Download Subtitles for The Skeptic Who Found God Healing Video

today's conversation from a spiritual

perspective is one of the most

nutrient-dense conversations we've had

on a stronger Faith there's so much in

this one that it easily could have been

a two or even a three-part series but we

decided to keep it all together in one

Dan Pinkney and his wife yat have lived

their lives walking in the gifts of the

Spirit they worked as pastors around the

globe planted churches around the globe

directed spiritual Healing Centers

served as Deliverance

ministers have been agents for radical

healing and of course are teachers of

the way of Christ with a strong

knowledge of

scripture interestingly enough Dan is a

presbyterian pastor and was raised a

cessationist cessationists as you may

know believe that certain spiritual

gifts such as prophecy healing and

miracles essentially stopped when the

first apostles died it's a common

Viewpoint inside many modern

denominational

churches but Dan has walked a very

different life and has witnessed and

participated in the miraculous for

decades today he shares many of those

experiences along with scores of

Priceless eye-opening spiritual truths

rooted in

scripture this episode might be one to

have a notebook hand handy because I

think it's a master class in Walking In

God's Supernatural power please meet Dan

Pinkney I'm fascinated by many aspects

of your

story on a

call a couple of weeks ago and

everything that you were talking about

it's like oh my goodness this is this is

the point of everything that we do here

effectively you live a life

walking

in

healing casting out of demons walking in

the

miraculous as as just how you operate in

life it's really what you do it's your

calling it's what you do on a daily

basis but most Christians I know don't

live that lifestyle in fact it's not

even anywhere close to that we're just

trying to survive the day in a lot of

cases I know this is kind of a too much

baked into one question but how did you

come to live a

lifestyle walking in the Supernatural

aspects of

God very good question I grew up in a

traditional Christian home my dad was a

pastor and the supernatural was not

anything that was talked about or

preached um but probably one of of the

the biggest influences on me was uh for

10 Summers uh while I was a student I

sold books uh with Southwestern Company

out of Nashville door too and they sent

us to different parts of the country and

there uh because I was selling mostly

Bible type books uh I ran into people

from every kind of denomination and um I

remember running into Catholic

charismatics in masipa Long Island and I

was just blown away uh by their love for

the Lord and they were seeing amazing

things happening uh people were getting

saved all over the place and uh because

there was a Catholic priest in their

Parish who uh had come to know the Lord

and he was teaching Evangelistic Bible

studies and and um so uh ran into

charismatic episcopalians of course

Assemblies of God people and so their

experiences were very different from

what I was traditionally EXP opposed to

and um my background would have sort of

cast doubt on some of their experiences

and uh theologically I I wouldn't have

been in agreement with where most

charismatics are coming from but as I

saw their lives their love for the Lord

their Joy um just people were coming to

know Christ all around them just by

virtue of how they saw them living uh

their experiences with the Supernatural

and uh so I thought wellow I I want some

of that you know and so that made me

open theologically at least to

consider point of view that I hadn't

been raised with so that was sort of the

starting point I would

say I think about how I was raised as

well so I grew up in a Baptist Church

and everybody for the most part went to

the Baptist Church Presbyterian Church

uh Methodist Church uh Catholic was

probably a little bit smaller from where

I was was yeah

from and then I think there was a maybe

a little more charismatic church

somewhere out on the highway they that

church wasn't near the big

denominational churches I grew up in a

small

town and and that's kind of the the the

lens that I saw things from we tried to

live a a morally sound life but you know

everybody was in some sort of Judgment

of of other denominations and and things

and it was there wasn't a lot of

um there was really no mention of the

supernatural occurring today

[Music]

