Fact Check: India CJP Protest Debate on Voter Roll 'Deletions' and CEC Ganesh Kumar

What I'm stating right now is you've turned Delhi into Palestine regulating metros.

>> A man who is responsible for the voters of a country. Should he be gambling those votes on an imperfect system at

all? >> This is not applicable. Supreme Court has ruled this.

>> What are the grounds provided for an SR to be conducted? >> Pro cannot remove a valid vote. Every

single citizen has the right to vote. >> And you need these immunities when you're running institution like this

>> because if seen through my eyes, what he has done is a blunder. What's to say a bunch of saffron wearing people come and

attack these innocent peaceful protest? >> It is a known fact that the Indian bureaucracy is slow.

>> You would not be prosecuted about democracy. [music]

>> Welcome to one versus 10, where one brave soul takes on 10 people with opposing views. This is surface level.

Hello, I'm one law student against 10 protesters and we are discussing the recent CJP protests. My first claim is

Ganesh Kumar has done nothing wrong. >> Okay. So, hi, nice to meet you. >> You too. So your claim is that Ganesh

Kumar has done nothing wrong. Well, there is a direct violation of section 182 CC act 2023.

>> What does that say? >> Any decisions taken especially with regards to deletions of votes.

>> So it states that any decision taken should be unanimous by the entire bench. >> Yes.

>> In case of unanimous is not possible, >> then it should have a simple majority. >> Yes. Correct.

>> But there are at least 14 proven counts where they have >> where is it proven?

>> Filed a case. >> Where is it proven? >> Where is it proven? They have filed a

case >> where who >> Sukir Singh and Vive Jooshi both of the

election commissioners >> okay >> have filed a case on 14 counts

>> where >> they have the case [clears throat] they have filed a case that all of the

changes made in the recent >> do we do we have record of those cases where

>> we do have record of those cases >> where as far as we as far as the whole country is concerned only one Miss

Ritika Chopra albeit a well decorated journalist much respect to her magically found 14 such claims across 10 months

and come has filed it. So we don't have any written any minutes of the meet where such an objection was raised or

any such complaints published to the published to the country. So >> what about the claim that the chief

justice of India Surya Kant has said that there has not been an official approval to the form six modifications.

>> Modification modification of form six is completely different from the claim that is being made when has done nothing.

>> He's done nothing wrong. Absolutely nothing. >> My argument is to refute that Kumar has

done something wrong. >> So on the b on the basis that >> you said that you have refuted the claim

that there is no record of the 14 counts. I'm also saying apart from that if you are not willing to accept that

there is account where chief justice of India has given a public statement that the Supreme Court has not approved the

modification of form six. No, you said no no now the question is now the question is the question is nothing

wrong do we require the Supreme Court's approval for changing form six it is perfectly within the power where where

is that given >> we do where is that given if you look at >> which provision is that

>> the Supreme Court has ruled in 1996 I believe in a particular case of a citizen when so in form six there is a

question of a person's citizenship that is where the S modification happens where in to prove citizenship you have

to prove your grandparents or history. Correct. Correct. Correct. They clearly ruled that proving citizenship is a

quasi judicial requirement that needs to go to quasi judicial courts. >> No, no, this is not quasi judicial

courts. You cannot ask for proof of citizenship. There are cannot delete. >> There are EOS election officers uh

election officers who are group A, group B and group C employees wherein group B and group A are empowered to take was

judicial actions. This was the same objection that was brought up in the Bengal SF proceedings and the Supreme

Court has ruled accordingly. >> No, in L babau 1995 they have ruled Supreme Court has ruled that EROS cannot

remove an analid voter under the guise of foreign national or not valid citizenship. This is not applicable.

Supreme Court has ruled this not applicable. >> Now now we must understand in what

context was that case brought out and what context is this brought out. So under article 324 and section 21 some

sub article subsection of the representation of people's act the s process has begun. Now what does the s

say? It explicitly empowers the election commission to delete voters name of voters in case they're either dead or

relocated or they're not eligible to vote in general. So the that ratio is completely independent of what is the

situation right now. That is why that is why there was a case challenging the validity of the SIR in Bihar and the

Supreme Court by our chief justice only upheld the S process. So that principles that principle does not apply and

>> citing article 324 saying that these >> 324 and 327 read together with section 21 of the representation.

