Consorting with Spirits: A Guide to Magical Engagement
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Introduction
Welcome back to Glitch Bottle! In today's episode, we dive into an intriguing topic: "How to Consort with Spirits" with expert Jason Miller. Magic is often viewed as a solitary art, yet building relationships with spirits can enrich your practice immensely. This article will explore the essential concepts from Jason Miller's latest book, "Consorting with Spirits," covering aspects such as the importance of locality and relationship in esoteric practices, different magical systems, and so much more.
What is Spirit Consorting?
Consorting with spirits is not just about evocation or summoning; it's about building ongoing relationships with the spiritual entities that you wish to engage with. Jason Miller emphasizes this through the mindful use of the term "consorting," which implies familiarity, respect, and an ongoing connection.
Why is the Term "Consorting" Important?
The choice of the word "consorting" reflects two meanings:
- Historical Context: In the 1600s, consorting with spirits could lead to imprisonment or death; it acknowledges the risks involved in magical practices.
- Cultivating Relationships: The term suggests a deeper relationship with spirits, akin to friendships rather than one-time encounters. This ongoing engagement is essential in effectively practicing magic.
Key Takeaway: True sorcery involves not just technique, but relationships. The more you invest in these relationships, the more empowered your magical practice will become.
The Importance of Locality in Sorcery
The Concept of Local Magic
According to Jason, the best sorcery is local, which means that it is enriched by your immediate environment and the spirits or energies present within it. Just like building relationships with people, getting to know the spirits proximal to you can create a more meaningful magical experience.
Comparison to Coffee: If you want a great latte, is it better to build a relationship with the barista at your local coffee shop or the CEO of Starbucks? The connection you create locally is often richer and more fulfilling.
Navigating Magical Systems
Jason illustrates how local engagement can contrast with the desire for universal systems of magic. Often, practitioners obsess over the grand schemes and systems—like communicating with high-ranking spirits—while neglecting the local entities that could offer more personal benefits.
The Role of Familiarity and Relationships
Building relationships with spirits can involve:
- Regular offerings or rituals focused on local spirits
- Engaging with spirits of your culture or ancestry
- Being receptive to the nuances of living in your community
Understanding Different Magical Traditions
Jason awcully structures his magical approach around three key traditions: Christianity, Paganism, and Luciferianism. Each tradition offers various frameworks for spirit communication and conjuration.
Christian Paradigms
In this tradition, evocation often invokes a Judeo-Christian context, tying spirits to divine authority. The engagement may sometimes highlight the dangers inherent in calling forth spirits who possess their own autonomy.
Pagan Approaches
Pagan traditions allow for a different interpretation of spirits—often focusing on nature, earth, and local deities, enriching the practitioner's ability to manifest desires through a more personal lens.
Luciferianism
Luciferian perspectives often prioritize understanding the self and embracing complexity within magical practice. Understanding how these traditions interweave will help enrich personal experiences within magic.
Models of Engagement with Spirits
Jason critiques traditional models for understanding spirits—suggesting instead a "mega model" that incorporates various perspectives (psychological, information-based, energetic, and spiritual models).
What is a Mega Model?
The mega model eschews a singular understanding of spirits in favor of a framework that acknowledges:
- Complex interactions between belief systems
- The influence of personal perception in encounters
- The nuances of different magical systems behind each interaction
Resonance in Magical Experience
Miller also emphasizes the significance of magical resonance. Instead of expecting full manifestations, practitioners should recognize that simple resonance is often the most common form of spirit interaction.
- What is Magical Resonance?: It's the subtler forms of communication and influence that spirits exert in our lives, often manifesting as intuition or emotions related to the spirit's characteristics.
Transforming the Practice of Magic
Practical Engagement with Spirits
As practitioners delve deeper into magic, maintaining discernment is essential. People often report grand experiences, yet it can lead beginners off course if they measure their journeys against others' testimonials. Jason encourages:
- Listening and Engagement: Allow the spirit to communicate its messages rather than overwhelming the connection through fear or doubt.
- Experiments and Evaluations: Approach rituals as experiments—if they yield results, take notes and refine your methods, no matter how subtle the outcomes.
Integrating Spiritual Guidance
Connecting with spirits can feel abstract, yet Jason emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the messages from your own intuition alongside their communication. Individuals should learn to differentiate between what resonates personally versus what might stem from external influence.