we the Bible stories were taught as

things that happened in and that sounded

pretty amazing but at no point do I ever

re

recall imagining that that happened in

real life certainly not today

we never talked about the Demonic in

church same here my mine was

Presbyterian background yeah no

expectation of any of those kind of

things happening that we read in the

Bible happening today fill with it yeah

yeah New Testament I mean Jesus spent I

don't know a third of his time if not

more healing and casting out demons

maybe more than that but it's filled

with it and amazing that I didn't hear a

sermon on casting out of demons and I

think where that may come from is this

notion that those things don't happen

today it happened back then and these

miraculous signs needed to kind of occur

with the apostles in the first century

to kind of get the Christian Church up

and going and separate it from what was

the you know Judaism back then but that

those things

stopped yeah main idea I think is that

uh those

Miracles uh attested to uh the truth of

Christ and the written word of God in

you know the the first century and so

many theologians who hold what we'd call

the cessationist point of view would say

that once the um uh New Testament was

finished being written that there was no

longer any need for the miraculous to

attest to its truth and so therefore by

the time the last Apostles died or by

the time the scripture was finished

being written then those kind of

miraculous charismatic uh so-called

gifts ceased uh because we have all we

need now in the Bible is is that point

of

view okay so that cessationism yes MH

yeah what you're operating in and let's

be honest a great number of the episodes

on this podcast alone and uh

reveal is that that's not true right so

what's your position on

cessationism well uh in my book I deal

with uh historical accounts of Miracles

um uh St Augustine who lived in the

400s uh he first started out being

cessationist

but then uh in his experience he he saw

a blind person uh receiving their sight

he saw a number of other miraculous

healings personally and so he said

there's so many that I I just can't

write them all down or I'll never get

this work finished and I don't know if

he was referring to the city of God that

you know he was writing but um um John

Knox um and other uh well-known

reformers um

uh it's interesting Spurgeon who is

heralded as one of the greatest

preachers he was a Baptist preacher uh

in his autobiography he tells uh the

story of this man who was sitting in the

congregation and all of a sudden in the

middle of his sermon uh Spurgeon points

at him and he said you had your business

of selling shoes open last Sabbath and

you made uh so much money you sold so

many shoes and he gave the exact figures

and you would sell your soul for being

open on the Sabbath you know back then

you know businesses closed on on the

Lord's day you know and this man was

just blown away uh that was his first

time to visit the church and how

Spurgeon would have known those details

and exactly the the you know details

that he gave was what had happened uh he

he just left they shocked and um he

didn't come back to the church for a

number of weeks because he thought what

else is Spurgeon reveal about my life

you know and uh but finally he did and

he came to know the Lord and uh and he

tells the story and so Spurgeon said

that U this was not at all uncommon in

his experience of preaching where God

would just supernaturally reveal details

about people in the audience and he

would call them out and speak and and

this would just blow people away and it

would show them that you know the power

of God still is at work today giving uh

what we'd call words of knowledge or

prophetic words uh today and so uh here

was a man of God that everyone reveres

uh but yet he experienced these U Gifts

that most secessionists would say are no

longer in operation today yeah when we

grow up in Baptist churches and and

Presbyterian churches that at least the

ones I've been in who don't teach any of

these

things we we just sort of

operate that way and I'm assuming that's

kind of where you were growing up but

then you got exposed to different things

so are you saying that these stories of

Spurgeon and Knox and others Augustine

that

you studied or read opened your mind to

the possibility of

this idea that the miraculous still

occurred yeah actually um yeah actually

reading those stories uh came much later

so um my experience in this um evolved

gradually so first seeing Christians of

all different you know backgrounds in in

my selling books experience that that

helped me a lot and then when I went to

Seminary out in

California um I visited visited churches

like uh Calvary Chapel or Chuck Smith

you was preaching in Costa Mesa there I

visited The Vineyard Church and uh uh

visited some of these other churches

just you know out of curiosity to see uh

you know the Crystal Cathedral and so

forth and and uh because I wanted to

learn uh from these different Ministries

and famous you know preachers and so

forth um but um later on I went to a

seminary that's a presbyterian Seminary

called Reformed Theological Seminary in

Jackson Mississippi and that's a very

traditional uh Evangelical uh

Presbyterian Seminary and they you know

Place absolutely no emphasis or no

teaching on any of these kind of things

like healing or casting out demons or

you know the

supernatural um but when we went as

missionaries to uh Brazil uh to Ecuador

uh because of my background I encouraged

our elders we started a church and had

seven elders and so I would have them

standing in the front uh of the church

during the time of singing and we'd have

you know maybe 30 minutes of uh singing

and so forth and the congregation was

invited to come down to the front and

talk with the elders and ask prayer you

know with the elders and uh because the

singing was going on nobody could

overhear the

conversation and so uh we had some oil

up there as well and and uh so uh

sometimes people would ask prayer for

healing and the elders would anoint them

and pray for them and I remember it was

uh was sort of funny one of our elders

um ekart Wulf he he's a surgeon from um

Germany he he was a missionary with HC

JB's Hospital uh and um he sort of was a

little skeptical about about healing and

and so forth and uh but uh after he had

prayed for a number of people people and

they came back later on and said you

know when you prayed for me I felt like

I I was healed and uh and they had been

healed and so that sort of changed his

theology you know and uh and so a number

of the elders uh experienced people

being healed as they prayed for them and

so there uh while uh wasn't really

radical um we we saw some of those kind

of experiences although I have to say um

uh I do remember a case one of our

elders uh he um his two children every

night would uh uh especially the oldest

daughter who was maybe around five or so

she would wake up in the middle of the

night uh terrified and run to her

parents' bedroom and get in bed with

them because she was terrified and um

and this this was happening for a long

long time and the kids uh she and her

brother were always constantly sick and

so I said to the Elder I said we we

probably need to come come over to your

house and you know see if there's

something there well I saw some pictures

of saints and so forth Catholic saints

and uh some of them were valuable and

and uh and even though he he was no

longer practicing Catholic uh uh you

know he didn't want to get rid of them

because they you know they were so

valuable and and I explained how in the

second commandment you know God tells us

not to make graven images not to you

know bow down to them or worship them or

you pray to them and and uh because

God's a jealous God and and this is um I

think a thing that I find helps people

understand this concept um we think God

being jealous doesn't sound very good

you know U but I I explained to people

uh you know if you're married uh how

would you feel if your spouse had a

picture of a former boyfriend or

girlfriend uh there on the nightstand

next to the bed uh you wouldn't be too

happy right uh and the reason is is that

when you got married your spouse um

promised exclusive love to you uh and

that's yours by virtue of the Covenant

of marriage and so God because uh he

deserves our exclusive love and devotion

uh and worship uh when we have pictures

or objects uh that other people use to

for their worship you know in our house

or wherever uh um that provokes him and

uh and so and that also opens up the

door uh sometimes for demonic oppression

and uh so long story short we went to

that uh Elder's home and he got rid of

these things and um we prayed in the uh

in in every room in the house commanding

evil spirits to go uh in Jesus name and

uh from that day on the girl was no

longer awoken at night uh and terrified

she slept through the whole time and

both kids stopped getting sick and so we

we could see that there was a a definite

clearing of some sort of evil presence

there in the house once we had had done

that so that was down in Ecuador okay so

what you're

describing is that there were demonic

presences in this

home that were there likely C

of Idols that were there that people

used to worship something other than God

yeah so you're casting out demons from

this home

M I don't know many Presbyterian

pastors who are going into people's

homes to remove demons or demonic

presences from their home so that they

can experience

Freedom something happened to you as a

presbyterian Pastor yeah that made you

even think that you know maybe they

suggest coming to counseling or hey we

got a a member here in the church that's

a neurologist maybe you should go see

them or something like that um we'll put

you on the prayer list right right what

happened for you to

begin even

considering doing something like that or

having the elders not only just pray for

people did you guys stumble into these

healings that were taking place as pre

non-believing uh Elders were praying for

people well I think um you know in in

James chapter 5 says if anyone is sick

let him call the Elders and the elders

will come and anoint the person the sick

person with oil and the prayer of faith

will heal the sick person and if he's

committed sins they'll be forgiven and

says therefore confess your sins one to

another and pray for one another that

you may be healed and so that was the

basis that I used to have the elders

praying for the people you know who were

sick and um it's interesting that

passage talks about confessing our sins

you know once in another and uh uh We've

we've discovered you know now later

because we didn't have them do that when

they would come forward you know for

prayer you know in the church service

but uh what we have seen is that um very

often uh sickness um demonic oppression

uh different things like that or mental

difficulties emotional difficulties uh

spiritual uh malays um often times they

have a root cause and that root cause is

sin that the UN repentant sin that needs

to be confessed and renounced and

repented of and and then um once they do

that then as James 5 says the prayer of

faith and now the one who prays needs to

have faith that you know the person can

be healed and um uh then it says that

person will be um healed interestingly

I'll just bring this out uh the word in

Greek used there the prayer of faith

will heal some versions say will save

the sick person because that word in

Greek is soo s o o zo o and that's the

name of our ministry Soo Chattanooga and

that word in Greek is used uh to mean to

save so it says you will call his name

Jesus for he will Sozo his people from

their sins and it also means to heal as

in James 5 that I just mentioned but the

woman who had the issue of blood you

know she said to herself if I just touch

the ham of His Garment I'll be soed I'll

be healed and uh after she was healed

Jesus said to her take uh Faith um uh

daughter your faith has uh soed you and

has healed you and then that word also

is used for deliverance so when Jesus

cast out the Legion of demons from the

man into the pigs uh it was said in Luke

there that Jesus had soed him uh so the

word Soo has a broad meaning that means

to save to heal to deliver so when Jesus

came he came not just to save our souls

from hell but he came to save the whole

person Spirit soul and body and um and

that's what the word Soo entails which

was written in the original Greek of the

New Testament that's right so that was

the language that was used to write the

original manuscripts that we know as the

New Testament that's right and the word

is soo I've heard that quite a bit in

the last several years Soo prayer and so

of ministry and I want to get into that

in a little bit but where you're coming

from now is a place where you are

walking in that though you were

raised with sort of this

cessationist um Foundation

right what broke the cessationist

foundation when did you truly understand

in

realize that when Jesus gave the

authority to the

72 to go and uh trample on snakes and

scorpions to cast out demons to heal the

sick he says I have given you Authority

MH when did you come to realize that he

didn't confine that to the 72 but he was

making that available to all

his followers from that point on I think

one of the earliest experiences that

opened me up to this was when I was 16

years old and that was my first summer

to sell books uh with the southwestern

company and um they had a week-long

training in

Nashville and so I was there and um in

our particular division in that week we

had about 400 you know people in this

Auditorium and they had invited uh a

pastor to come and speak to us uh he had

been the number one salesman for the

company for years when he was a student

and um so he got up and he started

speaking and while he was speaking all

of a sudden this girl in the middle of

the audience gets up stands on top of

her chair and starts screaming out

curses to Jesus and and blaspheming and

and uh all kinds of swear words and and

I mean we were in shock all of a as you

can imagine you know and um so you're

just at a sales meeting I'm at a sales

meeting right yeah and uh in a hotel in

Nashville and and so um some of the

sales managers tell her you know sit

down she refuses they literally had to

carry her out of the room and so that

Pastor went out with her and uh one of

the sales managers tried to carry on the

meeting and and we're all sort of shell

shot you know wondering what in the

world was that you know and um so about

20 minutes later the pastor and this

girl come in and they go up to the front

she's weeping and uh she tells her story

she said that um when she was uh and she

was probably around 19 years old from

Southern California um she said that uh

when she was younger she started playing

with an ouija board and um as a result

of that she said two demons came uh in

her and she could talk with them and uh

they would talk to her and she went to a

um Bill Gothard conference uh called uh

Basic Youth conflicts I think it was

called uh you know sessions back back

then this was long long time ago and

while she was there at that conference

one of the Somebody Prayed over her and

cast one of the demons out but uh the

other one still stayed in and that demon

would periodically just seize control

over her and make her do things that she

would never do you know on her own and

so it just happened that while she was

in that sales presentation uh with the

pastor speaking this demon just took

control of her and made her stand up on

her chair and started cursing God and so

forth and uh and so when she went out uh

the pastor led her to faith in Christ

and and um and so when he came in uh and

she came in after telling her story the

pastor then presented the gospel to to

the group and he had what we'd call an

altar call and about 25 students went

forward and then we all went outside to

the pool of the uh hotel and he baptized

the 25 kids right there on the spot and

um so that was probably my first

exposure to someone who was demonized

uh and have that demon take control of

the person and make them do something

that they would never do uh on their own

and then see that that demon was cast

out and so I think that that kind of

opened my my mind to this whole idea of

people being demonized and it's not just

over in Africa somewhere but you know

it's it's something here as well and

you've seen

it more than that in your life since

that time oh yeah many many times uh so

so even if they staged that right let's

say let's say he had planted this girl

in the audience and you know some young

unsuspecting students fell for it that's

just hypothetical right

MH that began to build your faith in

something that wasn't

real how would you describe what has

happened since that time in your life

yeah it's it's come in stages so one of

the important stages too was um after we

came back from

Equador uh I was invited to be uh a

pastor at Fourth Presbyterian Church in

Bethesda Maryland uh fourth is a

historic church uh started in 1828 and I

think President Lincoln attended there

some and and uh other presidents and

vice presidents and Dan Quail went there

you know some as well and um and so uh

in fact dick halson who had been the

senior pastor went on to be the chaplain

of the senate for 13 years um but I was

asked to be the pastor of evangelism and

missions and um so for evangelism uh we

decided to bring the alpha course uh

that comes from England uh to our church

and we invited Nikki Gumble from Holy

Trinity Brompton in London uh to come

with his team and to give us a training

and uh we uh three-day training and we

had about 550 pastors and leaders around

the Mid-Atlantic area come for that and

and part of that course it's a 12-week

um basically introduction to the

Christian faith and the idea is you uh

try to have a group where you know maybe

half are Christians and half are

non-christians and each week you get

together you have a dinner and then you

have this talk and then there's

discussion after the talk and the

non-christians are invited to share

whatever they think if they you know

don't agree or don't believe in any of

this stuff you know they're perfectly uh

um free to express their feelings but

what happens over the course of this 12

weeks of getting together is as as maybe

someone has has put it exposure to God's

people plus exposure to God's word over

time generally can lead a person to

Faith and that's often what would happen

in the alpha course and uh but they

would have a weekend away where they

would have a number of talks and those

talks were on the Holy Spirit and also

on healing and um and so people would be

invited to ask to be filled with the

Holy Spirit and they' also be invited uh

to ask for prayer for healing and um and

so on those weekends away uh there would

be people who would be healed there

would be people who sometimes would

receive a gift of speaking in tongues

and and uh so this was not your typical

you know Anglican it comes from the

Anglican Church uh you know type of

approach nor Presbyterian um now i'

