Introduction
Welcome back to Glitch Bottle! In today's episode, we dive into an intriguing topic: "How to Consort with Spirits" with expert Jason Miller. Magic is often viewed as a solitary art, yet building relationships with spirits can enrich your practice immensely. This article will explore the essential concepts from Jason Miller's latest book, "Consorting with Spirits," covering aspects such as the importance of locality and relationship in esoteric practices, different magical systems, and so much more.
What is Spirit Consorting?
Consorting with spirits is not just about evocation or summoning; it's about building ongoing relationships with the spiritual entities that you wish to engage with. Jason Miller emphasizes this through the mindful use of the term "consorting," which implies familiarity, respect, and an ongoing connection.
Why is the Term "Consorting" Important?
The choice of the word "consorting" reflects two meanings:
- Historical Context: In the 1600s, consorting with spirits could lead to imprisonment or death; it acknowledges the risks involved in magical practices.
- Cultivating Relationships: The term suggests a deeper relationship with spirits, akin to friendships rather than one-time encounters. This ongoing engagement is essential in effectively practicing magic.
Key Takeaway: True sorcery involves not just technique, but relationships. The more you invest in these relationships, the more empowered your magical practice will become.
The Importance of Locality in Sorcery
The Concept of Local Magic
According to Jason, the best sorcery is local, which means that it is enriched by your immediate environment and the spirits or energies present within it. Just like building relationships with people, getting to know the spirits proximal to you can create a more meaningful magical experience. This idea aligns with the principles discussed in Unlocking Your Potential: The Power of Transcendent Awareness and Self-Discovery.
Comparison to Coffee: If you want a great latte, is it better to build a relationship with the barista at your local coffee shop or the CEO of Starbucks? The connection you create locally is often richer and more fulfilling.
Navigating Magical Systems
Jason illustrates how local engagement can contrast with the desire for universal systems of magic. Often, practitioners obsess over the grand schemes and systems—like communicating with high-ranking spirits—while neglecting the local entities that could offer more personal benefits. This concept resonates with Exploring the Reality of Magic: Insights from Dr. Dean Radin.
The Role of Familiarity and Relationships
Building relationships with spirits can involve:
- Regular offerings or rituals focused on local spirits
- Engaging with spirits of your culture or ancestry
- Being receptive to the nuances of living in your community
Understanding Different Magical Traditions
Jason structures his magical approach around three key traditions: Christianity, Paganism, and Luciferianism. Each tradition offers various frameworks for spirit communication and conjuration.
Christian Paradigms
In this tradition, evocation often invokes a Judeo-Christian context, tying spirits to divine authority. The engagement may sometimes highlight the dangers inherent in calling forth spirits who possess their own autonomy.
Pagan Approaches
Pagan traditions allow for a different interpretation of spirits—often focusing on nature, earth, and local deities, enriching the practitioner's ability to manifest desires through a more personal lens. This is similar to the insights shared in Unlocking the Power of the 11-11 Portal: A Spiritual Guide to Manifesting Dreams.
Luciferianism
Luciferian perspectives often prioritize understanding the self and embracing complexity within magical practice. Understanding how these traditions interweave will help enrich personal experiences within magic. This notion aligns with the lessons from 5 Life Lessons from Derek Sivers: Embracing Authenticity Over Obligation.
Models of Engagement with Spirits
Jason critiques traditional models for understanding spirits—suggesting instead a "mega model" that incorporates various perspectives (psychological, information-based, energetic, and spiritual models).
What is a Mega Model?
The mega model eschews a singular understanding of spirits in favor of a framework that acknowledges:
- Complex interactions between belief systems
- The influence of personal perception in encounters
- The nuances of different magical systems behind each interaction
Resonance in Magical Experience
Miller also emphasizes the significance of magical resonance. Instead of expecting full manifestations, practitioners should recognize that simple resonance is often the most common form of spirit interaction.
- What is Magical Resonance?: It's the subtler forms of communication and influence that spirits exert in our lives, often manifesting as intuition or emotions related to the spirit's characteristics.
Transforming the Practice of Magic
Practical Engagement with Spirits
As practitioners delve deeper into magic, maintaining discernment is essential. People often report grand experiences, yet it can lead beginners off course if they measure their journeys against others' testimonials. Jason encourages:
- Listening and Engagement: Allow the spirit to communicate its messages rather than overwhelming the connection through fear or doubt.
- Experiments and Evaluations: Approach rituals as experiments—if they yield results, take notes and refine your methods, no matter how subtle the outcomes.
Integrating Spiritual Guidance
Connecting with spirits can feel abstract, yet Jason emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the messages from your own intuition alongside their communication. Individuals should learn to differentiate between what resonates personally versus what might stem from external influence.
Conclusion
In this exploration of "Consorting with Spirits," Jason Miller reveals the intricacies of engaging with the unseen world. Whether through local spirits, understanding different magical traditions, or recognizing the subtleties of interactions, the key takeaway is that deeper relationships can empower practitioners in their magical pursuits. Fostering a growing connection and being receptive to the influences around you can lead to profound experiences and successfully navigate your journey in the esoteric arts.
[Music] salutations listeners and welcome back to glitch bottle the podcast where we
uncork the uncommon in magic mysticism and the generally misunderstood i'm your host alexander f and today we are so
excited to discuss how to consort with spirits with practicing magician author and strategic sorcerer jason miller and
you might be wondering listeners out there what is a spirit what does it mean to have a
relationship with a spirit what are the different models of esoteric engagement when is something like friendly
conjuration called for versus a stronger approach in ritual well jason miller is one of the best people to ask on these
topics and jason's latest home consorting with spirits covers these topics and so much
more in incredible depth and so jason today is returning on the podcast to go deep into magical systems deepening
connections with spirits what a relationship actually means and also jason is answering your amazing glitch
bottle patreon listener questions so thanks to each and every patron of the podcast for asking jason so many awesome
questions jason as i know many listeners know has devoted more than 30 years
to studying magical practice and engagement in so many forms and he's the author of several other tones of magical
insight as well including protection and reversal magic financial sorcery and so many others and so now to
help us uncork the uncommon let's welcome jason miller jason thank you so much for again returning on the
podcast really appreciate your time oh thank you for having me i it's a pleasure thank you so much for having me
on again well i i it the the honor is always mine jason and i i
try not to speak for the listeners but i'm sure they feel the same way uh and your latest tome jason is called
consorting with the spirits um and one of the first things that you stress about this book is
how intentional you are with the title and specifically the use of the word consorting can you can you
share with the listeners about why is that word so important uh regarding this topic
yeah you know um the this is the first time i have ever
insisted on a title uh i i let new page or wiser now generally
pick a title and it probably shouldn't have but you know uh early on i just said you guys handle
that and uh but this time i was really like i want this to be the title because
it's got a dual meaning so first it is the title of a crime that you could have been charged with in england in the
1600s uh you were consorting with spirits if you were doing what we do
and so i just wanted to pay a little nod to the fact that
uh yes a lot of people who were just innocent women and and
and men uh got caught up
in politics and in local scares that maybe had no real esoteric practice at all
but at the same time we also know from recipe books and and manuals that people were consorting with spirits um
at the risk of imprisonment and and their online you know and and deaf
so it was important it it's it's they they took that risk and that's something that
um in this risk-averse world people are are really like well how do i know it's
completely safe nothing is ever completely safe so it's risky uh the other aspect to this is that
consorting implies an ongoing relationship right like like if you meet someone disreputable right like if
you meet tony soprano you're not consorting with the mob you've just you know you've met
a mobster if however you're hanging out at the you know at the italian butcher where the
guys all hang out and you know them all on first name basis because you're there all the time
you're consorting you know and and that's the definitions of consorting in the
dictionary they also add this little bit of you know an ongoing relationship with disreputable people or or beings that
are not well thought of and so it's that idea that hey you're doing
something that society frowns upon and you're not just doing it once you're building
a life around it you're integrating this into who you are and your life and your relationships and those relationships
are really important they're kind of what separate the real witches magician sorcerers from
the folks that are like i'm gonna crack open a book and take a stab at this so thus consorting with spirits and two
jason you know you mentioned that exactly there's this kind of risk aversion that's going on and it's been
going on for years i know you know i went years ago when i first picked up grimoires i was thinking oh
well let me just calculate everything perfectly until i can jump in and just how how detrimental that is and you
mentioned in the book as well that when it comes down to it the best sorcery is local and can you