Conclusion
In this exploration of "Consorting with Spirits," Jason Miller reveals the intricacies of engaging with the unseen world. Whether through local spirits, understanding different magical traditions, or recognizing the subtleties of interactions, the key takeaway is that deeper relationships can empower practitioners in their magical pursuits. Fostering a growing connection and being receptive to the influences around you can lead to profound experiences and successfully navigate your journey in the esoteric arts.
uncork the uncommon in magic mysticism and the generally misunderstood i'm your host alexander f and today we are so
excited to discuss how to consort with spirits with practicing magician author and strategic sorcerer jason miller and
relationship with a spirit what are the different models of esoteric engagement when is something like friendly
conjuration called for versus a stronger approach in ritual well jason miller is one of the best people to ask on these
more in incredible depth and so jason today is returning on the podcast to go deep into magical systems deepening
connections with spirits what a relationship actually means and also jason is answering your amazing glitch
bottle patreon listener questions so thanks to each and every patron of the podcast for asking jason so many awesome
to studying magical practice and engagement in so many forms and he's the author of several other tones of magical
insight as well including protection and reversal magic financial sorcery and so many others and so now to
help us uncork the uncommon let's welcome jason miller jason thank you so much for again returning on the
podcast really appreciate your time oh thank you for having me i it's a pleasure thank you so much for having me
try not to speak for the listeners but i'm sure they feel the same way uh and your latest tome jason is called
consorting with the spirits um and one of the first things that you stress about this book is
how intentional you are with the title and specifically the use of the word consorting can you can you
pick a title and it probably shouldn't have but you know uh early on i just said you guys handle
it's got a dual meaning so first it is the title of a crime that you could have been charged with in england in the
but at the same time we also know from recipe books and and manuals that people were consorting with spirits um
so it was important it it's it's they they took that risk and that's something that
completely safe nothing is ever completely safe so it's risky uh the other aspect to this is that
consorting implies an ongoing relationship right like like if you meet someone disreputable right like if
you meet tony soprano you're not consorting with the mob you've just you know you've met
a mobster if however you're hanging out at the you know at the italian butcher where the
guys all hang out and you know them all on first name basis because you're there all the time
dictionary they also add this little bit of you know an ongoing relationship with disreputable people or or beings that
something that society frowns upon and you're not just doing it once you're building
a life around it you're integrating this into who you are and your life and your relationships and those relationships
are really important they're kind of what separate the real witches magician sorcerers from
the folks that are like i'm gonna crack open a book and take a stab at this so thus consorting with spirits and two
jason you know you mentioned that exactly there's this kind of risk aversion that's going on and it's been
going on for years i know you know i went years ago when i first picked up grimoires i was thinking oh
well let me just calculate everything perfectly until i can jump in and just how how detrimental that is and you
mentioned in the book as well that when it comes down to it the best sorcery is local and can you
just talk about that word local and just what that means in this context especially since as you touched on in
today's day and age so many people are obsessed with having kind of universal systems of magic that everything fits
have a can you know to occasionally tip your ups fedex guy um so it's local it's you know it's it's
so the best of all worlds is to carry the authority that comes with having that connection at the top
but also having a friendly relationship at the bottom too many people are just concerned with
the top with the big names and for the longest time i remember the first time i ever let a spirit feast
flies in the face of that anti-spiritualist stance that we ceremonial magicians have like you're
just getting anything you know you're you're you're making contact with whatever is around the corner
like let let's really seriously think about this instead of just repeating the old chestnut over and over
and let's use people as an example i i could have easily called this book it's just like with people because every
do you buy a who's who and only ever allow yourself to contact the most important people the most well-known
if you you know crack open the books of the well-known spirits they're not safe like there's nothing
safe about these some of them are quite dangerous and even the angels are not terribly safe
around the corner that could lie to you anything can lie like any you know you've got there's no
could be that the choirs of angels under the archangel or the legions of demons under the the well-known you know demon
with a office and a title um or it could be what i call the mall santa phenomenal right which is like a
local being who is more manifest this is really what we're talking about like well-known gods like jupiter
not like you can't point to them in a room you when you invoke them you feel their presence but you really have to
right it's it's a that's like full forceful evocation and often not comfortable right
is pretty simple like by the time kids are four or five they realize that the guy at the mall
isn't santa he works for santa right like santa's of course real kids so the guy at the mall works for santa
which is why he looks different in every mall and you know they know santa's busy with managing the elves and everything
so they tell they treat him like he's santa they tell him what they want and then at night he delivers the message up
to the big guy i think this was played out really well by macaulay culkin and home alone where
he corners the the santa after the fact is like getting into his car um but yeah that you know sometimes
that's exactly what you're dealing with and this is i would you know when i was writing the
book i was bouncing some ideas around with bj swain and he's like you know this is really actually a
and that's such a refreshing perspective because it really challenges you to look in your situation and your environment
