> Let me tell you this one thing. >> Today or yesterday was October 7th. This

is why you should get absolutely angry. He could not bring himself to even acknowledge the pain, the terrorism, the

rape, the murders, cutting off of women's breasts, putting children in ovens and killing them in front of their

families. Could not even muster. >> So, I've he could not even muster. >> I've condemned that. I didn't turn it

into political theater like you just did. >> He did not respond to that. I just need

to respect I just I'm not somebody who tries to make political theater out of other

people's pain. I give people political theater including putting on a white jacket.

Gentlemen, gentlemen, >> we're going to take a break from this pleasant conversation and when we come

back, we're going to talk about a topic that has been making headlines across the country with data centers. First, a

reminder, candidates, enter the spin room once our debate is over. This QR code will take you to our live post

debate coverage. We'll be back in 70 seconds. Welcome back to everyone watching across

the country and News Nation and we welcome the candidates back. I want to take a quick aside and tell you that in

30 years of doing debates, I've never seen it continue during the commercial, but it did. Let's get right to our next

question. Data centers are becoming a flash point for voters across Michigan. And that's the topic of our next

question. Congressman Rogers, you said Michigan should quote take a pause probably on new data center development

and have supported one-year statewide moratorum that places you at odds with President Trump who has tried to

accelerate AI and data center development. Is a one-year pause long enough? You have 60 seconds.

>> Well, I think you have to get some really important questions answered. It needs to be a local decision. They need

to have water uh control systems that you're not using more and more water. They need to show up with their power.

I've said that they should also 100% of every uh dollar if a community wants one of these facilities, every every dollar

of the generated property tax should go to defay the cost of everyone that lives in that municipality. Dollar for dollar,

it should go down. There's just so many questions that people need answered. You can't this. I think you need that time

to answer those questions. If people go forward and want one, there might be a way to get this done. I will tell you

that my opponent here uh who likes to attack and make lots of uh you know accusation is actually invested into the

data centers. He's got $100,000 in a mutual fund directly invested in the companies uh that do data centers. So,

it's really important that we have this pause, answer people's questions, and make sure a guy like this isn't making

the decision on this. >> Thank you, Cong Congressman. Dr. Elsa, you have called for public control of AI

companies. Why should the federal government have an ownership or governing role in

private AI? And you can respond to the congressman's comments as well. You have 60 seconds.

>> What a joke. I mean, I own mutual funds. He's personally invested in the company in the company that controls the real

estate for the Selen data center and and I think I I should ask him if he wants a moratorium should the construction stop

on his personal investment because I'd love it to. >> I've been clear we need a terms of

engagement. I've been clear that we need government that's not bought off by corporations, not bought off by big

tech, not bought off by the very people who benefit, who have personal investment stake in the companies that

are driving us to the edge of what the people who are developing this technology say could cause real doom,

real harm. And look, I think we need people who actually understand the technology. I've been very clear we need

a terms of engagement on the data centers. I've been very clear that we need to put AI under democracy. And if

the corporations and their CEOs are right that this is going to take nearly 50% of our white collar jobs, I think

it's important for the public to have a real stake rather than private investors to the tune of $2.6 million in the data

center put in your backyard alone. >> I'm going to go to you for 30 seconds. I'm going to go [clears throat] to you

for 30 seconds and then we're going to move on. >> So this to me is the most important

thing. You know, rapid accusations and other things. He had a top staffer flee his campaign talking about how this

guy's a manufactured candidate. He watched him say one thing to one group and say another thing to another group.

This guy is so f full of hypocrisy. Uh it's just hard to fathom when he starts going through these things and rattles

them off. What he's basically telling you is he will say anything to win. And by the way, that's what his sister said

to him. He would say anything he needed to say and this is all this nonsense that he Mike

>> you done. You could have showed up to the last debate if you actually had things to say.