just talk about that word local and just what that means in this context especially since as you touched on in
today's day and age so many people are obsessed with having kind of universal systems of magic that everything fits
into neat little correspondencies in in some areas yeah you know um
so i think of it this way if you want to get a great
latte who is it better to forge a relationship the the person at the local coffee shop
or the ceo of starbucks right uh or or even the regional manager right
if you want to get your deliveries
on time and not broken is it better for you to know jeff bezos or is it better for you to
have a can you know to occasionally tip your ups fedex guy um so it's local it's you know it's it's
the all sorcery is local in a way because even if you did contact the ceo
it just it has to filter down and it gets carried out by some local guy anyway
so the best of all worlds is to carry the authority that comes with having that connection at the top
but also having a friendly relationship at the bottom too many people are just concerned with
the top with the big names and for the longest time i remember the first time i ever let a spirit feast
ritual be published it was in a magazine called out of philadelphia out of the oto in
philly and a couple people said well this sort of
flies in the face of that anti-spiritualist stance that we ceremonial magicians have like you're
just getting anything you know you're you're you're making contact with whatever is around the corner
like isn't that dangerous and i said let's let's unpack this right
like let let's really seriously think about this instead of just repeating the old chestnut over and over
and let's use people as an example i i could have easily called this book it's just like with people because every
example comes back down to how do we do this with people
and so you move into an area what kind of person are you do you want
to get do you get to know your neighbors do you get to know the people in the area or
do you buy a who's who and only ever allow yourself to contact the most important people the most well-known
people um and then you know on the other side of that it turns out that
if you you know crack open the books of the well-known spirits they're not safe like there's nothing
safe about these some of them are quite dangerous and even the angels are not terribly safe
so it's kind of like like what are you afraid of well you could get anything
around the corner that could lie to you anything can lie like any you know you've got there's no
guarantees it's just like with people so that's why i say you know look you want
to get to local to the locals and very often even when people think they're dealing
with a god or or uh you know an angel or spirit they wind up dealing with a local uh it
could be that the choirs of angels under the archangel or the legions of demons under the the well-known you know demon
with a office and a title um or it could be what i call the mall santa phenomenal right which is like a
local being who is more manifest this is really what we're talking about like well-known gods like jupiter
they're they're they're so vast um and and they are powerful but they're
not like you can't point to them in a room you when you invoke them you feel their presence but you really have to
like go to extreme lengths to get them to the point where you can point to them in a room
right it's it's a that's like full forceful evocation and often not comfortable right
so what do they do they have mall samples and and the idea behind the mall stands
is pretty simple like by the time kids are four or five they realize that the guy at the mall
isn't santa he works for santa right like santa's of course real kids so the guy at the mall works for santa
which is why he looks different in every mall and you know they know santa's busy with managing the elves and everything
so they tell they treat him like he's santa they tell him what they want and then at night he delivers the message up
to the big guy i think this was played out really well by macaulay culkin and home alone where
he corners the the santa after the fact is like getting into his car um but yeah that you know sometimes
that's exactly what you're dealing with and this is i would you know when i was writing the
book i was bouncing some ideas around with bj swain and he's like you know this is really actually a
well-documented thing in history too that local beings will speak for the gods and
so on so yeah local it's all local
and that's such a refreshing perspective because it really challenges you to look in your situation and your environment
and in the rituals that you're engaged in and what i love about that too jason in your book consorting with spirits is
against this backdrop of locality and relationship and consorting you frame most most of the rituals in the book as
you say with three main strains if you will three main traditions uh christianity paganism
and luciferianism can you share with the listeners especially someone like yourself who you know you've you've
explored so many traditions in your 30-plus years of experience and esotericism
why these three traditions specifically to frame most of the rituals
well you know they cover um they cover a gambit so
at the at the moment especially when we're talking about conjuring right when we're talking about
evoking and conjuring with circles and and and so on there's a lot of interest
and in in see in my head i presented it as three but in my head it's really two
positions so because i have sort of a christio
diabolic view as you as you know from from looking at some of the cypriotic stuff
um but it matters how you approach it right so let's you know in the book i focus on
the the demons in the ars croatia but it could be you know i i also talk about uh
demons from the the uh grimoire verum but it could also be an angel or something like that
the power that you're drawing the authority from you have to think of it in relation to
the being and then how the whole rest of it works so
there's a lot of people out there they want they want
the demons of the arscoasia because as far as i can tell because the seals look
cool they're they're just [ __ ] they're really awesome kind of the same way that like you know the way the seal
for lucifer in asia has become the seal of lucifer boom why because it
just it looks cooler than the seal of lucifer in europe it's easier to draw it's more geometrical it's a good logo
the other one just kind of sucks so whether you think that lucifer took this and is like actually that's the
real one that i hid in there or if lucifer was like hey i like that one let's go with it you know you you humans
came up with it let's roll with that one or if people were just like it just looks cooler
and so it's now blossomed into the thing but you got to think about how those spirits are in relation
so traditional grimoire work you're approaching it through a christian lens right you're you're
approaching god and you're calling these spirits in the name of god
and the madonna and and the savior and the angels and
so what are you doing you're using the opposing army you're using the antagonistic army the one that's like
i'm i'm getting the enemy who i am i you know i am ruling over because i've won the battle
uh and i'm forcing them to appear right like i'm i am i am calling them by these powers
and then you could argue that those seals function within that view like maybe
those seals are the seals of that bind those spirits
under those powers and then once you change those powers out maybe those seals don't work the same or at all
something to consider so now let's flip it around
to the luciferian angle because there's just a lot of luciferians and satanists
and and things like that out there of every shade and
you know sometimes there's i'm not a left-hand path person there's some corners of that world that i really
detest and there's some corners of that world that very fine perfectly nice people um
and solid thinking in in some ways so uh let's take a look at that and then okay well how does it work because now
we're not calling upon that spirit with the opposing army we're talking to the boss like
we're conjuring it under the boss who is friendly on the same side as those demons
so the conjuration has to change a little bit you can't just rip the names out and throw the new names in
now let's remove it from that christian
worldview entirely there is no god there is no devil there's just these spirits and let's conjure them under the power
of hecate and you know as as bj had pointed out in uh living spirits that
you know hecate works her way in to christian demonology certainly a lot of what we know about later hecate and
third year comes from michael selles the byzantine demonologist um
and so hecate is certain and there are talismans with hecate on one side and
solomon on the other like i don't mean new ones i mean you know in antiquity
um so hecate is just sort of like you know here's an important pagan figure uh but
could also model how some other pagan relation figure that you have a relationship might work
so now the whole thing is different maybe the circle is different maybe we're not calling the four kings anymore
and in the book i say let's call the winds and rivers instead because
those four kings aren't don't necessarily respond with hecate at the center in the same way
um and so the whole dynamics change because now you're calling it
from a pagan figure on the outside but people i don't know they seem to have this
attitude like all you really need to do is just rip out the names you don't like and throw in the names you do like
and it's not really that way because there's more to it than that like these are well constructed
rituals that have a consistency and if you switch one part out it changes the whole thing
uh and this is true for everything you know one of the things that that i've i've always been flummoxed by with um
say like the thalemic gnostic church right is like you know yes we can go and we
have the apostolic secession that goes all the way back to to christ like okay
but you don't invoke christ or call upon christ in
your rituals so why do you even care about that like it doesn't matter and do you because you're
not doing it in that name anyway you've got the
you know the person to person but you're no longer operating like that's
like me saying well i'm going to give hecate empowerments because i
have tantric empowerments that go all the way back to pubmed which i do but
that doesn't mean anything in in relationship to hecate so who gives it who cares
right like it's it's irrelevant in that context so um people need to figure out the
relevancy and and you know and and work with it that way
jason that flows directly into this next concept that you touch on in your book because
as you mentioned you have these various tributaries and sometimes people can get tangled by
focusing perhaps a little bit too much on the model of spirits and you tell you know this has been going on for years