and in the rituals that you're engaged in and what i love about that too jason in your book consorting with spirits is
against this backdrop of locality and relationship and consorting you frame most most of the rituals in the book as
and luciferianism can you share with the listeners especially someone like yourself who you know you've you've
at the at the moment especially when we're talking about conjuring right when we're talking about
the power that you're drawing the authority from you have to think of it in relation to
cool they're they're just [ __ ] they're really awesome kind of the same way that like you know the way the seal
just it looks cooler than the seal of lucifer in europe it's easier to draw it's more geometrical it's a good logo
the other one just kind of sucks so whether you think that lucifer took this and is like actually that's the
real one that i hid in there or if lucifer was like hey i like that one let's go with it you know you you humans
came up with it let's roll with that one or if people were just like it just looks cooler
and so it's now blossomed into the thing but you got to think about how those spirits are in relation
so traditional grimoire work you're approaching it through a christian lens right you're you're
so what are you doing you're using the opposing army you're using the antagonistic army the one that's like
i'm i'm getting the enemy who i am i you know i am ruling over because i've won the battle
uh and i'm forcing them to appear right like i'm i am i am calling them by these powers
under those powers and then once you change those powers out maybe those seals don't work the same or at all
you know sometimes there's i'm not a left-hand path person there's some corners of that world that i really
and solid thinking in in some ways so uh let's take a look at that and then okay well how does it work because now
we're not calling upon that spirit with the opposing army we're talking to the boss like
so the conjuration has to change a little bit you can't just rip the names out and throw the new names in
worldview entirely there is no god there is no devil there's just these spirits and let's conjure them under the power
you know hecate works her way in to christian demonology certainly a lot of what we know about later hecate and
could also model how some other pagan relation figure that you have a relationship might work
so now the whole thing is different maybe the circle is different maybe we're not calling the four kings anymore
those four kings aren't don't necessarily respond with hecate at the center in the same way
attitude like all you really need to do is just rip out the names you don't like and throw in the names you do like
and it's not really that way because there's more to it than that like these are well constructed
uh and this is true for everything you know one of the things that that i've i've always been flummoxed by with um
your rituals so why do you even care about that like it doesn't matter and do you because you're
right like it's it's irrelevant in that context so um people need to figure out the
as you mentioned you have these various tributaries and sometimes people can get tangled by
focusing perhaps a little bit too much on the model of spirits and you tell you know this has been going on for years
the psychological model versus the spirit based model versus the energy model the resonance model and you may
um it's it's funny because i've been saying this for like over a decade since since back when the
somewhere probably around the time that we started messing around with radio and uh and electricity
we started to think oh well maybe energy is how magic works but also if we start to look at
translators were already using energy for a lot of the functions of spirits in eastern models
body that get filled up with a rain of energy it sounds like something drunvalo melchizedek pulled out of his butt but
really it's i mean this is this that practice is a purification ritual from nuguma is over a thousand years old
and then you've got around again the time of psychoanalysis and and young and whatnot the mind model
much more sciencey than spirits right it's it's much much less superstitious than spirits
and so we have this idea that well it's maybe it's not your mind it's just that there's
this really nicely that that the information model is talking to the universe in a way that the universe
it's also not just what you think about it because i have met people who've done the wrong hexagram and accidentally
beyond the personal mind but within the tradition that they're working in so the stream of information
so what what fredo ud says is he's like you know well we've got these four different
because everybody that is able to work magic with them so what we need and uh you know in his mind and in the mind of
so it's it's like you know all magic is in a quantum state like trenders cat until you decide on the model and then
and i was like well it's sort of a brilliant breakdown of of four ways that magic works and then when you get to the
meta the whole thing just becomes incredibly stupid in the way that if we get into a car and
i'm like well i believe that the car runs on gasoline and you believe that the car runs on electricity
well then really what's happening is the car runs on that thing based upon who is driving right like that's the meta model
each have a different purpose and so if you look at these four models of magic and you stop treating
things spirits behave in ways that are not expected or can do things that clearly are not just part of your mind
what spirits tell people winds up being like okay you know the spirit said to lift my foot and close my left eye to
shift bodily energy or you know when their their hands get hot or when they're focusing
they find that their focus affects a conjuration or a spell um or why is it that sympathetic magic
you know why do does the venetian textbook exist where you're doing essentially folk magic but with the
and your energy and your focus into it and then you're doing some kind of sympathetic magic like dropping coins
because or for that matter for even just spirits to work because the the thing is all of our models
magic doesn't get challenged in the way that physical findings do we just basically decide to believe
there's nothing less sciencey than things that are done with the methods of science but the aim of religion like
i've never seen worse science in my life jason you bring up such a fascinating point in terms of of recognizing that
you need to break some of these long-held habits long-held paradigms and one of those things and we've discussed
a manifestation to full visible appearance and i'm taking one side of the spectrum you know just to make a