would say that uh my senior pastor uh Dr

Rob Norris he he asked me to give the

talks on the Holy Spirit and on healing

myself rather than use the videos uh so

that uh perhaps we could tone it down a

little bit you know uh but uh but

definitely uh we would see uh

Supernatural things happen we'd see

people healed and and so that kind of

exposed me a little more even in terms

of seeing seeing God's Supernatural you

know power at work and that uh

Evangelistic approach has been used by

I'm guessing probably around 40 million

people now worldwide it's in I think

over a 100 languages and and uh it's

been used greatly by God so that was

another stepping stone you know to um

seeing God work in in an unusual way um

from there we went to be church planning

missionaries in uh Rome Italy uh and we

were there for 10 years and there's

where uh I think we we had a a major uh

experience with with seeing someone who

was U demonized or being uhu tormented

by demons being set free so one of our

early converts um uh he um had been a

nuclear physicist but then when uh Italy

went green and it's it's funny they they

they went green meaning they didn't use

any nuclear energy so they just imported

nuclear energy from

France model for being green that's

right um so he started working with a

telephone company but uh uh so he came

to Christ but he he told us that um

every night he would feel this this hand

grab his throat and start to choke him

and he'd wake up and there'd be nothing

there and um he said that uh the

television would turn on by itself at

times random times and uh the house

would be closed up but all of a sudden a

wind would blow through the house uh in

the middle of winter they'd smell this

fragrance of flowers in the house he his

wife and his uh University aged daughter

were um always sick and um just all

kinds of really strange things happening

to them so I said wow I said we we need

to come and visit you know you and your

house and so so uh my wife and I went

and um uh in one of his guest rooms the

walls were covered with pictures of

Hindu gods and uh he was a well-traveled

person he he had Buddhas he had uh

probably Mayan or Aztec uh figures of

gods you know he had all kinds of books

on the occult he had a huge library and

and uh pictures of Mary of sa Saints and

you know so forth and and um so I

explained to him that second commandment

about not having graven images and so

forth and and so I said you need to get

rid of these things so he did he took

all those things out threw them in the

dumpster and um after he had done that

we went through the house and prayed

commanding any spirit that was there in

any of the rooms that they had to go in

Jesus name after we did that um no

longer did he have a hand grabbing his

throat at night uh the television

stopped turning on by itself uh they

didn't see Shadows flitting about uh um

but they still were constantly sick he

had been on anti-depressant medicine for

years and uh they always went from one

sickness to the other and so I said well

let's let's look through your house

again so we went again and that's I saw

some pottery that had snakes all over it

I said this probably doesn't look good

you know and then so he threw that out

and I forget what other things we found

but so then we went and prayed through

the house again and uh commanding

spirits to go and after that all three

of them stopped getting sick he was able

to stop this anti-depressant medicine uh

without having negative side effects on

him uh his financial situation radically

turned around for the the better uh he

was able to pay off his house and live

on a a really very very good retirement

income and um so his life was radically

changed after these demons that had been

harassing him for years were gotten rid

of which came as a result of getting rid

of things that were in his house U that

opened the door for these demons to come

and and harass

him so there's two positions here that I

want to try to get to that I'm just

thinking about as you are describing

this the first is within Faith mhm and

this position of

cessationism versus I don't know

continuationism I don't know if that's

the right term that refers to the fact

that these

Supernatural uh this operation of

Supernatural power in the world didn't

stop right continues that we there are

we have the authority to cast out demons

that there in fact are demons in the

world there's a whole discussion around

that if if there were demons in the

world and Jesus cast them out and and

then we don't have the authority to do

that did the demons go away or or or are

they just running rampant with no one

having any sort of authority to to do

anything about

that and and healing and otherwise so if

I am a person of faith that believes

that demons are a real thing and that

angels are a real thing and that God is

real uh and that Satan is real

but I still hold

to the cessationist

Viewpoint what would you say to that

person uh I would encourage them to um

uh well maybe open up their minds to the

possibility that maybe that theological

position is

not biblical or not correct um and and I

would Point them to you know historical

uh evidences that all through history

there have been cases of God working

supernaturally and uh and then since the

Bible was written the Bible was written

and then today there are I mean just

countless millions of stories of people

who are seeing God work supernaturally

and so um what often happens

particularly in in North

America

is uh people would say well I don't see

this kind of thing happening in our

church and so consequently they're

pretty skeptical you know uh and um and

I would say that one of the reasons why

we don't see things happening in our

churches like this is because of

unbelief you we don't believe these kind

of things happen today and um and

without faith you know it's impossible

to please God and and uh in our unbelief

uh it's interesting how when Jesus went

to his hometown

Nazareth it says he could do no Miracles

there except lay his hands on a few

people and heal them because of their

unbelief and um and so unbelief limits

the power of God uh to operate and so

when in our churches we say well I don't

see this happening and uh and so

therefore must not happen we kind of

close the door for it to happen whereas

people who do believe that these things

happen they see a lot more of these kind

of things happen uh and I think it like

I said has to do with their their belief

or their

faith yeah and that's a good way of

being gentle with what I would probably

say is if you hold the cessationist

belief you are incorrect mhm God is very

active in the world today

yeah and

uh miraculous healings do occur through

the

prayer of saints yeah who believe and

Saints are people

who know

God and experience him and step out in

faith with the authority that they've

been given so uh it's not

to make you defensive as a

cessationist but I don't know how you

continue to hold a cessationist

viewpoint point in the face of so many

accounts of the very thing that you

claim to have stopped that is has been

stopped occurring

around daily right in the lives of

people like you who was a cessationist

essentially and now you operate in the

authority that Christ gave you and you

see

healings demons being cast out and um

and the

miraculous and I'm assuming not only see

it but you now I mean you're talking

about going into people's homes so

you're

initiating this you are a vessel for

this to happen not just an observer yeah

one of the um next steps that sort of

opened us up more uh in terms of

operating in this way so after our 10

years in Rome and we planted Two Italian

churches and ordained to Italian uh

pastors to take those

churches uh I was in invited to Munich

to be the first pastor of a group of

people who uh were meeting together um

uh this International Group uh and they

asked me to make a five-year commitment

to pastor this International Church and

these were all people who were um

professionals from all over the world

that would come to Munich to to work

with BMW or uh Seamans or the Euro

Fighter Jet program uh Microsoft Boeing

you know all these big corporations and

they would be there for two or three

year contracts and then they would

return to their countries and um so this

group of people all had their kids in

this Bavarian international school and

uh they were meeting together for

worship you know these Christians and um

and so uh they heard about me and asked

if I would be their Pastor so uh shortly

after moving there um one of the the

elders uh South African um uh we had

white South Africans black South

Africans and Indian South Africans which

was unusual in our church as well as of

course people from all over you know the

world and uh but anyway he um uh he and

his wife came over for prayer one night

and they asked if if they could come

over and uh I think it was around 11

o'clock in in at night and while we're

praying all of a sudden uh the wife is

thrown to the ground from the couch and

she starts thrashing around um and

starts screaming at the top of her lungs

and of course we're in shock you know

and um and we we figure out that this is

a demonic

manifestation and so we start saying in

the name of Jesus I command you to leave

and the spirit says no I'm not leaving

and uh and the woman intermittently is

saying Jesus help Jesus help help and uh

we keep on telling the spirit to go and

the spirit says oh you're a bunch of

fools you don't know anything and um it

took 20 minutes of continuously

commanding this Spirit to leave in the

name of Jesus and we quote scriptures

and so forth and she's crying Jesus help

and so forth until finally she has what

what looked like the dry heaves and the

spirit comes out you know of her mouth

we didn't see it but you often times

spirit come out of the mouth and um and

she's calm and uh she told us later she

said that was a spirit of control and uh

she in fact had been a very controlling

person in fact some people had left the

church because she was so controlling

and um and she had told us that um a few

years previously when they were living

in London uh that she'd had another

demon cast out of her um and uh and

about a year later um she was not happy

with me about something thing and I

wanted to come over and sort of tell me

off and so she and her husband uh set up

an appointment to come and and Y my wife

was was not happy with you know the the

tenor of how this meeting was going to

go so uh so she encouraged us to pray

together and we we uh anointed our

doorposts with oil of of the front door