the psychological model versus the spirit based model versus the energy model the resonance model and you may
give such an interesting argument in the book you say that the model
quote should not be meta but a mega model can you just define those two terms and and and
really help listeners understand about what is a mega spiritual model yeah so
um it's it's funny because i've been saying this for like over a decade since since back when the
blogosphere was alive with the you know what is america's next top model of
magic um and and people were just hunkered down
into these things and i'm like this is a like this entire conversation is just stupid
so i go back to to um freighter eugene who whose writings i
respect and who wrote a nice little piffy piece uh on the models of magic
and he lays out four and then a quasi-fifth model of how magic works so
he's got spirits as like the old model magic is worked through spirits right and then
somewhere probably around the time that we started messing around with radio and uh and electricity
we started to think oh well maybe energy is how magic works but also if we start to look at
magic in the east that fits a lot better like the
translators were already using energy for a lot of the functions of spirits in eastern models
of magic because you know you're you're i mean visualizing tetrahedrons in your
body that get filled up with a rain of energy it sounds like something drunvalo melchizedek pulled out of his butt but
really it's i mean this is this that practice is a purification ritual from nuguma is over a thousand years old
so then you've got so you've got the energy quote model
and then you've got around again the time of psychoanalysis and and young and whatnot the mind model
well maybe this is all the powers of the mind and this has the benefit of all sounding
much more sciencey than spirits right it's it's much much less superstitious than spirits
um and then as we start to come into the computer age and the information age
we start to think in terms of the information model um
and so we have this idea that well it's maybe it's not your mind it's just that there's
information there's a mental uh model where patrick dunn encapsulates
this really nicely that that the information model is talking to the universe in a way that the universe
understands and responds so this kind of explains sympathetic magic really nicely right
um and it also explains why some things that are probably not intrinsically true
right like i don't think that kids in india who draw like a hexagram as
part of a yantra are invoking or banishing a planet based on the golden dogs yet
it's also not just what you think about it because i have met people who've done the wrong hexagram and accidentally
invoke that planet so there's there's a there's an information there that is
beyond the personal mind but within the tradition that they're working in so the stream of information
so what what fredo ud says is he's like you know well we've got these four different
models of magic and but they all seem true
because everybody that is able to work magic with them so what we need and uh you know in his mind and in the mind of
the 90s chaos magician right we need a meta model because
chaos magicians and the 90s in general like anything you can do i can do meta that's
that and like they love it and only the only thing you love better than meta is quantum
so it's it's like you know all magic is in a quantum state like trenders cat until you decide on the model and then
that's model that's true and so i'm i you know and then i get to this
and i was like well it's sort of a brilliant breakdown of of four ways that magic works and then when you get to the
meta the whole thing just becomes incredibly stupid in the way that if we get into a car and
i'm like well i believe that the car runs on gasoline and you believe that the car runs on electricity
and bj believes that the car runs purely on mechanics and
you know i don't know just somebody else believes that the car runs on uh you know oil
well then really what's happening is the car runs on that thing based upon who is driving right like that's the meta model
that's dumb right like the car doesn't really give a
crap what you believe the car uses all of these things because they
each have a different purpose and so if you look at these four models of magic and you stop treating
them as models of magic and start treating them as forces of magic or
ways that or or not even not even that magic is one thing
just these are four different ways of causing change that fit under the umbrella of magic
then all of a sudden it becomes much clearer because you can see
that there are spirits which then explains why very often
things spirits behave in ways that are not expected or can do things that clearly are not just part of your mind
and but that very often
what spirits tell people winds up being like okay you know the spirit said to lift my foot and close my left eye to
shift bodily energy or you know when their their hands get hot or when they're focusing
they find that their focus affects a conjuration or a spell um or why is it that sympathetic magic
also works if the spirit model is just all that there is like
you know why do does the venetian textbook exist where you're doing essentially folk magic but with the
demons of the the grimoire verum well because you're taking that spirit from the
grimoire verum and you you who are also a spirit is investing your mind
and your energy and your focus into it and then you're doing some kind of sympathetic magic like dropping coins
with clownx seal on it into a bank that gives then the energy and mind of the spirit
something to latch on to that's material speaks to the information model
so that's the mega model like stop looking at for some clever
single feature for all of magic to work
because or for that matter for even just spirits to work because the the thing is all of our models
in magic in religion they're all too tidy they're they're not tidy enough to
explain the physical world that we live in and all agree upon as real
so they're definitely uh not complex enough to
explain a subtle reality but because
magic doesn't get challenged in the way that physical findings do we just basically decide to believe
something and then defend it and it's like it's a fact when it's not a fact
there's nothing less sciencey than things that are done with the methods of science but the aim of religion like
i've never seen worse science in my life jason you bring up such a fascinating point in terms of of recognizing that
you need to break some of these long-held habits long-held paradigms and one of those things and we've discussed
this before in the past is there are some say ceremonial magicians out there who
might say listen when you evoke a spirit successfully you must have
a manifestation to full visible appearance and i'm taking one side of the spectrum you know just to make a
point but you say in the book that quote simple resonance simple resonance is the most
commonplace manifestation of a spirit's influence in your life it accounts you say for probably 80 of
magic even in some classical grimoires that focus on making spirits appear active resonance is all that is sought
unquote what is magical resonance and what what do you want magicians to keep in mind if
they've been practicing for years or if they're just starting out sure so you know i mean sometimes
um and when i say this i'm actually not talking about any of the authors or the
notables out there uh when i offer this critique they know the books like they know
but i think sometimes the people that are just out there because like they've decided that they're solomonic
or or whatever their grimoire is and they're walking around like musashi to prove that they're the best and
everything else sucks and like they don't they don't even pay attention to the fact that well you know
there's natural magic um that's explained in those very books and sympathetic that magic that's given
in those books um and that you
in most of those books you go through this long ceremony and you're you are getting this
face-to-face full appearance and what is the first thing that you do you want to set up something easier so
you don't have to do that all the time right so it's like this you know how did we
set up this call right we used facebook messenger um
so the attitude would be like well it's not really talking with andrew or jason unless
we are in the room together and it's like well
no like we can do zoom but then we don't even have to do zoom for some things we
just use messenger for some things right so if you are like this is why you get
you get people doing like three hour ceremonies to do something that like a folk
magician could do in a few minutes or or a route worker could do without you know yeah let's just make this
happen uh or or frankly ordinary people can do with just a little effort um
and you know like a little effort and charm and you know
the the ceremonial magician is like you know no i must evoke oroboss to full appearance
to ask it to you know help me get a promotion at work
it's it's weary it's it's you know the spirits everything we know from historical records the spirits
don't particularly love to be evoked that way um
so why do we think that this is the best like why are we breaking reality for ordinary crap
um and so what is resonance resonance is when you're doing some kind of magic and you attract the power of the spirit
you you've you've attracted maybe not even the full attention of the spirit you've just
set up a resonance with that spirit in a way that brings its power into whatever you're doing
through a song through you know and the thing is the killer is the evocations themselves as acts of
magic i mean the calls of conjuration are themselves done through resonance right like if you are calling
a spirit in the name of saba in the name of an and you know this scene and that scene
they're not being evoked to full appearance right
so you're using that resonance already um you know in in the bible um
christ is is walking and uh a gentile woman who's sick
touches the hem of his garment and he stops
he notices that like he has power has drained from him he didn't
he didn't heal her she just grabbed the hem of his garment and was healed
and he then says go forth in faith but the scripture is very clear he didn't stop and then like i now heal you no it
was all automatic resonance like she just grabbed the hem of his garment so you know if you are
doing a piece of sympathetic magic you don't need to conjure
the archangel into full appearance you can call it through a novena or through
prayers or through evocations or through chanting and get that resonance and then what what
unfortunately what people kind of with that like one trick pony view of evocation see is like oh this idiot
thinks he can just call the name of the archangel and it's the same as my intense ceremonially well no he doesn't