commonplace manifestation of a spirit's influence in your life it accounts you say for probably 80 of
magic even in some classical grimoires that focus on making spirits appear active resonance is all that is sought
they've been practicing for years or if they're just starting out sure so you know i mean sometimes
but i think sometimes the people that are just out there because like they've decided that they're solomonic
or or whatever their grimoire is and they're walking around like musashi to prove that they're the best and
everything else sucks and like they don't they don't even pay attention to the fact that well you know
there's natural magic um that's explained in those very books and sympathetic that magic that's given
in most of those books you go through this long ceremony and you're you are getting this
face-to-face full appearance and what is the first thing that you do you want to set up something easier so
magician could do in a few minutes or or a route worker could do without you know yeah let's just make this
it's it's weary it's it's you know the spirits everything we know from historical records the spirits
so why do we think that this is the best like why are we breaking reality for ordinary crap
um and so what is resonance resonance is when you're doing some kind of magic and you attract the power of the spirit
you you've you've attracted maybe not even the full attention of the spirit you've just
set up a resonance with that spirit in a way that brings its power into whatever you're doing
through a song through you know and the thing is the killer is the evocations themselves as acts of
magic i mean the calls of conjuration are themselves done through resonance right like if you are calling
and he then says go forth in faith but the scripture is very clear he didn't stop and then like i now heal you no it
was all automatic resonance like she just grabbed the hem of his garment so you know if you are
prayers or through evocations or through chanting and get that resonance and then what what
unfortunately what people kind of with that like one trick pony view of evocation see is like oh this idiot
thinks he can just call the name of the archangel and it's the same as my intense ceremonially well no he doesn't
think it's the same you just think that's the only way magic can happen and you're wrong
so it's um yeah so you've got resonance you've got full evocation and you've got other
things in between when people visualize the archangels and then call upon the archangels to
take up resonance in those visualizations that's not an evocation the i don't even think the
archangels are in any way like consciously aware of it happening but your the strength of your
the the the power the energy perhaps when when people chant the name and they feel that bodily response of energy it's
like tai chi uh so there's a bodily energy there that that's fed into it and then that
attracts the resonance and so there's all these levels of manifestation that spirits can make
any given situation i mean certainly the most intense way to contact me is to like walk up to me in the street and say
hi are you jason i you know but if i don't know who you are my answer is no you have the wrong person
unless i'm alone or something like that but but like if i'm out with family or something i'm
the best the best is the best that's that's wonderful advice and speaking of that jason you mentioned
just broadly speaking that there are two kind of main groups of people out there and many listeners might find themselves
in one group or in another or somewhere in between and you mentioned that there are those who are prone to psychic
experiences after a ritual they report everything during a ritual maybe with scrying and there are those who are not
prone to psychic experiences or those direct feedback experiences during ritual and you mentioned that
both of those groups have work to do uh in various areas so if someone's listening and they might
find themselves in one of those groups what is the work for each group that you'd recommend that they take a look at
they have some modest spiritual experiences right like they do a spell and the spell works out and they you
then they felt a response but they didn't have a conversation that was like up to their standards and then they get
papa legba three times and then papa legba showed up and told me that i am you know his child and that i should go
fantasmagoric shows every time they close their eyes and i'm one of those people that that
like i you know i do a piece of magic i'll get something right um and that at first when i was younger
that was like a badge of like yeah you know i i can walk away if i'm at an open circle um and then we everyone's sharing
i'm gonna have something to share because i i definitely saw some but here's the thing
even watching this podcast is a mixture of projection and perception like you're perceiving it
um and every experience you've ever had is a mix of this the moment that it's passed
you've you've projected all kinds of stuff onto it well subtle experiences not surprising
your work is to cut through those easy to get surface level things where maybe there's a spark of a spirit
was there anything here that's for me to do that's useful and that makes any kind of sense or at least isn't terribly
it as false it's you don't have to judge it at all because it's irrelevant just let it go
just don't make it a thing it's a thing that happened the most powerful things that a magician can
learn are the phrase is well that happened because you don't have to do anything with it it's just it was a
don't need to boost your ego you don't need to think that you're great you don't need to think that you're bad it
now on the other side of the coin uh people that are that are head blind or they they are trump have trouble with
experiences there's a bunch of different spirit skills in the book and then there's a bunch of different things
but some of the like some of the best things to do are are two things that you can just integrate into your regular
about letting the mind be because that's when you build connections right that's when you build
connections in the mind it's when you are open when you can receive things so adding a little bit of that time and
space builds those muscles and unfortunately in 2007 we killed what little idle time we had left with
cell phones with smartphones right like we no longer even are bored waiting in line for something we we've got
something to occupy every moment of every day and it's not good for you and as a as a person who wants to talk to
the other thing that i would say is cut yourself a little break and learn to do what the other folks do like
if you get and i like let's say that you've evoked i don't know you know malphos
