Download Subtitles for Daredevil: Born Again Action Director Interview

I I think is is if you're designing from a place of story and character first and foremost and and not from a place of spectacle, I think you understand the emotion of the scene. I think that is that is key to the design of any sequence, you know, and which is again a big lead into why stunts has finally become part of the Oscars. >> You heard I'm pissed. >> All right, Phil, thank you so much for joining us today. I am so excited to dive in at Daredevil, talk about Punisher. Uh, but what I love about your action work is it never feels like it's there just to be cool. Uh, whether it's Daredevil or Punisher, it's always bigger than the genre world you're working in. The action always feels like the the character storytelling comes first. And the one thing that fans love about Daredevil is the action never feels separate from Matt Murdoch's inner life. It's kind of tied to his pain, his faith, his anger, and even his exhaustion. But when you're building out a Daredevil fight, where does the character start for you? >> That's a good question. Uh, number one, this is a very collaborative process and and you know, there's always a clear tone and a vision coming from both Dario and Sana. >> Sure. >> And with that being said, for years, I've had a great collaboration with all the actors on our show. And and I think the thing that I've done either on on any of the shows, but specifically this one, is we lean into the character characterization of each sequence and each character and the emotional ride they're going through in that particular moment. That kind of lends to how we begin to design the sequence. You know, there's a very big difference and and I've probably said this before to when Daredevil's interrogating someone or when he's seeking for someone that has just killed someone he loved or or he's trying to fight through a will to save a little boy. Those are all very different things and and when you understand what tone we're going for, that's where the sequence starts to begin right then and there from the start. >> That's incredible. Absolutely incredible. Now, one thing about Charlie is he's lived with Matt Murdoch for so long now. When you design action for him, how collaborative of a process in terms of what Matt would or wouldn't do in a fight uh is he at this point in his life? >> Uh extremely collaborative. And I think I've had that that that process with Charlie since day one. we've approached the character, you know, going far back is is through setting simple rules and when you understand the rules, then you can break the box of the rules. So, I'll say that >> setting rules as far as, you know, Matt Murdoch doesn't look at people when he when he when he talks with them. [clears throat] But when he's Daredevil, he'll look directly at them because they don't know he's blind. Now, that being said, >> when his uh reflexes kick in, he doesn't have to look at certain things. So, there are certain times where you'll find he doesn't look when he's striking or he avoids because that's just second nature to him. So, you set rules of engagement first and then you figure out the best way to break those rules as we go. And and I think with any sequence I've done with with Charlie, Vincent, John, Bernthal, Wilson, Bethl, uh any of our cast, it's a massive collaborative uh back and forth all the time. You know, I'll take the diner for instance. You know, there was a very specific script that was written and then Daria and I had a conversation about how we can make it more interesting with with the tools in the diner. And then after I blocked it with my stunt team, then Wilson Bethl came in and then we did a walk through before I committed it to a stunt viz. And and when we did once we did that walk through, we we enhance the character beats within the sequence. And then I shoot what we call a stunt viz. And that becomes my shooting template for for action unit or second unit on the day. >> Ah, it's incredible. What? Thank you for letting me in on that process. Now, what I love about Daredevil action is that Matt, obviously, he's incredibly skilled, but he still looks like a guy who's getting punished in the process. How important is it for you to feel like the audience feel that cost of everything uh every fight on his body? >> For me, I think that's one of the most important things is is when there's effort, you feel more connected to it. >> Sure. >> There is a a term I use with my stunt team, um, which is what is our what is our bite the curve moment? American History X. We've seen that film, right? >> Yep. Yep. >> You understand you didn't have to see the action. You knew what it implied and in the moment you hear the teeth and you feel a certain way. So what I mean by that is what is the moment that connects the audience? Whether it be through pain, through victory, through through sheer chaos of what is happening in the moment? What is that moment that ties the audience to it personally? And through a lot of it, it's their struggle. If you can see them >> overcoming something, if you feel like they're not so uh infallible, uh then then the audience connects to to the characters more. And obviously once we design the sequence, then Charlie or Vincent or or any of the actors, they up it to a whole another level. >> I love that. I