think it's the same you just think that's the only way magic can happen and you're wrong
so it's um yeah so you've got resonance you've got full evocation and you've got other
things in between when people visualize the archangels and then call upon the archangels to
take up resonance in those visualizations that's not an evocation the i don't even think the
archangels are in any way like consciously aware of it happening but your the strength of your
visualization note your power your information your information
the the the power the energy perhaps when when people chant the name and they feel that bodily response of energy it's
like tai chi uh so there's a bodily energy there that that's fed into it and then that
attracts the resonance and so there's all these levels of manifestation that spirits can make
um that all get handled differently and magic can be done at all of them
and and often the most powerful or the most intense is not the most effective for
any given situation i mean certainly the most intense way to contact me is to like walk up to me in the street and say
hi are you jason i you know but if i don't know who you are my answer is no you have the wrong person
like it's happened and just flat no i'm not that guy i i have no idea who you are
unless i'm alone or something like that but but like if i'm out with family or something i'm
like nope and so yeah the most intense is not always
the best the best is the best that's that's wonderful advice and speaking of that jason you mentioned
just broadly speaking that there are two kind of main groups of people out there and many listeners might find themselves
in one group or in another or somewhere in between and you mentioned that there are those who are prone to psychic
experiences after a ritual they report everything during a ritual maybe with scrying and there are those who are not
prone to psychic experiences or those direct feedback experiences during ritual and you mentioned that
both of those groups have work to do uh in various areas so if someone's listening and they might
find themselves in one of those groups what is the work for each group that you'd recommend that they take a look at
yeah so you know i mean the two groups are sort of extreme so
hopefully most people are in the middle somewhere but um
but people do tend to drift towards extremes sometimes and and more and more so these
days but i think what happens especially in online culture
is people they get onto a group and
they have some modest spiritual experiences right like they do a spell and the spell works out and they you
know they felt something or they received a message or they had a dream or
an inspiration or they performed an evocation of a spirit and they saw a face and they
then they felt a response but they didn't have a conversation that was like up to their standards and then they get
online and then you know somebody is like oh well you know i just said
papa legba three times and then papa legba showed up and told me that i am you know his child and that i should go
and and so then people start measuring their
experience by these other people who have these like
fantasmagoric shows every time they close their eyes and i'm one of those people that that
like i you know i do a piece of magic i'll get something right um and that at first when i was younger
that was like a badge of like yeah you know i i can walk away if i'm at an open circle um and then we everyone's sharing
i'm gonna have something to share because i i definitely saw some but here's the thing
you the first thing to do is if you're in that camp of i see stuff easily i feel stuff
easily your work is discernment it's discernment
like realize that every experience you've ever had
even watching this podcast is a mixture of projection and perception like you're perceiving it
accurately to some degree and you're projecting a little bit upon it as well
um and every experience you've ever had is a mix of this the moment that it's passed
you've you've projected all kinds of stuff onto it well subtle experiences not surprising
are even more prone to this kind of thing so your work is to improve that ratio
your work is to cut through those easy to get surface level things where maybe there's a spark of a spirit
contact and then your mind just goes wee i'm gonna you know i'm gonna roll with
this but you know and i think it's good to roll with things when they're happening
but afterwards you should look and say what was actionable like what
was there anything here that's for me to do that's useful and that makes any kind of sense or at least isn't terribly
dangerous is there anything meaningful here that that gives me a context for
uh for framing for use for for for feeling better about something for
even just a thumbs up like your work is going really well um then cool
but if not then just let it go you don't have to judge
it as false it's you don't have to judge it at all because it's irrelevant just let it go
just don't make it a thing it's a thing that happened the most powerful things that a magician can
learn are the phrase is well that happened because you don't have to do anything with it it's just it was a
thing that happened uh and and you don't need to make it a big deal you
don't need to boost your ego you don't need to think that you're great you don't need to think that you're bad it
was just let it go like like something that happens in a meditation
now on the other side of the coin uh people that are that are head blind or they they are trump have trouble with
experiences there's a bunch of different spirit skills in the book and then there's a bunch of different things
in other books of mind and other people's exercises that you can do um
but some of the like some of the best things to do are are two things that you can just integrate into your regular
life one recapture some idle time
because humans need idle time to just not do anything to be bored to
let the mind wander go for a walk without a podcast without any distractions mow the lawn
um these kinds of things don't meditate this isn't about focusing the minds just
about letting the mind be because that's when you build connections right that's when you build
connections in the mind it's when you are open when you can receive things so adding a little bit of that time and
space builds those muscles and unfortunately in 2007 we killed what little idle time we had left with
cell phones with smartphones right like we no longer even are bored waiting in line for something we we've got
something to occupy every moment of every day and it's not good for you and as a as a person who wants to talk to
spirits it's particularly not good for you um
the other thing that i would say is cut yourself a little break and learn to do what the other folks do like
when it's happening just go on the roller coaster ride engage
if you get and i like let's say that you've evoked i don't know you know malphos
and you see like a bird fly off what generally happens is the people who
are headlined think that was just my mind because i know somewhere that malfoss is associated
with birds so i that's just a brain fart i'm going to sit and wait until malthus really shows up
and like grabs me by the nuts in a way that i can't deny well unfortunately that bird might have been malfus going
like hey you know you don't you're oriented to
the physical and i'm trying to get through to you and i got this little bit through and you said [ __ ] off
so don't do that engage in it and yeah it might be a brain fart but
again afterwards review it afterwards with credit with
with with self critique engage in it while it's going um and here's the beauty let's say that
you engage with it while it's going and you get something that is useful
and uh in some way shape or form that that helps you say frame or think differently about an issue that's vexing
or or even an idea for a spell right like a thing to do with malthus's seal for instance
uh for me a lot of the spirits of the ars croatia one of the reasons i love working with them is that
all the time they give me spells related to their seals so
it's like okay you've got this and then people will think well that's probably just me
but again who cares was it actionable does it make sense give it a try
um stop trying it's your it's like you're riding a bike that moment where you're riding and you
say am i am i riding a bike you fall over because you're not engaging it enough to
get any kind of momentum so there are all kinds of other spirit skill tricks and and and tips and
practices both little things you could do in the moment and long practices that build over time
but in the end you know a little bit of idle time and a little bit of
like engaging imaginative play to lead you somewhere and shut down that critic in the moment
really powerful stuff and jason as well you one of the themes that you really
mention in the book that is kind of pervasive is exactly you know allowing yourself
loosen the grip on your day-to-day reality be open be receptive and really it's about paying attention
one of the themes that you talk about and to that point jason we have many listener questions for you and one
of them is from uh patron alex brock art who is asking how prevalent jason or how often are
things like intuition feelings emotion or even ideas influenced by spirits and if so how can
one start to parse out what's in one's own mind versus the influence of the spirit is
there a reason jason most of society does not perceive spirits so we don't perceive so first of all we
are spirits we're organized around physical bodies so
you perceive spirits every day that are organized in physical bodies human animal trees everything else
but i get what you mean you mean why are we not perceiving
ghosts and and nymphs and and so on and the reason is that they're organized not around physical bodies so they're
oriented our perception is oriented towards the physical their perception is oriented towards etheric or astral or
even uh vast mental spaces that that aren't spatial in the
way that we think of them so um
you know i i i was just having a conversation where somebody said you know it's funny that you make that you
reject platonism because you do have this sort of layered like under this is that and
under this is that and i'm like yes but i don't believe that one rules the other i don't believe that there's like a
perfection and then everything else is like degrees of suckage um so i don't like i just like i don't
think my bones are inherently better than my skin it's you know they're just they're layers
so um you know i believe in layers i just don't think that there's any kind of
divine betterness about one layer over another but um so but we are oriented to these
different layers and of course a lot of cultures think that ideas do come from spirits or
that ideas are spirits you know the the the genius the idea of the genius is the idea of a spirit
um and this is not particularly a cult i think one of the the