and we prayed and said in the name of

Jesus no spirit is allowed to cross a

threshold of this uh door and um so when

they came they rang the doorbell and Y

just happened to be near the front door

and she opened it and here this woman

was vomiting into the trash can by the

side of the door and um and when they

came in the tener of the meeting was

completely different and uh I'm

convinced that a spirit left her because

it was not allowed to come in to our

house because we had you know commanded

it not to be able to come in and uh so

seeing that very clear U manifestation

of a spirit you know being cast out of

her before and so forth um opened us up

even more you know to to these kind of

realities and um and then one of the

things that also helped a lot uh because

we were a church that was uh an

English-speaking International Church we

had people from every kind of church

background you know we had episcopalians

methodists Presbyterians Baptists

Independents charismatics Pentecostals

non- charismatics I mean we had the

whole gamut and um uh one of the German

uh families um he was a German engineer

and um project manager um they had been

exposed to a a medical doctor up in

Humber Germany who uh had actually

gotten saved through a miraculous

healing uh he he's a diabetes specialist

and um he had some kind of physical

problem that neither he nor his

colleagues could could solve and he

heard about this

Texan um faith healer evangelist that

was coming to town and his name is Billy

Smith and um and so he decided to go and

at that meeting he was miraculously

healed and uh uh couple years later we

went to a couple Billy Smith's meetings

and we saw how he operates and uh he

prays for healing and then after he does

that then he preaches the gospel and he

says you know if God was so kind to you

to heal you don't you think you should

give your life to him and in that

meeting this doctor was saved and uh so

he um decided wow if if this guy could

pray for sick people why can't I so he

started praying for his patients and he

he'd tell them all right come back in

two weeks and let's see how you're doing

and a number of them would come back and

tell them that after he had prayed for

them they felt something had changed and

he would check them up and yes some of

them had been healed so um this German

couple in our church went up to see what

he was doing and they came back and they

said uh they were super excited and they

said can we start a healing um Ministry

in our church like a a healing prayer

room and um and this was this was

interesting because there were some in

the church that were dead set against

that idea you know and uh not at all com

you know the non- charismatics and so

forth and uh um which interestingly a

couple of them were Presbyterians from

Singapore and uh but um uh but we

decided no we we'll let them do that and

and so they would invite people who

wanted appointments for healing to come

to our church on Sunday morning and then

after the service um this German couple

along with an Indian South African who

had some extraordinary spiritual gifts

uh

uh would um would pray for these people

and so that introduced a whole another

element into the church uh where we saw

um Supernatural things happening with

with healing and and I'll just say the

one of the gifts of this Indian South

African he U he was working for Seamans

and

um uh but he didn't speak German uh he

was just starting to learn German and

these people would come in for healing

appointments Germans and um and they

would be telling their story and Nathan

is his name uh he didn't know what they

were saying but he would then whisper to

the German couple this is what their

problem is and this is you know the

sickness and this is what we need to do

and he was always spoton and knew

exactly what their problem was even

though he didn't understand what was

being said in German and God gave him

this gift to be able to discern you know

these kind of things um so the other

piece there is cessationism from the

position

of the Christian who doesn't believe

these things have taken place or or are

taking place now also doesn't believe

that God speaks anymore I think one

position of the cessationist is God only

speaks through scripture

right

and I I can personally vouch for the

fact that that's not the case he

certainly absolutely speaks through

scripture it's one of the greatest ways

he does yeah but he speaks to me through

through many places um and people for

that matter and and to me

directly and I've learn I've come to

know his

voice and I think many people would say

the same thing so there's this putting

aside cessationism and opening up your

mind to the possibility that scripture

is referring to not just events in the

first century when it discusses events

in the first century but that

that moves into all all believers right

for the rest of time those who are to

come and there is scripture around that

too and I may get you to pull all that

stuff forward the other position is that

of the non-believer that

says I can't believe it's

2024 and we still have people holding on

to these superstitious Notions

of

demons and angels and the

supernatural I mean have we really not

evolved past that

intellectually yeah I would say uh um

sadly people with that idea have their

heads buried in the sand um I would I

would say that probably most of these

Mass Shooters Mass Killers you know who

go and shoot up schools and and places

um

invariably if not always these are

people who are highly demonized and U

demons in fact we we've talked with

people who come in for prayer

appointments who've told us that a voice

tells them go and kill yourself or go

and kill other people go and kill your

parents and uh and they hear these

voices telling them and and these are

demons you know trying to get them to go

and and do those kind of things and so

um uh people may say well this is just

their own thinking and and uh and there

may be cases where that that is the case

but uh I think we we can see and and in

fact even you know the the secular world

uh is very knowledgeable about these

kind of things um what was it the uh

this movie the house in amville uh New

York you know I never saw it but the

apparently some house that you know had

demons in it of course there you know

the movie The Exorcist and uh all kinds

of movies have been made about demons

and these are made by people who are not

Christians uh who are very secular but

they have seen the evidence of demonic

forces at work and so a person who

doesn't believe I think it's they've

just made their decision they don't want

to

believe well I think they feel like okay

we've Advanced medically right we we

understand these voices we we have a

term for that it's called it's a it's a

disorder called schizophrenia M and we

can diagnose that and treat that and you

know a buzz word in the culture for the

last decade or two has been you know uh

mental health right we want to focus on

uh mental health and and wellness and so

there are treatments and there are um

things that we need to consider to help

people in

their with their mental health and um

giving them SA spaces and and all this

kind of thing when we talk about that

being a

demonic influence or

personality that's not just a concept

but a real entity that is operating in a

realm that we can't measure with the

tools that we have to measure when we

begin to bring those things up those

people just sniff Snicker and dismiss

them

as sort of hold over Rubes from a a less

enlightened highly superstitious world

that we have since evolved well past at

least most of us have

yeah and I I I

do I feel like the foundation of a lot

of that this is just me personally is um

and I'd love to hear your take on it is

is our arrogance I think when we as

humans as people in this world think

that that we are the

highest

intellect if we look around and said

well I I I don't see anything higher

than us so we must be the highest there

can't be

some spiritual realm that is above us

because well I don't see it it's kind of

like the Russian cosmonaut that went

into space and when he got up there he's

looking around like well I don't see a

God so they're yeah this proves it right

well maybe one of the dumbest statements

in history right he doesn't isn't

contained within um time space and

matter as we know it

but anyway it's this idea that if you

hold a position where demons are real

and for that matter God is real right

then you're stuck in the past you're

stuck in a less enlightened time we've

evolved past that nobody of any

intellect real intellect really believes

that anymore yeah I uh let me just say

uh I do believe there are mental

illnesses that don't necessarily mean

that there are demons involved um and um

uh but I believe some uh do have demonic

you know influences um involved with

these mental illnesses and so um I don't

want to discount

natural medical you

know causes or or you know situations um

but I think uh I think a person who

would dismiss that um they just uh are

either trying to explain

away um what seems to be obvious you

know in terms of there's something

Beyond just the physical um uh that

there is a spiritual Force at work and

um and people who who do believe that

and experience uh uh well to to give

another example um in in our experience

we found that um most if not all uh

addictions are due to demonic spirits

and what happens is when we open the

door through repeated uh Behavior bad

behavior uh in certain

areas um demonic spirits can come in and

then eventually enslave us to that

behavior uh so an example in the Bible

it says in Ephesians 4:30 in your anger

do not sin and do not let the sun go

down on your wrath and don't give the

devil a foothold or don't give the devil

an opportunity so what happens when

people don't deal with anger

appropriately and they sleep on it and

it starts to build to resentment and

then bitterness and then hatred rage and

eventually can lead to murder um what

happens when they don't deal with it

well you know soon it opens a door for

the devil to get his foot in there and

then he builds that into a stronghold uh

through demonic spirits and then people

just fly off into a rage uh completely

out of control of themselves and and

after the event they they can't believe

that they did this and

and what it was was a demon seized

control of them because they had opened

the door through repeated you know anger

not dealing with it appropriately and um

and then that anger that demon then uh

basically enslaved them you know to that

and so the same can be said you know