>> You could have the third debate turned down. >> Let's be clear. So you've got a

situation in which this guy personally invested in AI doesn't want to talk about AI. Instead he just wants to point

to me. But remember what I told you at the very outset. He wants to talk about himself. He wants to talk about me. But

he doesn't want to talk about you. >> You who are worried about having a data center in your backyard. You who are

worried about AI taking your job. You who are worried about the doom of AI, he does not want to talk about you because

the policies being pressed are the ones from Donald Trump and he will not stand up to Donald Trump. Notice Trump saying

no breaks on AI even though we know it's risky. He won't say a thing. >> All right. What I want to talk about is

sticking with the next question, technology for a moment, flock cameras and other information devices have many

people worried about privacy. Should the federal government put guard rails on these cameras? Dr. Elsad, you have 60

seconds to answer this. >> Yes, absolutely. But I just Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think the idea

of being surveiled wherever you are without your consent is a very dangerous thing. Now, Mike is going to have a hard

time answering this question. I cannot wait to see what he has to say because when he was in Congress, he literally

told somebody from the stand, "If you don't know your privacy is being violated, is your privacy really being

violated?" It's like the peeping tom vote he's going after everywhere. And I'm sure you want it. The question to me

is why do we continue to have a situation in which we're watching more and more technology steal more and more

of our data. The very big tech corporations that are buying his campaigns, all those attack ads, you're

seeing big tech and big pharma. But the big tech part is really scary because you don't know what they have on you.

And he said, again, another quote, "We would love to have just a bit of what Google has on you." Can you imagine

that? That guy right there. That's what he said. I don't think we should be surveilling people. I think it's a

ridiculous thing. And yes, I think when people uh have their privacy violated, yeah, you really did have your privacy

violated even if you didn't know it. >> Congressman, same question. Should the federal government put guard rails on

this technology? You have >> local government needs to do this. I'm a big believer in the Fourth Amendment uh

score that oath to the Constitution when I was an FBI agent. Protecting Fourth Amendment uh rights is critically

important. I think the states can do it. If they're just using it for citizens who have committed no crimes, I would

not be for that at all. And you know, my opponent just doesn't understand the national security infrastructure. So,

he's trying to jumble it all up on people. But I will tell you this, those pro those programs were really, really

important in catching people who were suspected of terrorists and being terrorist uh committing a terrorist act.

>> That's really, really important. And why would that bother you? Well, if you have someone in your family that might be on

the watch. >> Are you gonna go ahead and say that I'm I'm a Go ahead and say it.

>> No, I'm gonna say Did you not have You've been tiptoing around the whole time. Just say it. Say it. Go ahead and

say Do you know why? Do you know why? Because of your policies. Because of your policies that that literally use

surveillance use surveillance. >> So, I'm just saying something. Go ahead. >> No. No. Well, let's do this. Let's Let's

open up this can of worms. >> I'll give her I'll tell you what my mother did. She was a a a small

>> uh >> You going after my mom? >> I'm not going after your mom. What your

mom was working at, I was going after that organization that was indicted for funneling money to al-Qaeda. That's your

mom. My mom worked at a lawm. I'll put my mom up any day for that. >> All right, we'll give you a rebuttal and

we're moving away from this subject. >> He wants this to be about anything but his own record.

>> He's okay if the federal government can't talk about the federal government spies on you,

>> but he wants to make this about anybody else. is going after my mom, my sister. Got nothing to actual say about me. I'm

a dad and a doctor. I'm trying to get money out of politics, put money in your pocket, pass Medicare for all. He wants

to take every corporate dollar he can to jump for >> We have another viewer question. Amber

Krisa is back with that question. >> Our next question is from William Bush. His focus is on social security and

whether it will still exist. If you are elected, the Social Security trust fund is predicted to become

insolvent during your term in office. There's no more kicking the can down the road. Can you please tell me two

specific things you intend to propose or support in order to keep the program solvent?