best modern explanations of it was from the book big magic by uh pray love elizabeth gilbert
she writes about how she had like this very very specific idea and then another writer had very
very specific idea at more or less the same time and there's no way they could have overlapped
um the movie 28 days later what this was written at around the same time that the comic book the grateful
the grateful ted the walking dead was written both of them start out with somebody waking up from a coma in a
zombie apocalypse they didn't know each other this was not an idea that was passed around
it was an idea that was just out there in the information in the in the free-floating so
you know there is a level to which because we are not
islands that our ideas may not be our own but when it comes to
say summoning a spirit and sometimes a spirit will filter very close to the
physical and you'll hear it like a physical voice and that's that's cool when it happens
and it's great um but other times spirits will speak in
uh ideas and sometimes spirits will speak in sort
of a twisted symbolic language depends on the type of spirit and your ability to
communicate the best way to separate is to meditate uh now this is not the
idle time this is actually sitting focusing on breath or or some other single pointed focus
and then you become distracted and you return to it
why is that the best training because it's not that meditation
will open you up to some clarity and and higher level of of thinking although it
can and does if you continue with it but when people what i'm talking about is the stuff that
makes people think that they're bad at meditation i sit down and i just get distracted
yeah that's meditation like sitting down and then
like focusing on the breath for about three seconds before you think about porn
is is meditation and then recognizing that you're thinking about porn and returning
to the breath is re recognizing the texture of your own mind and taking control over it and going
back to it so once you get that and you get a feel for
what the fabric of your own thoughts is like it's actually very easy to start recognizing when something comes in
that's not that doesn't have that texture that doesn't feel that way
um so that's sort of the best thing to do that is such great wisdom i i definitely
hope that the listeners appreciate that as much as i do because i know that was one of the things i struggled with early
on and that allowing yourself that forgiveness it's okay it's supposed to happen you're supposed to get distracted
you're supposed to learn about that and i think jason that meditation is one of the many
foundational aspects that you touch on in your book consorting with spirits that i think people you know will really
enjoy and to that point we actually have another foundational aspect that you
discuss and we have a listener question for you from patron tom mcarthur and tom is saying and asking
in the book jason you mentioned confession as an effective form of purification
but you don't spend much time on it and suggest that it's okay to skip if need be on the other hand tom says jake
stratton kent and others stress it as an essential step of conjuration do you jason think an oath and confession
should ideally be a part of every ritual is another form of purification just as good and
what's your experience jason of conjuring with versus without confession as part of a ritual
uh yeah so i'm not enormously into confession uh as a purification method
so here's the thing about purification so when we purify
we sublimate right we become more sublime we become closer to
uh the spirit and we become less burdened by
some of the physical things um in a in sort of a classical christian context where we might be setting up a
battle with a demon then of course you know if we know that we are you know our soul is clean then
the demon can't have anything over us or anything like that which um
you know i just i don't know like look around at catholics that go to
confession regularly do they seem unburdened by sin not to me
um so what's the practical effect like i know what it's supposed to be
but look around like that's always my thing like yeah i know that this is supposed to create
adepts who are like better than ordinary people but look around like does this seem like
better than ordinary people or does this seem like you might be better off having like
you know random people from the local church watcher kids like so it's it's it's that kind of thing
like i'm always like look around at what it really does in practice not what it's supposed to do
um that said you know confession is is also uh
uh is recognize the world over and purification is but then there are energetic purifications so for instance
in uh in tantra and i'm i'm you know i'm guilty of taking a lot of things that i've learned in
tantra and applying them to the wider world of magic i don't even like the term western magic
because i'm always like like are we really just making this line between turkey and greece and pretending that
the entire world somehow is different on the other side i think it's stupid so
but i am guilty of taking concepts that work that are just that
that are functional um and applying them to other magic which is functional because i'm more
concerned with authenticity of function than i am authenticity of tradition or history right like those are fine if
those are your concerns but i'm more interested in authenticity of functions so
uh within tantra there are rituals that where you would confess and and you would you know you would list things
that that that you know are are val breakages and so on but then there are also rituals that
veer closer to inner tantra and and zhongchen one of my favorite is you know the
characteristics of confession and what must be confessed are liberated within their own place
and thus you know the mantle of confession is naturally
and spontaneously accomplished ah and you sound the syllable ah because
it's the natural sound of of the you don't make it it's said to be the natural state
because if you just vibrate your vocal chords without making any other sounds with your mouth you get ah
and so you're just recognizing that everything that you do uh
is a manifestation of your attachments and therefore something that you could confess but
really you know underneath uh then there's energetic confessions
where they visualize a deity above their heads and then they even more sublime deities above them and then they filter
down and then you literally see your body as you chant a hundred syllable mantra get
filled up and you see the blackness pour out and and so on so there are energetic practices i do to sublimate uh and and
and um and purify um so i'm not that big into confession i
just it feels to me like kind of fake um
and i i'm not big into the fakes i always feel like more of a like a spirit would call me out on being
a big faker than than anything else i'd rather just be okay with things that i do
um i remember once this is a weird thing to relate to
confession but but seriously i remember once i get this like email with like an old password from like that
i hadn't used in 10 years and it was like one of those extortion emails like this is your password we have videos of
you doing nasty things in front of your computer you know the idea being that you know i'm like
and i looked at it and i was like like me you and everybody else buddy like
knock yourself out like uh and and it was just like
okay so how does this relate to confession because
if a demon is like i know the evil thoughts that you have yeah me too like
sure absolutely thoughts about you know like like just horrible things
yeah absolutely sure
but you know i try not to do them and when i you know if i do have acted on them and paid the price and
you know sat with it and dealt with it and you know i'm good
like that to me is confession i don't need um
having someone else say that i'm forgiven has never helped me
really be okay with any of that whereas
dealing with it does and i think we have i think we have better tools even in
modern day common life not magical spiritual life just common
life i think we have better tools than than the people who wrote the grimoires
had and i think not using those tools because they didn't exist when the
grimoire was written is silly and jason to that point in terms of
revisiting those you know quote unquote more traditional tools we do have a listener question for you from patron
lucid thiems who is asking a quote fasting and purification are noted to be necessary for large
operations like an evocation but for general offering rituals do you think any sort of purity is needed
so it's you know for general offering rituals no
because you're you're well so first of all i shouldn't say no because
what the way that i teach magic is that people will develop a regular practice
and that regular practice will contain purification elements and so in a way you are constantly in a
state of purifying so the whole model of magic of like hey i'm an ordinary guy doing ordinary
stuff and now i want to talk to this demon so i better get holy
like it's lent isn't something that i'm that i
am interested in like you're a magician you're a witch or you're not there's like i don't teach part-time magic
um but i think within that context sure yeah absolutely you know if you've just
been living it up and not doing any kind of spiritual practice and now suddenly you
want to do some advanced spiritual work probably good to to purify and fast and
all that uh fasting absolutely has a sublimating effect as well literally makes you like
um you know and and a wonderful spiritual tool um also has
you know it also can have negative effects it can it can make you
uh a little weaker uh either physically or mentally when going in if you're not used to it so
on the one hand you might be more ready to receive but you might be less ready to handle something going wrong
i tend to view things as like you know uh
cost benefit scenarios rather than good bad this good that bad
like everything is has positives and negatives like so what what's better in this scenario
um but for a general offering where you're going outside and you know like every morning i offer some incense and
libation to different classes of spirits um
nah nothing nothing special but if you are preparing something for either a single spirit or a single group of
spirits then it might be useful to do some kind of special purification
a great example would be working with nagas uh
they're notoriously vegetarian spirits so abstaining from meat and eggs for 24
hours uh is a good idea like that would be something that you
would want to do and i always say like look if you're having a party where you're inviting a bunch of people you
put out what you put out and if the vegan doesn't like that you have you know
beef out they don't eat it they eat the vegan things but if you have a vegan over for dinner
and they're the only guests and you serve steak then you're an [ __ ] like it's just that simple