are headlined think that was just my mind because i know somewhere that malfoss is associated
with birds so i that's just a brain fart i'm going to sit and wait until malthus really shows up
and like grabs me by the nuts in a way that i can't deny well unfortunately that bird might have been malfus going
the physical and i'm trying to get through to you and i got this little bit through and you said [ __ ] off
with with self critique engage in it while it's going um and here's the beauty let's say that
and uh in some way shape or form that that helps you say frame or think differently about an issue that's vexing
or or even an idea for a spell right like a thing to do with malthus's seal for instance
uh for me a lot of the spirits of the ars croatia one of the reasons i love working with them is that
it's like okay you've got this and then people will think well that's probably just me
um stop trying it's your it's like you're riding a bike that moment where you're riding and you
get any kind of momentum so there are all kinds of other spirit skill tricks and and and tips and
practices both little things you could do in the moment and long practices that build over time
like engaging imaginative play to lead you somewhere and shut down that critic in the moment
loosen the grip on your day-to-day reality be open be receptive and really it's about paying attention
one of the themes that you talk about and to that point jason we have many listener questions for you and one
of them is from uh patron alex brock art who is asking how prevalent jason or how often are
things like intuition feelings emotion or even ideas influenced by spirits and if so how can
one start to parse out what's in one's own mind versus the influence of the spirit is
there a reason jason most of society does not perceive spirits so we don't perceive so first of all we
you perceive spirits every day that are organized in physical bodies human animal trees everything else
ghosts and and nymphs and and so on and the reason is that they're organized not around physical bodies so they're
oriented our perception is oriented towards the physical their perception is oriented towards etheric or astral or
you know i i i was just having a conversation where somebody said you know it's funny that you make that you
under this is that and i'm like yes but i don't believe that one rules the other i don't believe that there's like a
perfection and then everything else is like degrees of suckage um so i don't like i just like i don't
think my bones are inherently better than my skin it's you know they're just they're layers
that ideas are spirits you know the the the genius the idea of the genius is the idea of a spirit
best modern explanations of it was from the book big magic by uh pray love elizabeth gilbert
she writes about how she had like this very very specific idea and then another writer had very
very specific idea at more or less the same time and there's no way they could have overlapped
um the movie 28 days later what this was written at around the same time that the comic book the grateful
the grateful ted the walking dead was written both of them start out with somebody waking up from a coma in a
zombie apocalypse they didn't know each other this was not an idea that was passed around
physical and you'll hear it like a physical voice and that's that's cool when it happens
idle time this is actually sitting focusing on breath or or some other single pointed focus
can and does if you continue with it but when people what i'm talking about is the stuff that
to the breath is re recognizing the texture of your own mind and taking control over it and going
what the fabric of your own thoughts is like it's actually very easy to start recognizing when something comes in
hope that the listeners appreciate that as much as i do because i know that was one of the things i struggled with early
on and that allowing yourself that forgiveness it's okay it's supposed to happen you're supposed to get distracted
you're supposed to learn about that and i think jason that meditation is one of the many
foundational aspects that you touch on in your book consorting with spirits that i think people you know will really
discuss and we have a listener question for you from patron tom mcarthur and tom is saying and asking
but you don't spend much time on it and suggest that it's okay to skip if need be on the other hand tom says jake
stratton kent and others stress it as an essential step of conjuration do you jason think an oath and confession
what's your experience jason of conjuring with versus without confession as part of a ritual
some of the physical things um in a in sort of a classical christian context where we might be setting up a
battle with a demon then of course you know if we know that we are you know our soul is clean then
but look around like that's always my thing like yeah i know that this is supposed to create
you know random people from the local church watcher kids like so it's it's it's that kind of thing
like i'm always like look around at what it really does in practice not what it's supposed to do
uh is recognize the world over and purification is but then there are energetic purifications so for instance
in uh in tantra and i'm i'm you know i'm guilty of taking a lot of things that i've learned in
tantra and applying them to the wider world of magic i don't even like the term western magic
because i'm always like like are we really just making this line between turkey and greece and pretending that
that are functional um and applying them to other magic which is functional because i'm more
concerned with authenticity of function than i am authenticity of tradition or history right like those are fine if
uh within tantra there are rituals that where you would confess and and you would you know you would list things
that that that you know are are val breakages and so on but then there are also rituals that
characteristics of confession and what must be confessed are liberated within their own place
it's the natural sound of of the you don't make it it's said to be the natural state
because if you just vibrate your vocal chords without making any other sounds with your mouth you get ah
where they visualize a deity above their heads and then they even more sublime deities above them and then they filter
filled up and you see the blackness pour out and and so on so there are energetic practices i do to sublimate uh and and
and i i'm not big into the fakes i always feel like more of a like a spirit would call me out on being
confession but but seriously i remember once i get this like email with like an old password from like that
i hadn't used in 10 years and it was like one of those extortion emails like this is your password we have videos of