>> We thank him for that question. We're going to put a little finer point on it. Knowing that social security uh is going

to be in trouble and it's a safety net for so many people, I'm going to give you some choices. You may come up with

your own, but which alternative would you propose? Higher payroll taxes, taking the cap off, eliminating the cap

on income, a higher retirement age, or lower scheduled benefits? You have 60 seconds.

>> Well, I think there's probably more options than that. I I will tell you this. My family counts on social

security. I had a brother that was uh disabled on disabled uh social security really really important for their

family. My parents counted on it for their retirement. My in-laws are currently counting on social security.

We cannot What's happened is a scheduled 22% cut in 2032. Cannot let that happen. I think this has to be a bipartisan

solution. I'd propose that committee uh put them in a room, lock the doors, and say, "Don't come out until we have a

real solution that can get bipartisan support." The other thing, and I tried this early on in my congressional

career, to say any money that the federal government borrows out of the Social Security fund, which I think is

wrong, has to get paid back first at the next fiscal year. And what that would do is start to measure and tamp down other

spending at the expense of Social Security. >> Dr. Elsad, same thing. What alternative

would would you propose to support to close that gap? Higher payroll taxes, eliminating uh the the income cap, a

higher retirement age, or lower scheduled benefits. You have 60 seconds. >> I think the answer is obvious here. We

we should eliminate the cap, right? It's only fair that the rich should pay their fair share. People need and deserve

social security. I'll take one step further. I think it's ridiculous that you get social security taken off your

paycheck every single month only to have to pay taxes on social security once it actually kicks in. I think we need to

eliminate that tax. And the reality of it is that Republicans, MAGA, all the eras, whether it was the neocon era that

he was a part of or the MAGA era that he wants to be a part of, they've been against social security for a long time.

Donald Trump has said very clearly that he does not believe that this is sustainable or should be something that

we continue to invest. instead he wants money for wars that people like Mike Rogers are perfectly happy to go and

fight. So look, I I think that this is a critical thing. We have to get at it. I actually think though that the question

for us is this. Do you elect a US senator in Michigan who wants to fight the Trump agenda or do you elect a US

senator in Michigan who literally said that he answered the call from Donald Trump and is therefore running? Who is

going to actually get to to work to save social security? >> To another topic now. You both say

Michigan needs substantially more housing. Your approaches are different. Dr. Elsad, you say America needs a

building boom, but you additionally want government action against large corporate investors and speculators

buying housing. What type of action do you want to see happen in Congress towards this 60 seconds?

>> Yeah, I just don't think big corporations should be able to buy housing and speculate on it. I don't

think that that is legit. It takes housing stock off the market and creates a situation in which it increases the

price of housing for folks who would be firsttime home owners. I also think we just need to build a whole lot more. We

need to address a lot of the red tape that has made it very difficult uh for folks to get those projects zoned and

licensed. But I also want to take on Airbnb and Verbbo. Um, you know, I don't know what Mike intends to do uh with his

house in Florida, but you know, he said that he wants to rent it out Airbnb and Verbbo this thing. So, look,

what Airbnb and Verbbo has done is allowed very rich people to buy excess housing and then rent it on a market

that artificially inflates the price of housing for everybody else. And I just think that we need to make sure that

Airbnb and Verbbo pay their fair share. I also think we need a renters's bill of rights to enable renters to have those

rights in case he decides to rent to somebody and decides to be a slum landlord. So, I just think it's

important to put to put basic uh uh curbing on the power of big corporations in our lives.

>> Congressman, your housing message is quote, "Train more builders and fire more bureaucrats." I want you to explain

that. And also, would you support prohibiting large investment firms and of buying thousands of single family

homes? You have 60 seconds. >> Yeah. This whole affordability issue is absolutely critical to answer this

problem. Uh, if you go to stopabdul.com, you can see all of the costs that my opponent has talked about. He deleted it

all. He didn't want you to see it. We found it. News for you. You can see it at stopabdul.com.