with alcohol um drugs uh lust

pornography uh fear um uh we can open

the door through repeated

you know actions or mindsets um so that

demonic spirits then kind of take over I

don't know if that makes sense it does

it it makes a lot of sense and if we

look at things from a spiritual

perspective and we and we

recognize

that and it it may just need to be that

we have to see some extremes like I I

I've seen

deliverances where a manifestation is

very pronounced and profound where a

different voice that this person's not

manufacturing is coming out of them a

different set of facial expressions that

they never generated in their life

before yeah is coming forth and being

witnessed eyes rolling back in their

head and when the Deliverance takes

place the behavior stops so if it's a

schizophrenic thing and they've not

taken any

how does that how does it make such a

transition from such a

bizarre alternate voices and stuff to

Freedom yeah from that in an instance

with the only thing taking place is a

spiritual Deliverance commanding them

out in the name of Jesus yeah so when

you see something like that makes a

Believer at of you have a hard time

saying okay well it's this new medicine

that's come out well there was no

Administration nobody administered any

medicine yeah and you're thinking okay

well they've got this condition so

they're going to you know it's just a

matter of time before they do and they

don't yeah

so if you then become a person who says

okay there is something spiritual going

on in this world that isn't just what's

going

on inside a person's head then I see the

progression you just outlined and I say

okay that that makes sense to me I I've

seen it myself I've experienced it

myself and you know I know there's

plenty of people smarter than me but

yeah we found that um when we have an

opportunity to meet with people usually

for an hour and a half or so um and we

deal with root causes uh of their

problem which oftentimes is you know sin

that they haven't dealt with or

generational issues uh um things that

they brought into their house you know

uh these kind of things and after they

repent of their sins um you know confess

the sins of their forefathers and uh uh

break the generational bondage to those

generational sins uh when we command

spirits to go they usually come out

quietly um when we don't have an

opportunity to do that then oftentimes

the spirit will manifest uh violently

and uh very visibly we when I was on a

pastoral staff after Germany we moved to

Naples Florida and I was uh an interm

Pastor for a while at um Covenant Church

of Naples is a Presbyterian church and

um uh a family that had just moved into

the area uh asked if we could come and

pray through their house because they

were concerned that maybe there were

some spirits in the house and um so uh

my wife and I and an elder from the

church went there and um and so uh as uh

the husband of the family of you know

the couple and the Elder and I went

through the various rooms y was with uh

the

wife and all of a sudden the woman just

fell to the ground and started writhing

around on the ground and um and so we we

all came out and uh we could see that

there was a demon involved there and and

so we command Ed this Spirit to go and

the spirit wouldn't go it was very

resistant and um and I don't remember

how much time it took but uh it took

quite a while until finally this demon

came out and then uh she was quiet and

so we thought okay well that that's it

well long story short we were there for

about 4 and a half hours and there was

probably at least a dozen demons or so

that ended up coming out and uh after

you know she would start thrashing

around again and then we we you know be

commanding the spirit to go and it would

resist and wouldn't want to go till

finally it would went um one of the

things we discovered that was

interesting my wife uh came to her mind

after um the woman was quiet and we

thought okay well maybe we've got them

all you know uh my wife thought let's

let's sing a song about the blood of

Jesus and so she'd start singing oh the

blood of Jesus Oh The Blood of Jesus Oh

The Blood of Jesus that washes white as

snow and then another one there is power

power wonderwork power in the blood of

the Lamb well when she would start

singing that then the woman just started

going wild and uh another demon would

manifest uh and what we discovered is

they don't like to hear about the blood

of Jesus you know so so that was sort of

our way to to uh figure out if there

were any left and uh but after about 4

and a half hours we were all exhausted

the woman was exhausted and and I don't

know if we got them all or not but but

um uh but definitely like I said we

didn't count but probably there was at

least a dozen you know spirits that came

out of this woman and uh and so um that

was Naples Florida you know not uh not

too long ago number of years

ago when you experience those kinds of

things and you know this woman turns out

to be um fine after that and doesn't

have any more of these uh episodes and

lots of people that we talk to who have

experienced Deliverance like that talk

about U the the the weight coming off

Freedom the the things that

they sort of were persecuted by not

understanding that was a demonic

presence once they went through a

deliverance talk about a dramatic

difference in the way they feel and the

way they see things and that sort of

thing the non-believer

says we have those are psychological

techniques that you are using to make

them feel like they are dealing with

their anger

issues a strategy a technique like the

person

who you know went from being angry all

the way to contemplating murder well

that's because you stewed in your

own you know negative thoughts and one

thing led to another and and the

technique

secular technique would be to um sort of

isolate that thought and and not allow

it to it's just your thoughts that

you're allowing to run with you it's not

a demon it's not a bunch of demons

manipulating you into that zone I mean

how do you respond to to that yeah I

would uh I would say and this thought

just came to me it's interesting that

Jesus never tried to persuade the

unbelievers that what he was doing was

from God you know you know he he did The

Works God called him to do and they gave

testimony you know that he was from God

and he did say you know the The Works

themselves show you know that what I'm

doing is from God but he didn't try to

you know go out of his way to to prove

to the people that no what I'm doing

really because he was he was accused of

doing what he did through the power of

Satan of be elal you know and U uh now

he did say you know if Satan casts out

Satan you know he's divided Kingdom and

you know doesn't stand and so forth so

he gave a little bit of response but uh

I don't think he spent a lot of time

trying to persuade you know the people

who didn't believe the Pharisees you

know the religious people interestingly

the the most

religious uh conservative religious

people who believe the Bible completely

they were the ones who most opposed him

and um and it's interesting

today maybe the same same is true uh

some of the ones who are the most

conservative Bible believers who believe

the Bible word for word from Genesis to

Revelation uh often times they're the

ones who are the most opposed to the

supernatural power of God at work it is

amazing and I don't understand that is

it is it that that we are just those

people

are interpreting what's laid out in

scripture right before them in a in a

way

that points to this cessationist

Viewpoint or are they

just choosing to look past those things

in scripture yeah I I think um has to do

with what we were brought up being

taught you know in terms of what we

believed and and so sometimes we're not

open to reexamining you know what our

core beliefs have been

um and uh sometimes I think it may be

due to Pride you know we uh and uh you

know some of the mainline

denomination um churches the people are

very proud of their theological Heritage

and uh their Seminary education and and

um they feel like they have all the

answers and so um that may you know the

Bible says that God opposes the proud

and uh and he uh but he gives grace to

the humble so a person who is willing to

examine other possibilities I think that

shows a humility and then God you know

gives them more light to see things that

they otherwise wouldn't have seen but

those who are very proud that they have

all the answers so then God leaves them

where they are yeah I think about that

in a lot of you know multigen

generational people especially whose

parents grandparents great-grandparents

as far as they can

see you know been members of said church

and this is the way we do things and I'm

you know kind of we've got a a very

familiar process and even sometimes if a

new pastor comes in it's like

hey you're not doing it the way Jim did

it right and we got a way of doing it

and we like to find the most comfortable

place and and stick with that and I

think if you

truly are seeking God and looking to

walk with God you discover that there is

no um there is no container for

him that holds him that that often if

we're truly obedient to him and follow

him he pulls us into places that are

beyond our comfort zone our and he does

that that because he's pulling us into

new life into new Awakening into a

richer presence with him and that never

stops because he's an infinite God and

so he's infinite love and infinite power

and infinite intelligence and so there

is no ceiling that we bump up against

that I find in a lot of

longstanding traditional denominational

churches yeah and I think what you're

saying and I agree with you and I I same

position

is be fertile ground in the parable of

the swer yeah he's encouraging us to be

uh fertile ground tilled up ready to

receive whatever is the the seed that is

put into them that we not to be Rocky

and hard and resistant and and that sort

of thing and um and so be fertile ground

for God to open your eyes to new things

that he is doing yeah and praise God

that uh God can break through uh to

hardened Hearts like Paul the Apostle

you know Saul he was uh a persecutor of

of Jesus and the church and uh and God

supernaturally revealed himself on the

road to Damascus uh uh that's not a

common story you know and um for most

people you know they they have to um

take steps to be willing to entertain

ideas that uh are foreign to what their

background has been you know what you've

talked about so far mostly I mean you've

talked a little bit on healing but uh

mostly on

Deliverance

[Music]