you doing nasty things in front of your computer you know the idea being that you know i'm like
but you know i try not to do them and when i you know if i do have acted on them and paid the price and
revisiting those you know quote unquote more traditional tools we do have a listener question for you from patron
lucid thiems who is asking a quote fasting and purification are noted to be necessary for large
operations like an evocation but for general offering rituals do you think any sort of purity is needed
and that regular practice will contain purification elements and so in a way you are constantly in a
state of purifying so the whole model of magic of like hey i'm an ordinary guy doing ordinary
am interested in like you're a magician you're a witch or you're not there's like i don't teach part-time magic
uh a little weaker uh either physically or mentally when going in if you're not used to it so
on the one hand you might be more ready to receive but you might be less ready to handle something going wrong
like everything is has positives and negatives like so what what's better in this scenario
um but for a general offering where you're going outside and you know like every morning i offer some incense and
nah nothing nothing special but if you are preparing something for either a single spirit or a single group of
would want to do and i always say like look if you're having a party where you're inviting a bunch of people you
beef out they don't eat it they eat the vegan things but if you have a vegan over for dinner
and they're the only guests and you serve steak then you're an [ __ ] like it's just that simple
where spirits have in essence blurred the lines between magical systems for example sarah says
if you have spirits of ancestors helping open doors or smooth connections with spirits of an entirely different sort
see that's the thing that people lose the script on when they get hunkered down into these ideas of mutually
like these are the deities of a system and therefore they never ever could cross over to another system
like that's silly right like it's silly to think that way when in reality you could eat it both you don't need to do
any kind of paradigm shifting or or or or purification before you go from one for lunch or the other for dinner
like well everything is just whatever i think about it and so if i throw some like nails and herbs in a pot it's an
it's it's not neat it's not tidy so of course you know ancestors uh can help point you on your way
you know my parents bought me a copy of the red doorstop golden dawn when i was 18 because they knew i was into it and
you know hey here you go here's a nice expensive thing that you probably can't afford on your own and
that like magic is real and behaves like most real things view it as mechanistically as you can
had asked me after reading some books she's like do you have a mission statement and i said
sometimes and and it gets in the way you know jason to that very theme which which is so lovely that you're sketching
out to you know break the tight you know neat little boxes everything's so tidy we have two
listener questions for you that i think follow exactly what you brought up and the first is
uh from lucid themes who is asking could you jason share how your christian and western work feeds into your view of god
i'll be honest i don't really i don't have any beliefs about one or the other um so i've i've i have
and the hand wants to know what's useful like how does this help how does it fix something how does it build something
so many meaningful things aristotle's definition of friendship and plato's allegory of the cave things that we
framing and as intellectual tools and mental processes and then i think about the the questions
and god did they suck they were like wrong 100 of the time um and not only were they wrong about
plato says circles are perfect and we couldn't have a heliocentric universe because aristotle says that the
uh that things have spontaneously arisen because of an original cause of ignorance in in in a chain of
interdependent origination uh i would just say that you know the western eastern thing is not quite
correct because there's plenty of easterners who believe in in gods and plenty of westerners like
meister eckhart who and other contemplatives who have a pretty loose view that god might not be
what i am concerned with is what's next like where i i don't care about the final state even of
enlightenment or or salvation what's next what's the next step where what direction am i headed
what's the next step to get there uh what what next step opens me up to more possibilities
and that's really you know what i am concerned with we're it's like if we're on the east coast
we can sit and we can argue about what the west coast is like and we can develop theories and maps and
have made the trip and see what they have to say but then we might find a lot of what they had to
say was incorrect or you know especially if they did it a long time ago that they're using models that are not that
we have better models for now right yeah that's that's a really good point and and i know i believe you touched on
this in the past that it's it's embedded in the name or the term the occult it is hidden there should all no matter how
really try to answer questions of meaning or or you know and sometimes it touches it's useful
i always say look you know alan rick is it alan rickman can come down it as metatron and and
physically touch me and then break out a whiteboard and show me how exactly the map of heaven works and manifests into
okay and this is meaningful and and can help us improve and and comfort us or or give us tools to think better about the
and you know as well jason in terms of of of that of you know finding if it works keep doing it find out what's
useful and again not being afraid to as you say you know get rid of the tidy little boxes we have another listener
question for you from octavian graves and octavian is asking after creating a devotional relationship
with a deity like hikate could one jason invoke her either right before or during a traditional solomonic
evocation of a goetic spirit for added protection and are there other ways that hikate can be implemented into
traditional solomonic magic sure yeah um you know like i said it's been done before it's been done in the past um
and so yeah you you can invoke hikate as yet another power there does sort of get to be like a um
like at a certain point you reach like a saturation of like how much crap can we invoke and throw in here that's actually
those other powers but maybe not if it's just a matter of like well i've got it so i'm gonna throw at it then i'm
unless your view of christianity is such that like all other entities are demons and that must be destroyed then