>> Do you know what is the due process to delete an individual citizen's vote? >> Yeah, it it has been notified.

>> What is the due process? >> Thanks for seeing me. Hello. >> Hello. Nice to meet you.

>> You too. >> Um the entire premise of a democracy works not only on the fact that um a

perceived a government has done something but also on the people's perception of a democracy which is

largely important. >> Ganesh Kumar um first of all there has been a media report that has been

expressed by Indian Express stating 14 accounts over the past 10 months that the other election commissioners were

not consulted. This includes letters that were sent to um addressed to Ganesh Kumar as well as the letters sent

addressed to the cabinet secretary. Okay. Upon which there has been a case which has been filed with with the court

um with these letters that have been assigned. So there is proof that Ganesh Kumar has did something.

>> Are these letters public knowledge? >> Yes. >> Are they published?

>> These letters are public knowledge in the sense that these letters have existed. And why that matters? It's

public knowledge because it has come in the Indian Express newspaper and nowhere else.

>> Yes, that is the purpose of the media. The media is supposed to come in and tell you things that are just apparently

published to the people because that does involve a large amount of >> So tomorrow a newspaper with more

traction comes and says uh the prime minister is is doing is doing illegal work

>> selling the country. the agitation regarding the processes itself um is also regarding um which is largely felt

by the people. So the entire point of these protests is not merely the fact that the CC has not consulted the

election commissioners but it is also regarding the the impact of that which is directly felt by the people. The

impact of it being the website of the website uh the ECI net portal which has been there largely malfunctioning and

not not allowing and asking additional details. Now additions to the form six in itself cannot be made singularly by

the election commissioner. It is a part of the representation of people's act as a part of the election.

>> So what is the process that needs to be followed? The process that needs to be followed is that there needs to be a

legislation amending that and stating or the election commission alone cannot solely decide it or it is the process

through which um or even the claim that where the election commission went ahead and said that um the judiciary has

approved of this has also largely been proven to be false. So then there is a illegitimacy that is out there.

>> The because the judiciary has not approved does not make it illegitimate. Sure that's that's one statement which

might be false but there is no precondition that a judiciary needs to approve this form to be legitimate.

>> You are right but the illegitimacy derives from the fact that the election commission has lied to us.

>> How? >> Because the election commission said that the judiciary that the CGI has

approved this and the CI did not. So then does that [applause] all right but would that be the fault of

the would that would that take away any any legitimacy of the form six amendment itself?

>> It would take the legitimacy away from the election commission which is a greatly important.

>> So tomorrow let's say the election commission comes and apologizes for this great mistake. Would they be would they

back to being uh legitimate? Absolutely not because an apology doesn't account for is not really so any institution

ever that has lied to the public is illegitimate de facto >> look there is a legit there's a question

of perceived legitimacy within institutions >> right so it is perceived legitimacy

>> no no >> it is not legitimacy status quo >> absolutely

>> yeah so whose perception matters now >> people because the election commission is supposed to be a body that's supposed

to create legitimacy >> so in a democracy where the perception of the people is only and only

recognized by the process of election process of voting. Now they can't come in the middle of it by saying just

because there's a protest the people are no longer feeling legitimate having faith in the election commission right

so what is the measuring stick here >> the faith the um the that's exactly the point right the problem is that people

in a democracy need not justice must be seen to be done justice must not just be done right but I come in and tell you

that this process has occurred and large amount of names have been removed from the list including the recent Karnataka

appeals as you can which have been largely of minority communities. When suspicions have been erased, um then

there is >> what about the fact that they have arrested all the people who have raised

objections to inclusion of minority communities? >> It doesn't matter because there is not

matter because there is still illegitimacy. Let me finish this. Yeah. So there is still illegitimacy um of the