love that. I want to ask you about Vincent Denafhrio's fist because Fisk is terrifying even when he's not throwing punches, but he but he feels physically dangerous all the time. When you're thinking about Kingpin in action, how do you approach his violence differently than Matts? >> You know, each one of them comes from a very emotional rage, right? And this with Charlie, >> Charlie was trained by Stick, >> not really trained by his father, but when he starts to to get angry, he starts to rely more on the the raw punches and the grappling, right? Where he's really a ninja. That being with with Fisk, >> you know, big fan of the books and I think early on and it was a joke between Vince and I, we went into this term Full Metal Rage because there was a comic book panel of early Kingpin where he looks like he's he was striking like a silverback gorilla, a big gorilla, right? So when he got emotional, what we wanted to do is always let him swing with just this massive power and never let him hold back because he's he's he's calm, he's cool, he's collected, but when he gets emotional, he lets that rage go and you see how scary he really is. And I think I think one of the moments that the world itself inside of Daredevil got to see that was when they were trapped with him in the hallway in episode. >> Right. As as viewers, we know that that Fisk and Vincent is a is a scary person behind the scenes. And to the world to the people in that world, the first time they saw Vincent Denaf or Fisk fight was in the boxing ring. >> But then there were people trapped in the hallway with him. And they had never seen that or known that publicly about him. So we made it a horror movie and we let him swing for the fences. We let his strength come out and and those people that were trapped in there with him, they pay for it in that moment. >> Yeah. What a brutal scene. I'll tell you what, that that uh finale was so cinematic to me. And you're completely right. I didn't even connect the two cuz it did kind of feel like a horror movie when you're trapped in there with Fisk. Completely accurate. Now, this is a fan question that I have uh because I've always wondered this about this version of Fisk. Um now, when you're designing action for Fisk, do you ever joke, did this man take the super soldier serum? Because when he hits somebody, it feels like he is beyond normal human strength. There there there's a there is a joke sometimes about him being a low-level mutant behind the scenes. >> That that that being said, you know, in the books, he's pure muscle. >> Yeah, he is >> like 300 lb of pure muscle. So, I mean, Vincent plays it with with such rage and and uh and depth. If you feel it, you believe it. You believe that he has strength as a human. Um, >> absolutely. >> Yes. There's a there's an ongoing question. Is he a low-level mutant? Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? Hopefully TBD. I do want to ask you about New York because is there there there's very there's something very special about Daredevil in New York, especially the the New York uh violence in Daredevil. The hallways, the stairs, the streets, the tight rooms, places where there's nowhere to hide. How much does that geography of New York shape the way that you build the action in this world? >> Massively. I mean, look, I I'm born and raised in New York, South Bronx. Um, seeing things growing up. That being said, New York is such a massive character of a show. >> Yeah. the the grit and the grime leads to its noir elements, but then also that very street level believability of it all. Um, and and I think anytime the locations, the settings are are part of the scene, we do as much as we can to lean into the design of of making it part of the world and feeling that that street level grit. And I think that's one of the things that most people love about it is it is a superhero show, but it's not super. It's very street level and almost believable. It's it's it's >> 10 15%. >> I mean, it's almost in a way kind of looking outside the window of a heightened version that happen to have superheroes in it. I feel like that's the groundedness of that, you know, that that whole street level uh vibe of of the MCU. Now, when you're doing these one shots or long take sequences, uh what's the biggest misconception misconception uh people have about how those are built? because the final version always looks spontaneous, but I imagine it's like engineered chaos when you're putting those together. >> Uh 100% that calculated risk-taking and engine. Uh it's 100% what this is. Um I'll take this particular season's winner. >> We already had a sequence pre-esigned and Brad and and Donna uh Sana and Dario had looked at it and we're like, "This is a great sequence. We should turn this one into a winner." uh the the thing we're always fighting is the clock, but on this particular one and and on any one we do each shot is its own individual movie. Um you know, even though it is stitched together and the stitches have to be perfect in order for it to work, what you get in between the in and the out of each stitch can be organically new and fresh each time. You know, you you can't rely on cuts within each moment. So there's something things that haphazardly happen, but the the base of of each phrase is is very specific enough that we know this is our story line. This is what