obviously doing that would make no sense and as well jason uh you mentioned in the book that with all these different
traditions sometimes you know friendly conjuration is needed sometimes as you say maybe it's needed to be a little bit
bossy one thinks of the traditional uh grimoires and especially when it comes to things like a charge we have a
listener question for you from patron scott dilly who is asking and saying hello sir i have found that a
lot of spirit request has to do with the charge in other words have the charge carefully worded and with planetary or
hepatical spirits for example recited at the right time without deviation one reason scott says for this being that
the actual communion as far as i can tell mainly consists of something like a flicker of a candle a change of
temperature knocking birds flying by something happening in the moment but on the other hand scott says i also hear
advice to simply ask the spirits what other abilities they may have which entails a conversation to one's sensible
on the blurry line between the confirmation of a spirit's presence and the point of clear concise communion
the timing matters because you are using the system of either horror astrology or planetary hours and and
communicated that's the tool that you're using the information that you're going by
and this resonance right that's what the red you know you get even more than resonance you get a
that because ultimately even if you're setting it up like a full evocation you're doing a spell
the and that includes time after you've said your conjurations to to mentally reach out use some of the spirit skills
you know they they don't even like never mind the fact that their senses there can't scry to meet it there
i'm gonna read this conjuration and i've read the conjuration for 10 minutes and now i stop
no spirit okay next stop spirit no okay next it's like dude it's coming from another
dimension like shut up for a minute give it a second like you like get give give it a second um
uh things like this so something that relates to what the work that has primarily been done
and that the spirit is known for even if it's related to the planet um sometimes it could be related to the
uh you know they're they're older than what the dictionary infernal said about them
at times um and then if you don't get anything then watch for dreams like if you don't get
anything that's a very clear communication well did you get anything that was a flash that was an inspiration
that was symbolism maybe you should explore that maybe you should look for omens maybe you should
whereas somebody else maybe they conjured that planetary spirit of uh of you know of of venus
can you help me get a promotion at work they get a positive result and then they invoke that spirit for the
promotion at work and get it boom so there we there there can be at times a disconnect or a non-relation between
magical results sometimes sometimes people can have these intense rituals that wind up not doing anything
what they were feeling so intensely is all the presence and energy and effort just kind of circulating around having
nowhere to go yes coming back to that theme that you've touched on jason which is just is
it useful does it work what can i do what is what is the next step and um i i know we have a few listener questions as
well that that tie into this theme and again coming back to um an entity you are very familiar with uh hecate and so
we have a listener question uh from patron jez who is asking and saying hi jason first of all let me say how
much i enjoy listening to your interviews with alex on glitch bottle oh thank you jazz and and jez says i think
your mixture jason of hilarity and knowledge brings a great sense of vitality and results in
excellent esoteric listening my question jez says relates to your suggestion of boiled eggs as offerings to hikate
my dog dexter who is black and also sometimes comes and barks and acts weirdly when i'm communicating with
akate has been stealing eggs off of the altar i'm wondering if this is a good thing jess says like the offerings are
going directly to the intended source or whether dexter is just a gobbly guts i just feed him the eggs now and after
three days but i wonder whether leaving the eggs at a crossroads would be more effective thank you jazz
could it be that hekate is utilizing her dog to consume the eggs sure could it be that the dog just gobbles
leaving out i would say i don't care if it's a cat day like don't let your dog eat the chocolate
that said you know eating like four eggs every you know is is maybe not the greatest diet for dogs
perfectly fine there's nothing wrong with your dog eating the eggs unless it makes a big mess in your house
i would just take it as like a sign a pat on the back like dogs are related to hecate the dog is eating the hecate and
offerings that's it i wouldn't read too much into it i wouldn't then start like
you know set up a shrine for the dog as like the guardian of like hecate's representative on earth or anything
calmed down like it's just it's a thing it happened it was cool you can take it as a pat on the back but
like take it as a pat on the back or take it as just hey that happens well that is definitely just again
keeping an open mind and just being aware of of of what's shifting around in the situation is excellent uh and jason
ii uh speaking of hikante uh we have another listener question for you from jt lopez uh who is saying jason
in your book and your website you frequently emphasize working with hikate and saint cyprian do you believe there's
are they perhaps just a medium an idea for our consciousness to crutch on when performing tasks relevant
to the character of these spirits maybe another way to ask this question is do you believe something inherently magical
happens when performing evocations in the name of saint cyprian and hekate or are these just ways of organizing
magic route and invoke spirits in the name of dr strange to the same effect as hikate or saint cyprian
then winds up poopooing the doctor strange idea anyway because the model of of these beings
people have in something that they believe to be real so i don't care how much chaos magic
paradigm shifting and sitting there for an hour before your ritual going i really really believe in batman i really
believe in batman i really believe i really really really believe you can hype yourself up with attention
if it was a measurable thing it's never going to match the belief in something that people think is real
and it's never going to match the faith or belief that people who are genuinely devoted to something
like it falls apart at effectiveness but thankfully the model is garbage anyway i don't i
you know the other extreme is like while people like hecate is real and her name really is hecate and like even if there