um are you in Deliverance now do you do

Deliverance Ministry are there examples

of things that you've seen I I think one

of the misconceptions that people have

is that if you are a Christian MH and

even further if you have the Holy SP

Spirit dwelling in you and I think

there's a difference between just being

a Christian and having the Holy Spirit

dwell in you I think you can check the

box at church yeah MH and say the repeat

after me prayer and feel like that's

your and then go on and no have no

relationship with Christ and technically

you're a Christian and um but if you

have an indwelling of the holy spirit

that you cannot have also have demons

yeah yeah that's um and and I would say

that's probably one of the biggest

barriers to Christians being able to be

set free from demonic uh oppression or

um and it comes from a basic uh

misunderstanding uh that has its root I

think in a faulty biblical

translation so in most versions of the

Bible uh it refers to people people

being demon

possessed um and so the

the thought is well if I have the Holy

Spirit there's no way that a demon can

possess me and that makes sense um but

the problem is is in Greek nowhere in

the Bible does it ever say that a person

is possessed by a demon the word is

dioni which transliterated means

demonized so it never says that a person

is possessed by a demon it just says

that they are demonized or that they

have a demon

so that's significant

because uh a person who's a

Christian when they're born again their

dead Spirits are resurrected um

regenerated Made Alive and that part of

us is sinlessly perfect that's a part of

us that communicates with God but our

soul which is our mind uh how we think

our will our you know desires our

emotions how we feel even and our bodies

are still subject to

sin and so in those parts of us we can

have a demon come in and influence us

tempt us torment us oppress us uh cause

us to be sick and if that's the case

then the demon has to be cast out and so

um uh I'll give you you know some

examples um so when um I was mentioning

before about how addictions are are

usually due to demonic spirits now I'd

been in Ministry for years but I had

struggled with an addiction for years

and I tried every which way to get rid

of that addiction tried fasting

memorizing scripture meditating

confessing you know everything but still

was under this addiction till one day I

was watching this program called It's

Supernatural with Sid Roth and uh he has

a he's a Messianic Jew that interviews

people people who've had Supernatural

experiences and he had this pastor on

his program uh from Miami and the pastor

was saying that in his experience um

addictions are due to demonic spirits so

he said I'm going to command these

spirits to go and that was the first

time in my life that I'd ever considered

the possibility that my addiction was

due to a demonic Spirit had never

crossed my mind so I thought wow this is

this is for me so he went one by one and

the name of Jesus command every Spirit

of alcohol go every Spirit of nicotine

go every Spirit of drugs go every Spirit

of lust go every spirit of pornography

go every Spirit of anger go gluttony go

fear go and um I didn't feel anything

happen but uh in the days and weeks that

followed I found that I was free from

that addiction and so I was blown away I

was wow this is really amazing you know

and um uh but then several months later

the Temptation started coming back and

uh and I probably yielded once or twice

you know to to the uh uh temptation but

around that time we we went to a

conference uh uh that was hosted by that

German doctor I was telling you about up

in Hamburg Germany and we went to visit

his uh practice and he had this prayer

apartment where he'd also send his

patients to have prayer ministers pray

for them and so we went to see that and

and um so I'm sitting there in this

prayer apartment and one of the German

prayer ministers came in sat opposite me

and he uh he started staring at me and

he said uh he said do you see that and I

said no see what he said there's a demon

trying to get into you he could actually

see the demons and uh he commanded it to

go in the name of Jesus and he said it's

gone and after that didn't have those uh

Temptations anymore he could see he

could see the demon yeah so he had the

gift of disc earning Spirits yeah yeah

he could literally Corinthians could

literally see seeing in the spirit what

we it's people who can see demons yeah

with their eyes and Angels yeah for that

matter and and some people uh I think

that gift Discerning the spirits they

may not be able to see but they can

sense you know a spirit being present

you know and um and interestingly let me

say you know we we have cast out scores

and scores of demons from you know many

many people uh but I would say I don't

have the gift of discerning of spirits

um and so I can't tell whether a person

has a spirit or not but based on what

they tell me I can surmise that they

most likely do have a spirit and so I

just assume that they probably do and U

so I Heir if I Heir I Heir on the side

of just assuming that there probably is

one there and I I command them to go and

and if there is one there they they go

and uh so I I'll share uh couple other

experiences along that area of addiction

so in our church their Covenant Church

of Naples uh again a Presbyterian Church

uh which is a PCA church a Presbyterian

Church in America which is one of the

more um conservative you know uh

Presbyterian

denominations um I was teaching in a uh

men's bible study about this idea that

uh addictions are due to demonic spirits

and so afterward this man came up and um

he said uh he says dan he said and he

works for a Christian organization as a

fundraiser um he said I've been addicted

to alcohol for 60 years and he said I've

been to all kinds of 12-step programs he

said I have um accountability Partners

uh when I travel they'll call me up

every night ask me how I'm doing I tell

them I'm doing fine I hang up and I open

up a bottle of wine or scotch and and um

he said' I'm also addicted to lust uh he

said' do you think it could be a demonic

spirit

and I said well uh probably and so right

there in the fellowship hall I said in

the name of Jesus command every Spirit

of f call go every Spirit of lust

go well the next week he uh came back

and in that men's bible study he said to

the group he says uh remember Dan was

talking about addictions and demonic

spirits and he shared what we had done

he said um he said this past week I went

to um my house and Virginia and uh I

have a very well stocked wine seller and

he said the whole week I did not open a

single bottle of alcohol I see my wife

in a totally different way and um about

a year later um I saw him getting in the

hallway I said how you doing he said I'm

still free and then just uh last year uh

in response to one of my newsletters he

wrote me and uh and this had happened

like let's say eight years ago he said

I'm still free thank you so much for you

know uh having prayed for me there and

in that same meeting uh there was

another man there who uh told the whole

group um and this had been something

that had happened a few weeks before uh

we had after the Bible study gone out

for breakfast four of us and one of the

guys said you know he says um he says

I'm a sex addict he said I've slept with

186 women and I've been to all kinds of

you know programs to get rid of this

addiction but I'm still addicted and uh

he said do you think that could be a

demon I said most most definitely you

know and so outside in the parking lot

uh we had a tailgating party one of the

guys had a truck uh so we just um behind

his truck there I said in the name of

Jesus command every Spirit of lust uh go

and um and so he told the group uh that

he had been delivered from that

addiction uh that sex addiction and he

said his relationship with his wife was

completely completely different now and

uh and so we've just seen scores of

people delivered from U alcohol from

drugs from pornography from Anger from

Fear uh instantly uh just by having

those um Spirits cast out in the name of

Jesus and many of these are Christians

yeah they've all been Christians uh that

that I'm talking about in in these cases

so the question that I'd posed earlier

is can a Christian be demonized or have

a demon and the answer seems to be a

resounding yes

yes I would say so I would think

if if I were the enemy of

God I don't know how much time I would

waste on my time who don't on people how

much of my time I would waste on people

who don't believe in God MH I'm not

trying to separate them from God they've

separated themselves they're good yeah I

think I would Target the church I think

I would Target Christians yeah I'm

trying to separate everybody from God

it's destruction that I'm I'm looking

for and so if you don't believe that you

can be a Christian and have demonic

oppression you're incorrect yeah well

you know the the Lord's Prayer and most

of us never look at it this way when

Jesus said lead us not into temptation

but Deliver Us from actually in Greek

it's the evil one so Deliver Us from the

evil one so why would Jesus be telling

Believers his disciples that we need to

be uh that we need to pray to be

delivered from the evil one you know uh

if if the evil one can't you know

afflict us can't uh come in inside uh

I'll give you another story here um we

had this woman come who told us she just

was gripped with fear because her

daughter who was senior in high school

uh wanted to change sex and um and of

course the parents wouldn't let her do

this but uh the daughter said well when

I go off to college I'm I'm going to use

my own money I'm going to change my sex

and um the mother and and this is a

Christian family grew up in a fine

Presbyterian church and and uh um the um

the mother just was so gripped with fear

she couldn't sleep at night I mean she'd

always be tossing and turning just uh

she'd wake up in the morning just

complet gripped with fear and anxiety

and and uh and so we explained to her

that fear is actually a sin uh because

uh they say 365 times I I haven't

counted so that may not be true uh that

the Bible says Don't Be Afraid or don't

be anxious or uh don't worry um but fear

is a sin because it means we're not

trusting God and the Bible says that

without faith it's impossible to please

God and also fear means that we haven't

fully appropriated or experience the

love of God because the Bible says

perfect love casts out all fear so if I

knew how much God loved me

then why would I be afraid you know um

so I encouraged her to confess it as Sin

and to repent of her fear um which she

did and so then we demanded the spirit

of fear to leave her and she said uh she

told us later on from that night on she

was able to sleep the whole night well

wake up happy in the morning her

daughter still was bound and determined

that she was going to change her sex and

um and this um she was she was fine for

about a year daughter went off to

University U stayed in this uh house

that was full of transgender people and

started taking treat hormone treatments

and and um and after about a year the

mother again was gripped with fear you

know and um came back in and we cast

that demon out again and uh uh the

daughter came back from University and

and uh said you know Mom I think maybe

maybe I was premature in this idea of

wanting to change my sex and so at least

for the time being she's uh she's

stopped you know uh that you know that

direction um but this was a case of a

Believer who this spirit of fear so

gripped her that she couldn't sleep she

couldn't operate couldn't function

because fear just overwhelmed her and

and it was a spirit demonic spirit so it

wasn't that you just gave her a some

mental strategies in overcoming fear

when she begins to feel fearful it was

an actual removal of a demon in the

process that's right so since demon or

since Christians can have demons

ballpark in your opinion how many

Christians at some point in their life

have been oppressed by a

demon that's good question I I really

couldn't say um people that come to see

us generally are people who have

exhausted all other options you know

they've maybe gone to counseling they've

talked with their Pastor they've gone to

doctors and um they still are struggling

with their problem and uh so then

someone says oh why don't you go and see

Dan and Y you know and uh so we see a

disproportionate number of people who

are afflicted you with demons and um so

I I really don't know how many if I had

to speculate personally yeah 100% very

of people who are Christians at some

point have struggled with something

that is rooted in demonic influence yeah

and it doesn't mean you're a terrible

person very good point yep and it it's

not an indictment of you yeah it is how

the spiritual realm operates Paul says

you know we're not fighting the flesh

we're fighting principalities here this

is this is an active battle that's why

he says put on the full armor of God

because we're constantly under attack MH

the devil prows around like a roaring

lion seeking whom he may devour and he's

talking about Christians there that's

right and so it's it's a constant

barrage from the enemy against

Christians Jesus says I came to set the

captives free who are the captives that

are people that are held captive or

enslaved by sin and by demonic

oppression yeah I mean let's just

hypothetically say that all of reality

is wiped clean of

demons there are no more demons on Earth

what does Earth look like totally

different although obviously we still

have sin in our lives and we struggle

with sin but definitely you know as the

Bible says Satan comes to kill steal and

destroy um and uh Jesus came to undo the

works of the devil um he uh I love this

verse in Acts 10:38 it talks Peter is

preaching to Cornelius and his family

and he says how God anointed Jesus with

the Holy Spirit and with power and he

went around doing good healing all who

were oppressed by the devil for God was

with him and so people are oppressed by

the devil and uh and that healing uh

often also means physical illnesses and

uh in fact I'll give you a story or two

of that so in Naples um I was asked to

be the director of the Christian Healing

Center of Naples uh a group of

episcopalians that started this and it

was a Evangelical Episcopalian Church

and one of them uh he had received a

supernatural healing attending a

conference in Nashville Tennessee with

Randy Clark and so he got really excited

and he persuaded Ed his uh the Vicor of

his church and and another person to go

with Randy Clark to Guyana uh for a

healing Mission and there they saw some

extraordinary Miracles taking place uh

including with with them praying for

people themselves so he came back and he

felt God was calling him to start this

Christian Healing Center of Naples and

uh um the one who's going to run it uh

backed out in the last minute and so um

somebody had been saying oh you have to

get Dan to run this thing and uh so

finally uh they asked us to come the

problem was they didn't have any money

to pay us and we didn't have any money

but we uh in faith we we decided to do

this and we didn't charge anybody

anything and and God miraculously

supplied all of our needs but um but

anyway I wrote in one of my newsletters

about how we had seen a lot of people

that had um one leg shorter than the

other just in seconds even out as we'