we have to hit. These are the beats. And the important thing is what brings us into the shot and how we get out of the shot. So each one is it its own handcrafted film that we have to begin and end perfectly. And uh you know, we we get these amazing moments. I I'll preface this. We've seen the wonders with Daredevil and he's always fighting through fatigue. >> Right. >> Right. And that's kind of been his thing with the majority of these wonders. He's overcoming something. In this particular story, uh Charlie and Matt Murdoch's the the character, he wasn't beat down. He wasn't fighting through fatigue. He had to make a choice to I can get the evidence I need to to stop Fisk or I can save these people. >> Now, we had a unique team up where we brought swordsmen into this world. And I love that we brought him to the street level world. >> Me, too. [clears throat] >> Right. Tony's amazing, by the way. Great to work with, you know, and this was a character that had been beat down for a bit, trapped inside there. So, the fatigue moment went to him in this very unique way and and he had been there for months on end in this story, the blackbox. And normally where Daredevil has his fatigue moment within this fight, he's very driven and very specific about what he's here to do right now. and Swordman is fighting through this pain and and this tiredness and he's taking on the the uh anti- vigilante task force and you have this moment where it's normally Charlie's and this time it became Tony's in a very specific way and I think you know that juxosition looks so beautiful on screen between the two of them. >> Yeah, I love swordsman. He was one of my favorite like low-key characters uh last season in Born. Absolutely love him. Uh, now with Bornne continuing to expand the street level corner of Marvel, fans are obviously excited for characters like Luke Cage and Iron Fist potentially being a part of that world again. Now, without getting you into any trouble, have you started thinking about their action language, how Matt would differ from Matt's uh, if you get to play with them? >> You know, we we give each one a very unique camera language on this show for the characters that we do have. And and I think the the good thing about the tone of this particular show is is any of the characters um we know that Luke Cage is coming back. We saw it at the end of season 2. >> Yeah, we did. >> Yeah. Any of the characters that come back to these worlds, like we're very specific about staying true to the character within the street level world. Like there's there's effort to it. Um I'll just say I think fans are going to be very surprised to see what they're about to see. I think I think there's a a beautiful story coming. I think there's a a very specific tone that has continued to evolve from the Netflix era to now. From Steve the Knights era to Marco Ramirez and Doug Petri and and to Daario and Sana like it has been nothing but a continual evolution starting from someplace familiar and constantly evolving. And I love that they're staying true to the characters along that evolution. >> I love that. Great answer by the way. Great answer. Now, I want to move over to talk about Punisher: One Last Kill because Frank Castle's action, it feels different than Matt's because he's seen the world like a battlefield. When you're designing action for Frank, how much of it is about putting the audience inside of Frank's head? >> Oh, you know, I I have to say this. I did not design that. That was done by Jude Puyer, um, a a brilliant colleague. I did get to design Punisher early on on on the Daredevil Netflix series, and and I got to work with him on Born Again. I did make a cameo in the show as a performer. Um, but I I again I I can't I can't uh say much to punish one last kill other than I am a fan of how that show came out. >> I do want to ask you more about the street level side of the MCU, especially that corner of the MCU because you have such an eye for seeing these characters and the the physicality they carry. Um, have you have you wanted to dive in and maybe do a feature of your own on any of these characters or any other street level character in the MCU? >> You know, I I I have features in the process to direct that aren't Marvel related. That being said, you know, I've never really thought about uh diving into these particular characters. I mean, I I've to me uh Daredevil is is my favorite character in the street level world. That being said, um, having designed Deadpool and Daredevil, I would love to see their team up. >> That would be sick, right? >> There was a chance to do that one, I'd be happy to do it. There's a great juxaposition on these two characters from Team Red in the comic books. >> Yeah. >> And I love to see them together at some point. >> So, for you, out of curiosity, what separates a good action scene from one that fans remember years later and keeps replaying frame by frame? I I think is is if you're designing from a place of story and character first and foremost and and not from a place of spectacle. I think you understand the emotion of the scene. I think that is that is key to the design of any sequence you know and which is again a big lead into why stunts has finally become part of the Oscars. You know, stunts has been for many years where, >> you know, people misunderstand stunts for first off, stunts