election commission as a whole. Why is that a problem? That's a problem because the election commission the entire

premise of this democracy depends on the functioning of the election commission. And if the election commission has

proved to be number one incompetent, number two, it has also proven to be illegitimate largely perceived to be

legitimate. >> What what makes no so on what yard stick are we measuring the legitimacy of an

entire institution as opposed to an individual? >> Because the institution has come ahead

and lied to you. So even so okay that's what right coming back to the position if we if the election commission

tomorrow issues an apology newsletter saying we apologize for all the malfunctions that has occurred in our uh

in our particular institution will that all will that make it legitimate again? >> Obviously not because

no so even one mistake made by public institution makes it completely illegitimate.

>> Such a large mistake. Yeah. >> Such a large mistake. [applause]

Okay. Hi. >> Hello. >> Okay. I have a question for you. So

>> 14 cr voters have been taken off electoral roles. >> Okay. Who is holding them accountable? I

mean who is who is accountable for that? Given the fact that India is supposed to function as a democracy and the entire

legitimacy of a democracy hinges on the fact that every single citizen has the right to vote and their names cannot be

taken off the voters's list without due process. >> The courts are keeping the ECA

accountable. There are processes both in Bengal and there was one in Bihar. There was one in Tamil Nadu. There's now one

in Karnataka as well. So the whole point is so there's a there's a software which is taking care of all of this right and

a lot of name discrepancies that are happening is called LD logical deficiencies

unreasonable parameters unforeseen parameters like the mother uh the parents being 50 years older than the

child uh let's say discre huge discrepancies in names name orders some things like these are problems which are

not which were not accounted for definitely for some a huge scale operation like this but that That is how

every institution takes its first step into involving right so we we begin our technological evolution through this now

whatever mistake that has happened in Bengal have been corrected in future version right now in Karnataka it's

actively much better so there's a step-by-step improvement >> there there shouldn't be room for much

better because because in that in that space where there is a room for mistake legitimate voters are not being given

the right to vote that is I [applause] that is that is why that is why there's the appellet system right we all come

together and acknowledge that no system is perfect that is why someone sitting and scrutinizing who whose name is

legitimately deleted and not and for the most part it's going smoothly >> which is why this system is supposed to

be decentralized it's not supposed to [laughter] be >> the problem of this system is it is

decentralized that is why Mr. Ganesh Kumar has done nothing wrong. >> Okay, explain how why

>> the software is decentralized, right? Every BLO booth level officer and every ERO is in charge of entering data and

the system recognizes whether the name is legitimate or not. Now it is the fault if it is the fault of the system

definitely and that is that is where we are improving our standards. Right? It's it's it's it's no system which begins

with a new technological shift is perfect. Even the ballot system which began was not perfect, right? Over time

we mastered it. We went to EVMs, right? EVMs were majorly criticized. But now we've come to accept EVM to be

legitimate more because we've made mistakes and we've gotten better. Like that's that's that's the hallmark of a

strong institution. It has enough faith within the public that even if it's made a mistake, we put in our faith into that

system. Right? So that's that's that's how it evolves. So Mr. Ganesh Kumar being accountable for a decentralized

system is completely is completely bogus. That is why he's done nothing wrong.

>> We are not holding him accountable for a decentralized system. We are holding him accountable for such a severe

malfunction of the sir that again it's such a large number 14.4 cr >> right? So why only Mr. Ganesh Kumar

there are two other chief ele there are other election commissioners right? Why not all three of them together get a new

fresh of election coming? >> Because there has been so many discrepancies in his conduct. There has

been so much there's been so much of question raised. There shouldn't even be room for question raised in this because

this is supposed to be an organization where two out of three votes is supposed to be the majority. But he has been

acting without that which is why there is doubt. And when there is doubt in the EC CEC

that shakes the foundation of of an entire democracy. [applause]

Hello. >> Hi. So you know what? Let's let's we've all we've been discussing it a lot. So

we'll go back to the basics. Uh what is the act that enables peace bill to vote get their voter ID?