so yes that is that is wonderful uh magical and culinary advice as well
jason in addition to that in terms of breaking the dichotomy and blurring the
lines we have a listener question for you from patron sarah and sarah is asking
does jason have any experiences or opinions that he would like to share
where spirits have in essence blurred the lines between magical systems for example sarah says
if you have spirits of ancestors helping open doors or smooth connections with spirits of an entirely different sort
sure so i
yeah sure there are things that happen because it's real
see that's the thing that people lose the script on when they get hunkered down into these ideas of mutually
exclusive traditions and cultures that are in bubbles that that
which is also not real but the idea that
like these are the deities of a system and therefore they never ever could cross over to another system
uh or be impacted by or is just it's that's not how anything real works magic too
so you know like if if you
like can the guy at the indian restaurant tell you where to get good turkish food
in town yeah sure
um is that like whoa
he but he's he's in an indian restaurant he should only know indian stuff whoa
like that's silly right like it's silly to think that way when in reality you could eat it both you don't need to do
any kind of paradigm shifting or or or or purification before you go from one for lunch or the other for dinner
and then you can bring the leftovers home and you know eat your souvlaki in a um
in some garlic naan and have fusion uh you know and dump curry all over it if you want so
you know the idea that magic somehow are these absolutely mutually exclusive
boxes is just it's not true it's not silly it's not
how it was ever thought of uh i mean look at
the the greek magical papyri for examples of exactly what you're talking about
um look at the the different galder box in iceland where they're they're
you know odin and archangels
affecting one another so um it's it's only
recently that we've kind of created these fake
ideas of walls that never can be crossed and the intent was good because the the
you know the opposite stream extreme sorry the opposite extreme is just as bad where
like well everything is just whatever i think about it and so if i throw some like nails and herbs in a pot it's an
ganga and i'm a palero when in fact no those things have meaning you know
um but it also doesn't mean that your pot that you just made on your own isn't
magic it's not it's just not that right so it's uh
it's it's not neat it's not tidy so of course you know ancestors uh can help point you on your way
to something that wasn't their religion just like
you know my parents bought me a copy of the red doorstop golden dawn when i was 18 because they knew i was into it and
you know hey here you go here's a nice expensive thing that you probably can't afford on your own and
you know it's a real thing that if people could just remind themselves
that like magic is real and behaves like most real things view it as mechanistically as you can
rather than the other way i i i recently uh my wife
had asked me after reading some books she's like do you have a mission statement and i said
no i'm like but if i did it would be to get normal people to think more magically
and magical people to think more normally uh because we do get up our own butts
sometimes and and it gets in the way you know jason to that very theme which which is so lovely that you're sketching
out to you know break the tight you know neat little boxes everything's so tidy we have two
listener questions for you that i think follow exactly what you brought up and the first is
uh from lucid themes who is asking could you jason share how your christian and western work feeds into your view of god
as the supreme consciousness of divinity contrasted with the atheistic buddhist worldview
i'll be honest i don't really i don't have any beliefs about one or the other um so i've i've i have
i have let myself off the hook of theology i i have uh come around
to a concept that i call the head heart in hand and i
i grabbed this off of like a new york times article about communication skills
um the head wants to know the facts of how things are where they
are what they do um and precisely what they're made of
and the heart wants to know what things mean and how they feel how they frame things
and the hand wants to know what's useful like how does this help how does it fix something how does it build something
and i think magic and philosophy and religion are really good with the hand and
really good with the heart when i think about aristotle and plato i think about
so many meaningful things aristotle's definition of friendship and plato's allegory of the cave things that we
still find useful and meaningful today as as as
framing and as intellectual tools and mental processes and then i think about the the questions
of the universe that they tried to answer as terms of how things factually exist
and god did they suck they were like wrong 100 of the time um and not only were they wrong about
everything but you weren't allowed to say that they were wrong about everything so we
you know we couldn't accept ellipses because
plato says circles are perfect and we couldn't have a heliocentric universe because aristotle says that the
earth is in the center of the solar system um and
they're obviously right because they are who they are and i just
i i kind of think magic is sucksville at
establishing these head questions um i don't i don't
care about whether there's a a god that rules over everything in the western sense or
uh that things have spontaneously arisen because of an original cause of ignorance in in in a chain of
interdependent origination uh i would just say that you know the western eastern thing is not quite
correct because there's plenty of easterners who believe in in gods and plenty of westerners like
meister eckhart who and other contemplatives who have a pretty loose view that god might not be
this guy you know
um so it's
what i am concerned with is what's next like where i i don't care about the final state even of
enlightenment or or salvation what's next what's the next step where what direction am i headed
what's the next step to get there uh what what next step opens me up to more possibilities
um more wisdom more power uh
and that's really you know what i am concerned with we're it's like if we're on the east coast
we can sit and we can argue about what the west coast is like and we can develop theories and maps and
uh but you know or we could just set out one foot in
front of the other and head west right exactly but you know we can look at people that
have made the trip and see what they have to say but then we might find a lot of what they had to
say was incorrect or you know especially if they did it a long time ago that they're using models that are not that
we have better models for now right yeah that's that's a really good point and and i know i believe you touched on
this in the past that it's it's embedded in the name or the term the occult it is hidden there should all no matter how
many veils you rip off the shrine of the occult there's always another 60
trillion veils that are there just waiting for you to explore you know yeah
and so i i think you know we have this wonderful thing called science
and i like to let it be science um and the cool thing is science doesn't
really try to answer questions of meaning or or you know and sometimes it touches it's useful
but it doesn't try to be the only useful thing um so
you know when it comes to explaining the definite truth of how the universe works
i always say look you know alan rick is it alan rickman can come down it as metatron and and
physically touch me and then break out a whiteboard and show me how exactly the map of heaven works and manifests into
reality and if i don't get anything from that that's like
okay and this is meaningful and and can help us improve and and comfort us or or give us tools to think better about the
world then i don't really care because i don't have
any way to verify it doesn't you know some dude appeared out of nowhere
and you know as well jason in terms of of of that of you know finding if it works keep doing it find out what's
useful and again not being afraid to as you say you know get rid of the tidy little boxes we have another listener
question for you from octavian graves and octavian is asking after creating a devotional relationship
with a deity like hikate could one jason invoke her either right before or during a traditional solomonic
evocation of a goetic spirit for added protection and are there other ways that hikate can be implemented into
traditional solomonic magic sure yeah um you know like i said it's been done before it's been done in the past um
and so yeah you you can invoke hikate as yet another power there does sort of get to be like a um
like at a certain point you reach like a saturation of like how much crap can we invoke and throw in here that's actually
doing something like is it really adding power to have hikate there uh maybe it is
um maybe she's filling a gap that isn't filled by
those other powers but maybe not if it's just a matter of like well i've got it so i'm gonna throw at it then i'm
sort of like maybe not like like why over it
why create more complexity rather than less you should have a reason for it
um so but yeah you can absolutely there's you know um there's no reason not to
unless your view of christianity is such that like all other entities are demons and that must be destroyed then
obviously doing that would make no sense and as well jason uh you mentioned in the book that with all these different
traditions sometimes you know friendly conjuration is needed sometimes as you say maybe it's needed to be a little bit
bossy one thinks of the traditional uh grimoires and especially when it comes to things like a charge we have a
listener question for you from patron scott dilly who is asking and saying hello sir i have found that a
lot of spirit request has to do with the charge in other words have the charge carefully worded and with planetary or
hepatical spirits for example recited at the right time without deviation one reason scott says for this being that
the actual communion as far as i can tell mainly consists of something like a flicker of a candle a change of
temperature knocking birds flying by something happening in the moment but on the other hand scott says i also hear
advice to simply ask the spirits what other abilities they may have which entails a conversation to one's sensible
judgments judgments would you mind sharing jason some words
on the blurry line between the confirmation of a spirit's presence and the point of clear concise communion
yeah so um let so let's talk about this you know
you're giving the example of planetary spirits who you have called upon
to do something related to this the planetary sphere so there
the timing matters because you are using the system of either horror astrology or planetary hours and and