and all the attributes that we attribute to her based upon the human culture and mythologies that we know her through
level of like wow people are pretty deep and subtle already so if i'm treating this god
and there are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns and there's more out there than we know and
your earlier point about the a need for a mega model uh and so we we do have to that point another listener question for
you from patron lucid themes who is asking and saying receiving initiations from spirits into their sphere stealing
uh fraud or ro's terminology is solid macro scale magic to learn to mediate their powers
though lucid is asking are there any other types of long-term rights excluding the abram ellen right that you
you build the generation stage and then through the completion stage um they're just one example um
shamanism related to plants where it's it's not just going and tripping there's an
uh anyone interested in saint cyprien should take a look at the role of saint cyprian in like san pedro shamanism in
have a respect for the simon necronomicon i you know uh things that other people would just
history is the mark of authenticity if it's old then it's true to me that's like
we don't do this with anything other than magic like there's nothing like if i'm going
for a medical procedure i'm like well who's got the oldest textbook that's what i want to know like who's
who's got the oldest most out of date medical procedures that's what i want uh says no one um and then there's an
that is really vital to some people and and less to others and i think people violate it in disrespectful ways
that i think a lot of listeners will pick up on and have picked up on in in your courses and your books which is
you have so much experience with these traditions different traditions but you also have a lot of depth and i think
that leads to this listener question from patron casper a and casper is asking and saying hi jason you have a
tremendous amount of breadth in your background with exposure to a wide range of traditions how would you jason say
that has informed your engagement with spirits and do you have any tips for building a practice that is both
says right it's not that those traditions are not important or informative they are deeply so
and i have to stress that this is a little different than the advice that i would have given
when i was coming up because the problems today are different when i was coming up there was not a lot
so i just you know i grew up in central new jersey and i found anyone that could talk about magic at all
and then over time you know you get your driver's license and the internet gets invented and
we're gonna take it and we're gonna rip it all up and we're gonna hide it in a hundred thousand other books
researching that now i'm going to start researching this and now i'm going to start researching this
i might have been utterly lost in today's world if i if i came up because i was so hungry
interested in magic was interested in anybody at all that was interested in magic so you'd sit in a room with
lukumi practitioners and people from the temple of set and people from the oto and the golden dawn and and wiccans
if you learn something give credit where credit is due uh you know i'm always saying you know
when i picked this up here and i learned this from so and so and yeah be respectful don't misrepresent a
deviates or even just like completely is like i grabbed this and now i'm going into like weirdo wacko
sorcerer land say i grabbed this idea from there but it's not this thing you shouldn't think
of it as this thing but people do the opposite don't they they they're like oh yes this is voodoo when like no
it's not like it's not that anybody would recognize absolutely yeah that's that's such an
incredibly valuable uh perspective just to keep that in mind about the flow of information and frankly that's one of
the excellent things i really enjoy about consorting with spirits is it it takes this very vast um
menagerie of information and it and it presents it in a way that is very accessible and i think jason uh
that leads to one of the last questions about the book definitely want to get into your your future projects um but
what else should people keep in mind when they first pick up a copy of your book or they keep
working through consorting with spirits what are some of the two or three big things that you just want them to
as your model for how to treat spirits how to form relationships with spirits whether it's
they're just like oh well i asked hikate to bless this talisman on the dark of the moon and then the next
and unfortunately there will be a hundred people there going yes yes she does she hates you and now you must
uh so yeah just you know get a little grounded think a little mechanically about magic think about spirits as if
is good enough to get you in trouble but not good enough to get you out the the summoning works but not the
afraid to experiment and to try new things that is such incredible advice and i i really hope that uh the
listeners appreciate it as much as i do and uh make sure to check out the video and podcast descriptions below to um get
your own copy of jason's book consorting with spirits but jason you're always busy working on something and i think
encapsulates this and lucid is saying i was waiting for this episode after finishing jason's book just last week hi
mr miller with this latest book out and your upcoming arcane audio on the mechanics of magic do you jason have any
um you know uh it's it's summer and i do have i can't i have plans that i'm
working on but i can't share it so there may be a book sooner than usual there's usually my books come out like
i can't talk about it too much yet and it's summertime so i'm just trying to keep keep the classes i have going
you know there'll probably be another arcane audio here and there those those classes you can find them all on my
website with uh there's an archive of all the arcane audios now i think there's 27 of them
but you know those are things that like they don't fit anywhere else like i get an idea of like i want to give a class
in this it's like it's deeper than a blog post but not a book or a course but i can devote three hours one night
talking with it so i give these occasional zoom classes um and yeah so all the recordings are up so
sure to check out the uh podcast and video description uh to check out jason's website as well as his
latest book to pick up your own copy is called consorting with spirits and i know that uh the patrons of the
podcast will be enjoying a little bit of an after show but for the main part of the podcast uh practicing magician
author strategic sorcerer jason miller as always thank you just so so much for for taking the time and