You can see the exact cost he's trying to impose. So, the last eight years, we've had about $25,000 in new

regulatory costs for every house. For every thousand dollars you increase the value of that h or the cost of that

house, uh 3,200 Michigan citizens can't afford that house. We have to tamp down on those regulatory environments. You

know, I I did the education savings plans for Michigan. About 400,000 people enjoying those plans here in the state

today. Uh and what we want to do is I want to make sure that they have the same kind of thing for new homeowners to

save taxfree. Have your boss kick in taxree. uh have your grandma ticket uh kick in taxfree. So you get to that 20%.

You do that, you reduce the regulation, you re uh increase the ability for them to be able to afford that down payment.

It gets people into the house. >> We're going to move on to a subject that we could have talked about for the last

40 years, although the number keeps getting higher, and that's the federal debt. It's now more than 40 trillion

dollar. Interest rates are high. investigate uh investors are issuing warnings and firsttime home buyers are

having a hard time getting into the market. Congressman Rogers, can you tell voters one significant spending cut or

tax change or entitlement reform that you would support even if it's politically unpopular to start reducing

that debt? You have 60 seconds. >> So I was the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee in the United

States Congress at the time of Iraq and Afghanistan. At that time, Russia was trying to get nuclear submar uh excuse

me, torpedoes. China was going after us in space. It was pretty precarious time for the country. I took a look at that

budget. I worked in a bipartisan way with my ranking Democrat. We sat down over the course of the summer and we cut

out $1 billion of a $78 billion budget. That just wasn't done back then. It was never done. Then we made sure that that

money didn't get added in in the six years that followed that bal that our cut in that budget. I think there is fat

and waste in every department and I put the uh Department of Defense in there as well. I think if you go after the fraud

that the fraud numbers now are about $500 billion dollars and you go after waste in each one of these departments

like I have done in a bipartisan way, I think you can get that math down to a good place pretty quickly.

>> Dr. Elsad, it seems something has to change. Can you point to a significant spending cut or entitlement reform or

tax change that you would support even if it's not politically popular? You have 60 seconds. Tax billionaire wealth.

It's that simple. We could return $4.6 trillion simply by taxing billionaires. Look, I I don't know about anybody. He's

going to get precious about billionaires here in a second. But yeah, I don't think it's important for a billionaire

to make a second billion. I think it's more important for the average person to be able to make their first hundred,000.

If you could think about what you could do with $4.6 trillion dollar back to our federal budget, think about what it

would mean for things like health care, things like child care. And the reality of it is that while my colleague was in

Congress for 14 years, they acrewed a 12 trillion deficit, $12 trillion. The 40 trillion we have, 12 trillion alone came

while he was in Congress. So, he's going to talk a big game about balancing budgets. It didn't really quite do that,

did we? Why? because every time his party's in power, we do two things. We cut taxes for the richest people or and

we go to war. And that's exactly what Donald Trump has just done with the one big ugly bill and the Iran war. And he's

backs stopped the entire thing. So, what do you think you're going to get with him? More deficit, more debt, only to

tell us we can't have healthcare. >> I'll give you 30 seconds. >> Yeah, this is the guy. He just does not

want to explain what his proposals are. That's why he does this. Pretty tough. You learn that in Oxford, I guess, how

to talk pretty. But I will tell you what, uh, it's dangerous. They're going to take away your personal health care

and the new cost is $20,000 in new taxes per family. Oh, and by the way, you have to answer to the government. Oh, and by

the way, he supports the death panels that Canada implemented. Do you want the government making those decisions at a

more expensive cost and less access? So, well, I'm not done yet. >> You You are because we're at the end of

the show. We're going to run out of time. 30 seconds for you, Dr. >> Yeah. In case I wasn't clear, tax

billionaire wealth. Look, I I actually went to I learned that at Michigan where I actually went to school. I don't just