um which may or may not be intrinsically impactful on the world but
within this view within the system within this uh piece of magic that's been
communicated that's the tool that you're using the information that you're going by
and so you're you're sticking with it and then you get the result
and this resonance right that's what the red you know you get even more than resonance you get a
little confirmation that that flicker that something to let you know that the work
is done and that's great uh and that's all that you needed from
that because ultimately even if you're setting it up like a full evocation you're doing a spell
you want something to happen you want the spirit to do it and
there's not really a reason for the spirit to show up in and and
like bend over backwards just to do what it does so it's a separate operation
entirely from contacting the spirit and asking what else it can do um
so if you want to reach out to a spirit and ask what else it can do my advice would be
uh you know if you're not doing purification rituals then purify
uh set up the time to meditate the time for silence
the and that includes time after you've said your conjurations to to mentally reach out use some of the spirit skills
in the book uh to reach out very often there's a spirit there who's who's
like meeting you 75 80 percent of the way but people are like
you know they they don't even like never mind the fact that their senses there can't scry to meet it there
sometimes people don't even shut up long enough like like you know
i'm gonna read this conjuration and i've read the conjuration for 10 minutes and now i stop
no spirit okay next stop spirit no okay next it's like dude it's coming from another
dimension like shut up for a minute give it a second like you like get give give it a second um
reach out like use some of the spirit skills reach out feel
ask for you know if you want to ask like a
blanket of what can you do what i like to do is sort of start with
what it's been said that the spirit can do and then
branch out from there maybe ask specific things like can you also
affect computers can you also affect you know the the you know bureaucracies
uh things like this so something that relates to what the work that has primarily been done
and that the spirit is known for even if it's related to the planet um sometimes it could be related to the
history of the spirit even not in the grimoire itself but you know some spirits are
uh you know they're they're older than what the dictionary infernal said about them
so you can look at the history of a start day and ask asteroth about things that might
be under a start days domain um and then yeah you you you have to sit
and be receptive or work with a with a seer uh which has its own troubles
at times um and then if you don't get anything then watch for dreams like if you don't get
anything that's a very clear communication well did you get anything that was a flash that was an inspiration
that was symbolism maybe you should explore that maybe you should look for omens maybe you should
look at dreams that occur sometimes spirits that are trying to answer you
in the circle but just you you know can't will speak to you in a dream
um so these things happen and then you evaluate it is it useful is it
actionable etc etc and then you test it
because i mean the reality is you could get a spirit that says oh yeah i can do that
turns out not really all that great at doing that after all even though it said it was
whereas somebody else maybe they conjured that planetary spirit of uh of you know of of venus
and they didn't get anything big but when they did a divination to say
can you help me get a promotion at work they get a positive result and then they invoke that spirit for the
promotion at work and get it boom so there we there there can be at times a disconnect or a non-relation between
the paranormal psychic experience of communication with the spirit
or the feelings or or phenomena and
magical results sometimes sometimes people can have these intense rituals that wind up not doing anything
what they were feeling so intensely is all the presence and energy and effort just kind of circulating around having
nowhere to go yes coming back to that theme that you've touched on jason which is just is
it useful does it work what can i do what is what is the next step and um i i know we have a few listener questions as
well that that tie into this theme and again coming back to um an entity you are very familiar with uh hecate and so
we have a listener question uh from patron jez who is asking and saying hi jason first of all let me say how
much i enjoy listening to your interviews with alex on glitch bottle oh thank you jazz and and jez says i think
your mixture jason of hilarity and knowledge brings a great sense of vitality and results in
excellent esoteric listening my question jez says relates to your suggestion of boiled eggs as offerings to hikate
my dog dexter who is black and also sometimes comes and barks and acts weirdly when i'm communicating with
akate has been stealing eggs off of the altar i'm wondering if this is a good thing jess says like the offerings are
going directly to the intended source or whether dexter is just a gobbly guts i just feed him the eggs now and after
three days but i wonder whether leaving the eggs at a crossroads would be more effective thank you jazz
so um you know it it comes
like it comes into how i think of things again
could it be that hekate is utilizing her dog to consume the eggs sure could it be that the dog just gobbles
the eggs sure uh you know if it was chocolate you were
leaving out i would say i don't care if it's a cat day like don't let your dog eat the chocolate
uh because it's not safe for dogs eggs are safe for dogs um
that said you know eating like four eggs every you know is is maybe not the greatest diet for dogs
but um [Music] leaving them at a crossroads is
perfectly fine there's nothing wrong with your dog eating the eggs unless it makes a big mess in your house
i would just take it as like a sign a pat on the back like dogs are related to hecate the dog is eating the hecate and
offerings that's it i wouldn't read too much into it i wouldn't then start like
you know set up a shrine for the dog as like the guardian of like hecate's representative on earth or anything
uh but people do um which you know that's where i'm sort of like
calmed down like it's just it's a thing it happened it was cool you can take it as a pat on the back but
it doesn't mean that you need to you know exalt your dog or anything so
yeah i mean it could be could not be don't know does it matter
like take it as a pat on the back or take it as just hey that happens well that is definitely just again
keeping an open mind and just being aware of of of what's shifting around in the situation is excellent uh and jason
ii uh speaking of hikante uh we have another listener question for you from jt lopez uh who is saying jason
in your book and your website you frequently emphasize working with hikate and saint cyprian do you believe there's
an an inherent magical power that is exclusive to these intermediary spirits or
are they perhaps just a medium an idea for our consciousness to crutch on when performing tasks relevant
to the character of these spirits maybe another way to ask this question is do you believe something inherently magical
happens when performing evocations in the name of saint cyprian and hekate or are these just ways of organizing
thought just as with the arbitel if so then could we theoretically go to the chaos
magic route and invoke spirits in the name of dr strange to the same effect as hikate or saint cyprian
no um so no i i don't believe that scene cyprian or hakate are just aspects of
the mind um i they they are not they surprise in all sorts of ways
and so no they are not just convenient mental constructs to do magic through um
at all and that that goes for most deities um
that said you know even if that was your view your own model
then winds up poopooing the doctor strange idea anyway because the model of of these beings
being mental constructs where the being isn't important the belief is important right
well there is no way that
that you can generate belief in dr strange
in a way that matches the faith that
people have in something that they believe to be real so i don't care how much chaos magic
paradigm shifting and sitting there for an hour before your ritual going i really really believe in batman i really
believe in batman i really believe i really really really believe you can hype yourself up with attention
but you your belief
if it was a measurable thing it's never going to match the belief in something that people think is real
and it's never going to match the faith or belief that people who are genuinely devoted to something
have so even by its own rules the model fails at effectiveness
like it falls apart at effectiveness but thankfully the model is garbage anyway i don't i
don't think that uh
belief in a thing really affects the results very much at all in fact
um and so no i don't hold saint cyprian or hecate or any other being as
uh as simply just a construct of your mind that's not to say that there's no
overlap there's not to say that there's no element of interconnectedness so
you know the other extreme is like while people like hecate is real and her name really is hecate and like even if there
was no ancient greece her name would be hecate like that doesn't make any sense like
and all the attributes that we attribute to her based upon the human culture and mythologies that we know her through
you're telling me she would still have all those of course not but just like us if we
went through if we were raised in a different place with different experiences we would be
different people it doesn't mean that we don't exist so
we need to start we need to stop pigeonholing these beings
into these simplistic kindergarten models and
like if they are more subtle than people then we should look at people as the
level of like wow people are pretty deep and subtle already so if i'm treating this god
as if it's just like all one thing then i'm probably on the wrong track
so mega mom think think bigger think interconnected
think that you know think think rumsfeldian think that you know there are no knowns
and there are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns and there's more out there than we know and
more out there than we can know so you know you know jason this touches directly on
your earlier point about the a need for a mega model uh and so we we do have to that point another listener question for
you from patron lucid themes who is asking and saying receiving initiations from spirits into their sphere stealing
uh fraud or ro's terminology is solid macro scale magic to learn to mediate their powers
though lucid is asking are there any other types of long-term rights excluding the abram ellen right that you