>> Representations of people act 51 and 50. representation of people. >> Correct.

>> The this whole system that we debating here is built on people's representation.

>> Correct. >> Okay. Now, now next basic question when what are the what are the grounds

provided for an S to be conducted. >> The grounds are whenever the election commission notifies an S.

>> The the primary grounds for an S to be notified that is is left to the discretion of the election CC and the EC

election commission as a whole. election commission as a whole when they feel like there's been a change in the kind

of demographic that happens and then yeah to correct for this they conduct the S and to change the electoral roles

>> correct correct >> when do you are you aware of when the last total complete S like what we are

doing >> 2003 >> 2003 what was what was the 2003 sir for

to correct what are they correcting in the 2003 S >> people who have migrated people who are

dead people who have changed their >> on what basis was this information given with that was on what basis was this

information given to the CAC like where did they get this information from >> by enumeration right that's how process

works you go you on ground you go check out who all live in the area who all has shifted and let's say a person let's say

a person in Chennai has come the election commission finds out that this person was previously in let's say let's

say he was in Andhra Pradesh right so they remove their his name there and they add it in Chennai voter roles

that's how that's how normal SR works >> that's how normal SR works where this enumeration that you're

referring to in the larger sense is the census of 2001. I I put it I put it to you that this information was from the

2001. >> This was not the 2001 census. Separate enumeration happens, right? Every single

time there's separate enumeration that happens >> every single time every single time

separate enumeration happens. But the 20 I put it to you that the 2003 census uh the 2003 S happened based on the

information from the assume that it happened to >> and the data that was published.

>> What is your point? >> The point being the last S the last census that was conducted was in 2001

2011 sorry to correct myself. 2011 the data from 201 let me finish my point if that's all

right gohead >> from 2011 the data the data is massively inaccurate because the 2021 census got

postponed the data that we roughly have is largely inaccurate we began the S from Bengal where where the S Bihar and

West Bengal as a whole where we primarily started this whole S system to correct for the immigrants that came

into The immigrants that came and are primarily from Bangladesh and Bangladesh

and other states overall migration right [snorts]

sorry you know sorry yeah so this so [laughter] this corrective so this so such for that corrective measure to

occur there needs to be data backing it which cannot happen without this enumeration which did not does not

happen until unless there's a census >> no no the enumeration is completely independent of the census all right

regardless of whether the census happens or not the census hap even if there's a one-ear time gap between census and

enumeration enumeration needs to take place that's the point of it all so I don't know what basis you're making this

assertion uh even without independent of independent of census right people did come to the streets come to every house

check who all are living so on and so forth so it >> [applause]

>> Thank you. >> Gananish Kumar has done nothing wrong. Correct. Because tomorrow Yes. Because

tomorrow you hold him in court. you present evidence of the irregularities and the illegal activities he's done. He

has all the legal immunity to prevent any arrest and prosecution because section 16 grants him the immunity from

any civil or criminal arrest. >> Right. So you need correct [applause] [cheering] correct it's true and you

need these immunities when you're running an institution like this. Right. You can't be vicariously liable for

every small action that takes place. Even the chief justice of the Supreme Court does not have this kind of legal

immunity. That is what was in Supreme Court. Even Supreme Court judges do not have this kind of legal immunity. The

president, the Supreme Court judges and chief election commissioners all basically all head of constitutional

bodies do have certain kind of immunity. >> Certain kind not as up to as how much CC is literally on the same level, right?

>> No, it has more. The CGI has said it in open court that he has more legal immunity than sitting

judges of the Supreme Court. >> But this is what is wrong. >> No, that immunity is warranted. Right.

See, that's the point. >> It is warranted. Evidence of the irregularities and the

illegal ACTIVITIES HE'S DONE, HE WOULD NOT BE PROSECUTED. >> NO, NO. He after going out of office, he

can be prosecuted >> for the activities he's committed while he was in while he was sitting in

office. He cannot BE HE CANNOT WHILE HE was if he has carried out any actions as official duty as per the CC rule as per

him continuing his activities as a CC he will not be prosecuted. That is what the law says.