is about safely setting up gags and and making things that seem impossible very achievable and safe. That being said, there's a difference between setting up a gag and designing a sequence. Stunts is is is now being seen and being understood to be a non-verbal dialogue storytelling. So, if you can understand who the characters are emotionally and design from a body language of of the characters first and foremost that come with a good story, you're going to have a scene that will always stand the test of time. >> Well, I even love what you said too because it's something that you pointed out that I didn't even pay attention to, but like when Matt is fatigued, I didn't even realize he turns into the boxer mode because that's what he relies on uh instead of being the the disciplined train ninja that he is. It's it's those subtleties that I think connect us with the action and the character. It's like the perfect marriage at those times. So, when you're getting to work on these street level heroes, um are you always kind of like the character always comes first? But how does the mindset of the character change depending on the action that you're designing? If that makes any sense. >> No, no, it does. And and again, I think it's it's always like what is the preceding moment of scene? What is the what is the moment that leads out of it? And I I'll say this even when it comes to in terms of doing a gag. A gag is just a gag if if the lead into it and the lead out of it doesn't have an emotional tie. >> I think those [clears throat] are the most important things is is under truly understanding what the character is going through >> and and understanding and I'll say this >> maybe 20 kicks and 20 punches doesn't tell you what the story needs but one solid punch of anger and emotion tells the story beautifully. And when you have that set up properly and the actors understand it from an emotional place, you get something beautiful every time. You understand that for the design of the story more and and it all depends on what the story calls for and needs in that moment. So lean into those things and try not to force anything, >> you know. Uh last question I have for you is that uh I love getting to know some of these street level heroes that I may have not been familiar with. Swordsman is the perfect example of that. It's a character that came in that I didn't know much about and ended up instantly connecting to. Um, is there a character on the street level that you would like to see adapted into this corner of the MCU and get a chance to play with some of their action? >> You know, uh, there's a character I would love to see more of that that I've gotten to know pretty well. Um, not so much a hero, but his unique point of view in psychology, Wilson Bethl's Bullseye. >> Oh man. Yeah, there's he's got this such [snorts] a unique perspective and Wilson is uh sadistically charming. Yeah, listen, this season I felt like it was [snorts] this almost felt like it was Wilson's uh Wilson's season to really shine. And we got so many great moments with the character and we get to dive deeper into that psychology because look, even in season one, he's a straightup villain. But now he almost becomes like this anti-hero where as sadistic as he is, I find myself kind of cheering him on. You know what I mean? So >> 100%. You know, you know what's funny? And I think this is good about all the characters is at at some point they're all a reflection of who Daredevil is. >> Yes. >> Right. Wilson Fisk and and and Matt Murdoch, the love for New York City. Um you know the the shared the shared skill set between Bullseye and Daredevil whereas as Daredevil is very brutal with his skill and and Bullseye is he has no morality. He has no morality code in his point of view. And and then there's John Bernthal's Punisher and and you know the my favorite conversation was before the Warner in the Netflix season 2 is like you hit them they get back up. I hit them they stay down. Yeah. >> So, it's that constant there are flip sides to him and I think those are what that's what makes the show so interesting is number one there's a long history for the fans to pull from and we can design from that history as we go and it's just these characters have such a rich story of juxtaposing each other all the time and and I think that's one of the the beauties and the elements of the show just from a story point and an action design point on how you look at these characters. Well, listen, Philip, if you're able to give us a uh Bullseye oneshot, Bullseye spotlight oneshot, I'm all about it. I'd love to see uh Wilson in that in that uh in that role. >> What's one of your characters you'd like to see? Street level. >> Street level like more of or you know what? So, >> from the from the early Jessica Jones days, I think it was Hellcat. I would like to see her kind of like kind of come back and see what that character is now a little bit because we saw her kind of have this turn at the end of uh of the end of the Jessica Jones series. So, I'd love to see a follow-up on see where that character is now, especially with how much training she may have went through at this point to see what she's doing in the corners of the street level at the MCU. >> You know, I have one more to add to that then. White Tiger, I think I think I love White Tiger in in our in our