prayed for them and uh so uh this guy

that I knew from New Canaan Society it's

a group of men that gather together

every week for fellowship and so forth

um he called me he says I've got my

grandchildren visiting and one of my

granddaughters has scoliosis and she's

got one leg that's like about an inch

shorter than the other can I bring her

in I said sure So uh he actually brought

the four grandchildren in and um this

girl was a 10th grader and we always at

each appointment we pray and ask the

Holy Spirit to to show us what we need

to know and U to guide the conversation

and uh and so I asked her I said you

know when did this scoliosis start and

she had very marked curvature of the

spine one leg about an inch shorter than

the other uh she had one shoulder higher

than the other and uh she said it

started in seventh grade so I I said um

so what are the doctor say in terms of

what caused this and she said they have

no idea and she'd been to all kinds of

special specialist and so uh this again

is where a spiritual gift comes in

really handy you know we're at a loss

you know what could have caused this

scoliosis you know out of the blue and Y

who often times God reveals her things

uh blue she says have any of you played

with an ouija

board and uh the girl says no fourth

grade brother says uh yeah he'd been at

some sleepover something like that he

had played with a little and the senior

in high school brother said he had also

played you know one time with at a party

and and then she says uh oh yeah okay I

remember now yeah I was at some

sleepover and and I just prayed played

briefly with this IGA board so I thought

Bingo there it is so I asked her well

when was that and she said well H that

would have been probably sixth or

seventh grade and uh so then I thought

that was the connection so I explained

why playing with an IGA board is sin uh

you're basically invoking demonic

spirits to give you hidden knowledge and

um so I had them confess that to sin all

three of them uh out loud you know

repent renounce that and ask for

forgiveness in Jesus name which they all

did then I had her sit in front of me

and uh put her heels together and you

could clearly see the difference you

know of lengths and uh the boys were

standing up looking down you know over

it and uh and so I just said in the name

of Jesus command these legs to even out

and in seconds the longer leg just came

right in to be even with the other one

and the boys are like wow you know their

eyes are as big as sewer caps you know

and uh and um then I had her stand up

and you know one shoulder higher than

the other I said in the name of Jesus

command the spine to straighten out and

be in right relation with a pelvis

pelvis and just like that her uh

shoulders evened out and so the fourth

grade brother said man he says uh can

you pray for me he said I have planter

fasciitis this pain in the bot the heels

and he said they're in pain right now uh

so we prayed for him and uh he said the

pain instantly went and then the senior

in high school brother um said can you

pray for me he said I've been stuttering

for years uh so we prayed for him well

um about six weeks later I I called the

uh grandfather and asked permission to

write this up in a newsletter and and I

said how are they doing and he said

they're doing great no scoliosis no

planner fasciitis no stuttering and um

and just saw him a year ago Christmas

time down in AES and uh so this is again

about seven or eight years afterwards

and he said they're still doing fine and

um so never in a million years would any

doctor guess that having played with an

ouija board would have caused these

physical

afflictions and so they undoubtedly

tried everything they could you know to

try to alleviate these problems to no

avail because it was a spiritual you

know problem but once they renounced the

sin that open the door for demons to

come and afflict them physically then

they were able to be healed and so

that's an example of how demonic spirits

can bring about physical

afflictions so we talked

about a few instances of healing a few

instances or several instances of

Deliverance and there's a lot of

specifics I still think I want to get

into around that CU some of it is is sin

some of it or like complicit sin some of

it

is uh

basically unknowingly having types of

artifacts that are used in worshiping

things other than God in your home for

decor and not realizing what it is it's

playing with toys it's um that you don't

realize maybe are um are deeper into

spiritual things that are not of God

then maybe you really appreciate it or

realize another piece of cessationism

though is the fact or this not the fact

the idea that we don't hear from God God

doesn't speak anymore except except

through scripture can you speak to that

yeah we had a great example of this in

Germany um there was um uh two families

that came to church for the first time

one Sunday and we heard their stories

later on um but one of them uh ran into

uh An American in a grocery store and um

they got talking and uh they got talking

about church and so one of them said

yeah I heard that there's this you know

church that used to meet at the you know

Bavarian international school and and um

uh and so neither one of them had been

to the church but uh they ended up

coming the next week uh at the same time

uh but one of the things that they

shared before was uh this one woman she

was Australian married to a German

engineer who works on Space weapons and

so forth and uh um but she was

um uh would take her child to to the

school every know every morning and one

day uh she'd come to know Christ as a

teenager in Australia although she'd

never been baptized but um so one day

she's taking her child to

school and she

feels this this voice or thought in her

head that's saying go talk to with that

guy she thought go talk with I don't

know him and but she felt so strongly

that it was God saying go talk to

him and

um so she finally decides okay so she

goes over and said hey how how's it

going and he says going terrible he said

uh I hate my brother I can't sleep at

nights I know that this is wrong so he

he was polish he was a Polish Catholic

um and had gone to Canada Vancouver and

had been a banker uh with TD Bank and um

and then eventually um well while he was

there this East German woman had moved

to Canada and they met and they got

married and then they decided to move

back to Germany uh and they settled

there in the Munich area and so this was

the man and uh so he says oh things are

doing terribly um and uh because I'm

filled with hatred toward my brother for

what he's done to me uh and I know I

shouldn't be doing that but uh I just

you know can't get over and I can't

sleep so then she told him about the

church that she had heard about from

this American woman that she had run

into in the grocery store and so um so

they come to church uh and uh and after

church I'm I'm talking with the you know

the Polish guy and he tells me the story

how this woman had invited him and um

and uh about his hatred for his brother

and he said by the way this is my wife

she's an atheist you know but um but

anyway we're you know happy to have come

and so he uh they ended up coming

regularly to the church and um I went

and visited them shared the gospel with

them and um and he came to know Christ

uh but she still you know was an atheist

wasn't you know wasn't at all U

interested well I mean interested enough

that she would come to church you know

and uh so she saw some remarkable

changes in her brother her brother her

husband her husband forgave his brother

and was able to sleep you know at night

and so forth and so one day she's in the

house by

herself and she says God you know if you

exist I really want to know you know if

if you really exist if you're there and

um so if you exist um will you uh have

my husband talked to me about and I

forget what issue it was some Christian

topic you know and uh no I guess it was

about prayer you know uh and not long

after her husband comes in and he says

oh he says you won't believe what I'm

discovering about prayer and he starts

talking to her about all these things

that he'd just been learning about

prayer and he was so excited well for

her this was definitely God's you know

answer and um and so she then came to

faith in Christ and uh but going back to

this Australian woman um

ger married to the German so I went to

visit them in their home and shared the

gospel with them and um and she told me

that she'd you know received Christ as a

teenager in Australia but he he was not

a Believer and um he wasn't interested

in making any profession of Faith at

that point and so I asked him uh as

we're about to leave I said well can I

just you know pray for you he said yeah

okay and uh so I said okay if I just put

my hand on your shoulder yeah all right

so I put my hand on his shoulder and

just pray that God would bless him and

that uh the Lord would you know reveal

himself to him and you know so forth

well uh long story short uh a year or so

later um he and his whole family his

wife uh and children they all got

baptized in church and he gave his

testimony and what had happened that day

when I visited them in their home and I

prayed for him when I put my hand on his

shoulder and prayed for him he said he

felt this overwhelming Heat come through

his whole body uh this heat that he'd

never experienced before and uh after I

left he said he went and took the hot a

shower that he could possibly take to

try to replicate that but it wasn't even

close and so that made him think wow

there must be something to God here you

know for this to have happened to me and

that opened him up to then uh being

willing to hear and so as they were

attending church and him hearing the

gospel every you know Sunday then he

eventually came to Faith and then his

whole family you know was baptized but

these are examples of and by the way I I

felt absolutely nothing when I put my

hand on his shoulder and prayed for him

I didn't feel any transfer of heat I

didn't feel anything at all but he he

felt it and he took that as God

communicating to him that God was real

you spoke about

opening being the original director of a

Healing Center right and it's not

because of your medical knowledge is a

this is a prayer Center this is about

coming to you and I I don't know why we

don't see these by the way I don't know

why we don't have healing services in

our churches I'm not sure that's that's

a thing that um I think should be

happening

already but most Christians like I

mentioned from the outset is we we don't

operate in this if we were to receive a

diagnosis we would go to the doctor

first of all right and that's what we do

uh and then if it really got desperate

we would start asking around it's like

who

could who could we go to that might

could pray for us do we need to go get a

priest somewhere and and and pray about

this thing if we had felt like there was

a demonic oppression it's like who can

we go to uh who's got the anointing yeah

right do you feel like you have been

you're one of the Chosen Few who's been

given this

anointing uh to be able to pray healing

and deliverance and see these things

take

place that's a really good question and

let me say that

um I think uh every

Christian can and is called upon to heal

the sick to cast out demons to

evangelize you know Jesus when he called

his

disciples um says that he gave gave them

Authority and power uh over every

unclean Spirit to cast it out and to

clean to heal every kind of disease and

sickness and he said go proclaim the

good news of the Kingdom heal the sick

cast out evil spirits now we think well

yeah that was the 12 but he did the same

with the 70 uh and the 70 also uh

operated in all those areas and in the

Great Commission he said you know Go

Make Disciples baptizing them and

teaching them to obey all that I

commanded you well what had and

generally in our churches the unsaid

part

is teaching them to obey all that I

commanded you except the part about

Healing The Sick and casting out you

know demons just love one another right

yeah and go evangelize but not these

other two things you know um so I

believe every Christian is called upon

to do that and I think God has equipped

every Christian to be able to do that

now there are some believers who have

gifts in certain areas that uh enable

them to operate in a much higher level

uh in those certain areas so for example

we all are called to evangelize but

Billy Graham was gifted in evangelism

and so he saw far more people come to

Salvation because he had that gift um we

like I said we're all called to heal the

sick um and God can use us to heal the

sick but there's some people who have a

special gift and it's interesting in

Greek in 1 Corinthians 12 there it says

Gifts of healings plural so the gifts

are plural the healing so some people

might be gifted in a particular type of

healing um like maybe they can you know

see uh legs even out but there's another

kind of healing that that they don't see