jason think really highly of oh god uh i mean there are tons these these exist all over um
i mean everywhere in the world the tantric empowerments and rituals that that
you build the generation stage and then through the completion stage um they're just one example um
there are you know rights of
shamanism related to plants where it's it's not just going and tripping there's an
ongoing relationship and initiation and ability to
uh traverse realms and mediate powers there you know that when you look at
uh anyone interested in saint cyprien should take a look at the role of saint cyprian in like san pedro shamanism in
the mesas uh that that basically the altars on the ground that
the shaman use and see how they mediate uh the powers so yeah there's all sorts um
and i mean i i have a respect for uh you know for most magic i i i have a respect for
you know even brand new things with fake histories i have a respect for wicca i
have a respect for the simon necronomicon i you know uh things that other people would just
make fun of um because i you know i mean for some people it's about
history is the mark of authenticity if it's old then it's true to me that's like
we don't do this with anything other than magic like there's nothing like if i'm going
for a medical procedure i'm like well who's got the oldest textbook that's what i want to know like who's
who's got the oldest most out of date medical procedures that's what i want uh says no one um and then there's an
idea of cultural authenticity like whatever is the most culturally authentic and and
that is really vital to some people and and less to others and i think people violate it in disrespectful ways
and like disregard it i think that's that's bad just like i think disregarding
history is is bad as well but then there's also functional authenticity
and uh you know when it comes to functional authenticity it's not always locked into
[Music] history or culture so you know jason that touches on something
that i think a lot of listeners will pick up on and have picked up on in in your courses and your books which is
you have so much experience with these traditions different traditions but you also have a lot of depth and i think
that leads to this listener question from patron casper a and casper is asking and saying hi jason you have a
tremendous amount of breadth in your background with exposure to a wide range of traditions how would you jason say
that has informed your engagement with spirits and do you have any tips for building a practice that is both
diverse while also staying authentic yeah um you know it's affected my
relationship with spirits because i i couldn't
view magic through just one lens because i had other lenses available
and that my underlying reason for getting involved in magic lies in direct experience
before i had any exposure to magical traditions i had experiences with spirits
so when i get involved in magic it was with an eye towards that so
there's an underlying reality that supersedes whatever one tradition
says right it's not that those traditions are not important or informative they are deeply so
um but it's just like with food again
you know there are underlying realities of taste and and like
you know salt sweet savory i forget what the fourth one is
but um you know but
every cult every culinary tradition plays with those same fundamentals
tastes um and so that's part of it
now as for the advice as to how to tackle it it would be to
go a little slower than you can at this point
and i have to stress that this is a little different than the advice that i would have given
when i was coming up because the problems today are different when i was coming up there was not a lot
of information there was no the market wasn't flooded with magical books um
we had comparatively little and had to seek it out and and find whatever we could
so i just you know i grew up in central new jersey and i found anyone that could talk about magic at all
and before i was 21 that led me to befriend uh anakba john muir and reynolds uh it
led me to to befriend a root worker uh a center a
a rosicrucian teacher and then eventually uh you know a wiccan and and some thalamites and
um i had to with the idea that all this is real that there's an underlying reality
i had these traditions to dig into and engage with and people to talk to um
and then over time you know you get your driver's license and the internet gets invented and
you can get out and learn a lot more a lot faster but now you're in an age of
both information saturation and misinformation it's like somebody took the library of
alexandria and said here is all the information that was in it but
we're gonna take it and we're gonna rip it all up and we're gonna hide it in a hundred thousand other books
so your issue is to go less fast than you can
like if you see something that catches your eye
and you get a book about it then take a little while months years to dig in
rather than yeah yeah yeah i was interested in kimbanda for a couple weeks and now i
saw this uh you know i saw a movie about kathmandu so now i'm going to start
researching that now i'm going to start researching this and now i'm going to start researching this
i might have been utterly lost in today's world if i if i came up because i was so hungry
um so you have better information but it's hidden amongst a lot of misinformation
and then just a lot of redundant information and
people that have built these walls that are like well we're over here and
they're over there never the twain shall meet whereas when i was coming up anybody
interested in magic was interested in anybody at all that was interested in magic so you'd sit in a room with
lukumi practitioners and people from the temple of set and people from the oto and the golden dawn and and wiccans
and you'd all figure out what you could do together so um
just take it a little slow be respectful uh you know if you
if you learn something give credit where credit is due uh you know i'm always saying you know
when i picked this up here and i learned this from so and so and yeah be respectful don't misrepresent a
tradition uh you know if you do something that
deviates or even just like completely is like i grabbed this and now i'm going into like weirdo wacko
sorcerer land say i grabbed this idea from there but it's not this thing you shouldn't think
of it as this thing but people do the opposite don't they they they're like oh yes this is voodoo when like no
it's not like it's not that anybody would recognize absolutely yeah that's that's such an
incredibly valuable uh perspective just to keep that in mind about the flow of information and frankly that's one of
the excellent things i really enjoy about consorting with spirits is it it takes this very vast um
menagerie of information and it and it presents it in a way that is very accessible and i think jason uh
that leads to one of the last questions about the book definitely want to get into your your future projects um but
what else should people keep in mind when they first pick up a copy of your book or they keep
working through consorting with spirits what are some of the two or three big things that you just want them to
remember yeah you know um keep in keep the idea
that like use [Music]
people as like relationships with people and the way people are
as your model for how to treat spirits how to form relationships with spirits whether it's
likely that a spirit would would
like harm you or something right like peop there's some people out there
they're just like oh well i asked hikate to bless this talisman on the dark of the moon and then the next
morning i stubbed my toe so clearly she hates me and i'm cursed and you know
no like if you know no no that's not likely at all and um
and unfortunately there will be a hundred people there going yes yes she does she hates you and now you must
cleanse and follow my you know and then you know like i will cleanse her for you and
uh so yeah just you know get a little grounded think a little mechanically about magic think about spirits as if
there are people and think about people as if they are spirits that
um they are not as
independent we are not as independent as as we sometimes think we are very interdependent
um and you know realize too that
you should have some ability to protect yourself if something goes wrong but you
shouldn't like let fear rule you like things don't go wrong all the time
as a rule but some people just think that they do like magic somehow
is good enough to get you in trouble but not good enough to get you out the the summoning works but not the
dismissal um but and that's horror movie thinking
it's not real authentic magical thinking keeping it practical and and really not being
afraid to experiment and to try new things that is such incredible advice and i i really hope that uh the
listeners appreciate it as much as i do and uh make sure to check out the video and podcast descriptions below to um get
your own copy of jason's book consorting with spirits but jason you're always busy working on something and i think
that this next and last uh listener question from patron lucid themes really
encapsulates this and lucid is saying i was waiting for this episode after finishing jason's book just last week hi
mr miller with this latest book out and your upcoming arcane audio on the mechanics of magic do you jason have any
other plans that you could share for what is coming next oh well
um you know uh it's it's summer and i do have i can't i have plans that i'm
working on but i can't share it so there may be a book sooner than usual there's usually my books come out like
two three years apart there might be a book sooner than that but
i can't talk about it too much yet and it's summertime so i'm just trying to keep keep the classes i have going
and enjoying life in the summer and uh promote this book for now and
you know there'll probably be another arcane audio here and there those those classes you can find them all on my
website with uh there's an archive of all the arcane audios now i think there's 27 of them
but you know those are things that like they don't fit anywhere else like i get an idea of like i want to give a class
in this it's like it's deeper than a blog post but not a book or a course but i can devote three hours one night
talking with it so i give these occasional zoom classes um and yeah so all the recordings are up so
mechanics of magic i think went pretty well awesome awesome well definitely make
sure to check out the uh podcast and video description uh to check out jason's website as well as his
latest book to pick up your own copy is called consorting with spirits and i know that uh the patrons of the
podcast will be enjoying a little bit of an after show but for the main part of the podcast uh practicing magician
author strategic sorcerer jason miller as always thank you just so so much for for taking the time and
joining us on the podcast today oh thank you for having me it was a real pleasure [Music]
Heads up!
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