parade around in the black M. The reality of it is that we can do this. It's just math. More money in, less

money out. So ask yourself whether or not this war is good for you. This guy voted to keep prescription drug prices

high. He's enthralled to all the corporations that have nickeled and dime $64,000 alone from DTE. Not true. Not

true. >> Not we got to stay on time. We're now our final question. And here it is. We

have had a number of people ask questions from viewers and expressing concern about the divide between right

and left. So starting with you Dr. Elsa, who do you work for, can you name one Trump policy you would have voted for

because you believe it was right for Michigan? You have 60 seconds. >> I work for the people of the state of

Michigan. I have never taken a dime from a corporation to run a campaign. This guy took more money from corporate super

PACs than anybody in the Michigan delegation when he was in Congress. Called himself the champion of big

farmers. I don't work for them. I don't work for big insurance who's also bottom off. I don't work for big tech who's

bought them off. I don't work for DTE who's also bottom off. I work for the people. And I believe as such we have a

responsibility to work with anybody who is going to champion the issues that people have. Actually, that policy that

you asked me about, Rick, about the question of whether or not we should have corporate speculators buying

housing, that's something that Donald Trump seemed to agree with me with. Congressional stock trading, something

he's done. Also, Donald Trump agreed with me with I don't own personal stock. I'm not trying to make myself rich off

of my job in public service. This guy has done exactly that. $14 million. That's what he made when he left

Congress doing the work for the corporations he had just previously been regulating who had bought him off when

he was in Congress in the first place. >> We have to go 60 seconds. >> This is so offensive to me. This is

incredible and it is not the truth and you know it's not the truth. Like I said, interrupt. You're like that AI

chatbot that's a little glitchy. You just say it over and over and you make accusations for a guy that uh you did

it. >> No, I did not. Never. I never traded a stock.

>> $64,000. Did you or did you not take it? Gosh. Did you or did you not? >> So that means you're bought off by

George Ser's family. That means that you're bought off by Hamas, >> Hezbollah, al-Qaeda. Those people who

are supporting you, pour that money into your campaign. You begged Chuck Schumer. Begged Chuck Schumer. Matter of fact,

you had to sneak by the trash cans in the back of the building to beg for that money. So here's the guy that's saying

money out of politics until it gets to shove into his pocket. That tells you that tells you that absolutely tells you

who he is. >> The guy on his staff that said he will say anything to get elected and tell you

one thing one time and another the next time. He's a manufactured candidate. >> We've come to the end of our discussion.

Thank you both very much. You have 30 seconds to wrap up our debate beginning with you, Dr. Elsed. And you must stay

on time. 30 seconds. >> Look, I told you what this debate was going to be. him pointing at me and

saying all kinds of foreign names or him talking about himself. And I told you I'm interested in you. I understand that

gas is too expensive. Groceries are unaffordable. I understand that it's really hard to see a doctor. And I want

to solve that. And the reason we haven't is because we've got corporate politicians who are going to do the

bidding of people like Donald Trump. The war in Iran, the tariff war, all the money he's taken from pharma. Ask

yourself if that's helped you. I believe in money out of politics. Money in your pocket. Medicare for all.

>> 30 seconds. Congress. We cannot afford Abdul and we cannot risk his ideology. Think about what he's proposing. The

largest most massive tax increase in the history, taking over your private health insurance and giving it to the

government. Huge increases in your energy cost. That 30 30% alone uh in utilities. It's a carbon tax that

affects everything that you buy. I'm Mike Rogers, United States Army officer, FBI agent. Don't listen to this guy. I

will make and fight for a better Michigan. >> Thank you candidates. I appreciate you

being here. Thanks to NewsNation, our broadcast partners, and to all of you who are watching, don't forget to go to

Wood TV Plus for the spin room right now for more on tonight's debate, including reaction from the candidates. And the

final word is good night from Grand Rapids. >> Thank you. Good luck.