they they've never seen God heal the

blind you know uh whereas there are

other people who maybe um see God heal

the blind but they don't see God you

know make the crippled walk or you know

uh just you know for example you know uh

so there's Gifts of healings and and

also interestingly in

Miracles it says the workings of powers

that's the the word for miracles and so

it's it's um plural so there's different

levels or kinds of Miracle working

Powers uh some can um you know have

Miracles over nature some can and it's

interestingly interesting that the

casting out of demons Jesus uh

characterized or qualified as a miracle

because uh when the disciples came to

Jesus and said there's someone casting

out demons in your name and they're not

following us and we told them to to stop

and Jesus saido one can be performing

miracles in my name and speak evil about

me or something like that you know so

Jesus qualified the casting out demons

as Miracles so some people can cast out

demons on a regular basis that they're

that's a miracle gifting that they have

uh they can do it that thing but they

can't do other kinds of Miracles and um

so as I'm saying God can use anyone to

do any of these things uh and any

particular time that he chooses but

people that he especially gives a

particular spiritual gift to they can

operate in that in a much higher level

than other people who don't have that

gifting but but you're not saying though

that there are Christians who do not

have authority to cast out demons no

every Christian has authority to cast

out demons that do not have authority to

heal that he did not commission to heal

I I believe he commissioned all of us to

do that so all

Christians can be and should

be casting out demons laying hands on

the sick and healing them yes

mhm and as I said those who have those

particular gifts will see more fruit uh

generally uh than those who don't have

the gifts but God can use every single

Christian to do any of those things

so there's a process of

Deliverance in in my experience and

talking to Deliverance ministers as well

where I you can command them to go in

the name of Jesus they have to obey the

name of Jesus and and I know that you

you've mentioned several times that or a

couple of times at least anyway that

when you commanded demons to go they

refuse to go and I my first thought goes

to okay so that means that demon has

permission to be there they are the

person is complicit in some way either

benounced to them or unbeknownst to them

so that could be unforgiveness some type

of sin unforgiveness or um you know you

just you know you're doing the wrong

thing and and you're just going to

continue in it and and then the other

ways are maybe generational and I want

to talk about that in a in a

second but it feels like

okay if we identify how the permission

was given and then revoke that the

person says no I do not want you here I

revoke that permission then in the name

of Jesus it's more like a court

proceeding they have to go

yeah what about

healing when when you pray healing so I

I think of it this

way been involved in many churches and

and and there's a there's a prayer list

right yeah and and so anytime there's a

somebody's in the hospital or whatever

you know they they send it to the

everyone on the email list the prayer

committee or whatever pulls it together

and and I'll be honest with you

sometimes I feel like that's nothing

more than a gossip column to find out

what's going on in everybody's

lives and and if I look at that most of

the people die on that list mhm I mean

they're not getting healed yeah I don't

even know if anybody's actually praying

for them certainly I'm not seeing people

go lay hands on them anoint them yeah as

is outlined in James 5

right where's the disconnect

between Downtown Church uh email chain

prayer list and what scripture outlines

it says um they will lay hands on them

and they will recover where's the

disconnect yeah we're we're struggling

with this in our own church we go to a

Presbyterian Church um PCA and uh the

Pastor uh has started having uh every

third Sunday a healing service after

after the service anyone who wants

prayer for healing uh he and the elders

will anoint them with oil and pray for

them for

healing and uh

he's you know

seen relatively meager results and and I

was explaining to him that part of the

problem is that James 5 passage talks

about confessing our sins one to another

and uh and that that seems to be uh

prerequisite or part of the process of

the person being

healed and the circumstances of these

kind of prayer you know Gatherings uh

for healing you've got a bunch of people

in a room waiting to be prayed for

everybody's over hearing you know uh

what's being said you know nobody is

going to confess some deep dark sin you

know in front of everybody else you know

there and so generally it's you know the

pastors well what is it you want prayer

for and the person mentions and so then

they anoint them lay hands on them and

pray for them and uh something may or

may not happen you know and so I

explained to the pastor I said it

requires time time to be able to

discover what the root cause you know

could be and the person person has to be

in a setting where they feel free to

open up and disclose uh things that they

normally wouldn't disclose to anybody

and um and until that's done generally

the person doesn't receive healing and

so I think the structure of how uh often

it's done you know the or you know just

going forward and and uh being prayed

for and so forth uh uh usually these

kind of issues aren't dealt with and and

uh in our experience um to have a more

consistent level of seeing people healed

uh the sin issues or the generational

issues have to be dealt with so one

example we we um uh had this Bible study

uh in Chattanooga and uh this woman who

had been attending for a few years um

she had had Polio polio when she was

three and uh has one leg about an inch

shorter than the other has had to wear

brace and has always been in pain for

years and years and years so finally

after hearing a lot of our story she she

got up the courage to come and ask for

prayer uh for healing for her polio and

um so she and her sister and niece came

uh Y and I were there and uh again we

asked the Holy Spirit to show us what

might be a root cause and and so the

thought came to me I said anyone in your

family tree been involved in the

Freemasons

and she saide she said my father and my

grandfather were

Freemasons and and she said my

grandfather was in the klex

clan and um so I explained how that in

the Freemasons um uh in each degree

there's 33 degrees uh certain vows are

made and Covenants are made and um and

those vows and Covenants are self-

imprecatory which means that if they

don't comply with what they've promised

they are calling upon themselves curses

to different parts of their bodies and

these curses are not only for them but

they're for all their future posterity

in

perpetuity and um and so we have seen

just scores and scores of people who

have had physical afflictions and uh it

comes back to ancestors that were

involved in the Freemasons and um so so

I had her renounce uh the various

covenants and vows that had been made by

her father and grandfather you know with

the Masons and grandfather with the klix

gland and um so after we did that uh we

you know again had her put her heels

together and we could see the difference

and and prayed uh this one didn't happen

in seconds like all the others this took

a full minute or so and the shorter leg

Drew out and uh came past the other leg

and uh so then we had to pray again to

have it go back and then finally even up

with with her other leg and she was able

to take her brace off uh take her

platform shoe off on that leg um and

walk for the first time with her heel

touching the ground and walk painfree

and and she tells that story in her own

words in my book uh whole and free uh

walking god's Supernatural power so

there was a situation where um there was

a root cause and in her case it was the

forefathers being involved in you know

the Masonic order and the cooks Clan

yeah I want to get into that and the

generational things um but what you're

talking about is there's a process in

praying for healing where if you're

truly doing that you've got to you got

to find the The Source the root cause of

definely so doctors these days um they

can treat symptoms but if they can go

back and find root causes biologically

they can deal with those but um

spiritually same sort of thing right you

can you can you can pray healing and and

but if if the source remains undal with

then you've really not done anything

it's that's why when you go to see a

doctor they'll they'll have you fill out

this form you know usually four pages or

so of history of you know uh both you

your family you know and so forth and uh

because they want to find out you know

what are what are some factors involved

and I know some people in in Christian

Healing Ministry that uh also have a a

form that they have people fill out you

know uh doing that uh we we've done that

for a while but we've opted to just you

know ask the Holy Spirit to to guide and

show us and and um and generally you

know he does he he brings us to what

what the factors are and and so we we

don't use the form anymore yeah but I

mean at least you're talking about

having a prayer service what I often see

is there are no prayer services really

it it's confined to um you know lob a

text in or an email in that tells us

that you know Susie is in the hospital

for um you know a spot over on her side

or something like that and and the

extent of praying for him is if you can

include them on your prayer list while

you're praying whatever time then then

that's how we pray for people and and

then those people if they do it they go

to God and say God please heal Su If It

Be Your Will if it's your will right

complete healing for Susie and that's

what we think praying for healing

is I don't think that's what you guys

are doing no at all right what's the

disconnect between Suzie on the

Presbyterian prayer list that

everybody gets distributed once a week

and along with Jim who's still in you

know recovery over here and so and so's

got surgery over here so pray for that

and we'll pray for this and we'll pray

for that what's the what what is what is

prayer list Team Missing yeah well as as

I mentioned the James 5 passage talks

about confessing sins to one another and

um and

so uh and and by implication it's

showing that sins have something to do

with the sickness that the person has

and un confess sins that is and so if

there's not an opportunity for the

person to deal with issues that they

haven't repented of yet uh or these

others like I said you know generational

issues and things like that then um

generally the healing doesn't come and

and so

we're uh sort of discouraging people's

Faith because you're saying oh well

we're we're praying for these people and

we don't see anything happening well

it's because we're not getting to the

root

issue I want to ask a pretty direct

question

here and I think I'm trying to get to

something that scripture outlines that I

think I'm many people might not be clear

on Jesus

said I have given you

Authority when we pray

healing we ask ask God to heal them is

that what you do do you lay your hands

on a person anoint them and then ask God

to heal them well that's a great

question that is a really good

question and um let me say my my

background is that that's what we do we

ask God to heal somebody and and often

times we tack on the phrase If It Be

Your Will you know Lord please heal

Susie you know if it Be Your Will and

um but as I examine the scriptures uh in

the New Testament there is no example of

anyone praying to God for healing uh

Jesus he never asked the father uh to

heal somebody he just commanded the

person to be healed and then the

disciples they never asked uh Jesus to

heal somebody they commanded the person

to be healed so Peter and John at the

temple gate with a man who is crippled

they didn't say Lord you see this man

he's been suffering all his life as a

crippled and uh please you know have

compassion on him and if it be your will

will will you please heal him no they

didn't say that at all it's interesting

how Peter phrased it he said silver and

gold we don't have but what I do have I

give to you in the name of Jesus get up

and

walk you know he commanded him to get up

and walk and um and all all the examples

in the book of Acts of healing it's

commanding the person to be healed in

the name of Jesus and so Jesus said you

go and heal the sick and I I sort of

imagine it this way um when we pray and

say Lord please uh heal so and so God's

up there in heaven and saying why are

you asking me to do what I told you to

do you go and heal the person obviously

we do it in Jesus name but he gave us

the authority to do it and so many

Christians don't use that Authority that

we have so when we stay at our kitchen

table with our cup of