hallway sequence at Intercut. Um, it was a convergence into the rotunda. Um, and I feel like we we got enough just to feel how strong she is and how emotionally damaged she was after her uncle was killed. Because in that one moment I got to design with her, you know, in talking with our actress, she really laid into that one anti- vigilante task because she's finally in her world and I hate to say use the word taking revenge, but getting revenge for what they did to her uncle. >> Absolutely. >> I'd love to see where her story goes in the future. I mean, look, there's so many question marks after this season of Born Again as well because like even watching that finale where we end with Luke Cage because I always thought that Luke was more of the moral center of the defenders and like he always felt like he was on the right side of everything. Now, I don't necessarily know how Luke played into all this, especially with Matthew Lillard's character. It's it's just I want to see where where all this is is going because I love these characters so much and I think you guys have done such a great job of uh paying respect to what came before on that Netflix era and then bringing it to us now in this modern MCU. I really really love the stuff you guys are cooking up. >> Uh Matthew Lillard is amazing to work with. >> I love Matthew Lillard, man. I love me some Matthew Lillard. He's fantastic in this show as well. and my culture. Christian Ritter, I I never had the chance to work with them um on Defenders and I never, you know, always a fan and working with them is such a delight. All all the casts on the show, it's probably one of my my favorite shows to ever be part of. Our entire cast and crew, it's such a collaborative process and everyone comes with with just a huge amount of passion to do the best for this particular production. >> This is my last I'm going to ask this is my last question. So, Swordsmaster I thought was a big highlight for me in season two. So, if if people are looking at season 3, looking at like a a breakout type of character, who do you think that would be in season 3? >> I don't know that I could say anything [laughter] on that. I feel like Bullseye and and uh Punisher might be watching me with Kevin Feige from a distance, >> right? Yeah. >> True. True story. I I can say I can say that, you know, you know, with what uh Sana and Dario have really set forth and and what Brad and and everyone have come together collaboratively, I think fans are going to be truly excited for for this next season. That's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Me, too. Listen, this has been such a fun conversation simply because I love this stuff so much. You have no idea. When I watched the last two episodes of Daredevil, I remember thinking, "Wow, I'm shocked this isn't in a movie theater because it had such a giant cinematic feel to me. Um, absolutely incredible." >> One of my favorite scenes, and I have to say this really quick. Uh, this is one of the ones I got to direct with, uh, Wilson Bethl and his stunt double. Uh, Brian Janza, who doubles, Wilson Bethl, was one of our shows fight coordinators, also played the fake bullseye in that one scene with the standoff. >> Sure. You know, one of the things I love about Wilson, I have to say that he's amazing, but we get to give him such unique camera language as we design each one of his scenes. Um, yeah, that was one of my favorite scenes. I have to say that really quick. >> I love that stuff, man, cuz I love I'm a big fan of DVD commentary and I feel like this cuz that's Look, I didn't go to film school. I feel like this is me learning through DVD commentary. This is I love these type of conversations cuz I didn't even pay attention to the camera angles that we see Wilson in in those like stuff like that. I want to go back and kind of absorb and understand that stuff. It's so cool. >> Well, well, just to say it to you, there's in a design of of these characters, I I try to give a very specific camera range. If you're in Matt's language is very handheld and and and you're inside of him subjectively with him. >> Wilson Fisk, it's a little steadier and calm, but you still feel the brutality and slowness of it. If you're with Bullseye, you know, they developed such unique camera language on Netflix series and I love what Don Lee and Gary Sterns did, two colleagues of mine who stunt coordinated that scene, that series. Um, you know, in the design of that character, they gave him a very specific camera language when he threw objects. And I [clears throat] think what we wanted to do was evolve that and and as you see in the diner, very specific camera moves, but sometimes you play the Dutch angles to play his warp perspective. and unique ways for him to throw things like in that scene with himself and and his fake bullseye. >> Um, >> that's so cool. >> Follow the blades. But yes, yeah, it's >> that's that's amazing. Listen, Philip, thank you so much for your time. I would love to come back or talk to you again once season 3 comes out uh and then kind of like pick pick up uh some of these little tidbits. I think they're so interesting to learn. Daredevil Born Again season 3. I cannot wait, man. I cannot wait. >> Halfway through. Halfway through it, my friend. >> Thank you so much for your time, Philip. I appreciate it. >> Absolute pleasure. Thank you.