>> After after remove after being either impeached or after retiring from that post he will be liable for any action.

clear your facts about that he cannot be because whatever duties is carried out may be classified as official duties. So

he will not see there now there's two points right one in in way of his duty that is protected and anything outside

the scope of his duty can be penalized. So now the the reason his due acts within his duty is protected is because

>> tomato tomato same >> no no no such protection is directly warranted right this this immunity is

provided to all such officers because you can't be vicariously liable for every small problem that happens

>> how do you protect a democratic country by not giving entire power to one person he has more power than a sitting supreme

COURT JUDGE ARE YOU telling are you telling that he does not have the power more than a supreme court judge that's

why there's three election commission >> but CC is the one. So >> chief election and he has the most

>> he's one among equals he's not the foremost right he's one among equals so clearly that's

>> if he was one among the equals he would not be classified as CEC >> he's one among so the same logic as

>> I got your point you you have shut down the entire Delhi city 23,000 persons have been deployed 10 detention centers

you've turned Delhi into Palestine [applause] YOU SO NO NO NO NO NO

NOW the question is the question is how come Delhi into that by organizing an unapproved protest you ask permission 3

days before the entire protest and expect the whole city to accommodate for it seriously lawn or is a thing in the

country >> what I'm stating right now is you've turned Delhi into Palestine regulating

metros asking oyers not to book any hotel rooms you've you've turned regulations in borders who comes from

who comes comes into Delhi who goes out this is absolutely against the democratic values that the country

stands for >> no that that's >> thank you [applause]

>> welcome back >> yeah hi so you made a point I you made several points I want to counter but

first you said who turned Delhi into Palestine it was the protesters >> by by staging an No, that is staging.

Staging. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This No, no. I'M SORRY. I'M SORRY. I'M SORRY. NO, NO,

NO. THIS this parallel is complete. This parallel does not make sense at all. And I no about 10,000 people.

>> Okay. You said that parallel does not make sense. >> Another counter. Now, you mentioned that

that is why the appellet process exists because if our vote gets like our voting right gets removed, I can go and appeal.

>> For your mistakes, why the hell should I go and appeal to the courts? >> No. Because because you make a technical

mistake. Because Because you make a technical mistake. Why should we go up to the court? In Goa 97 valid citizens

were removed from electoral roles and they were reinstated as valid BECAUSE OF TECHNICAL GLITCHES

GLITCHES. Why should they? >> No. What are these technical glitches? Discrepancy in spellings, discrepancy in

relations, discrepancy in previous records, >> discrepancy in dialects. Even if the

dialect, if these discrepancies are there, it's not a question of whose mistake it is. Right? At the end of the

day, there is discrepancy and whenever there's a discrepancy in such an important matter such as elections and

voter list, right? We need to ensure who's who. >> This is not a corporate company where

you can make a mistake in a software code and then it's okay to make a mistake, we'll fix it back in the next

bug fix. That's not how this works. S were made constitutional in a way that it needs to be done right on the first

time. Correct? So the previous SI was let me complete let me be complete. So the previous SI was done on ground. Now

you have include automated software into this and the automated software is not written properly. There's a lot of

technical glitches. You cannot just say we are shifting INTO THE NEW WORLD. NO NO

if there's a discrepancy if there's a discrepancy in matching >> should have FIXED BEFORE YOU IMPLEMENT.

>> No that's not a software discrepancy. software the software no problem the problem being flagged here is firstly

the software flags any changes in spellings changes in relations changes in residencies right now that is not

there's not a problem of the software itself it's the it's it's proofs that it's doing its job of flagging any

discrepancies so that is why BLO's are on the ground trying to verify any such discrepancies that is why we have an

upate process [applause] >> all Right. I'd like to uh recall a learn

an earlier point you made about how it all comes down to systematic error that the new software that's been introduced

is to be blamed. >> The software is software that's what essentially you said

>> software is not to be blamed. >> It's imperfect. Those are your exact words.

>> No no the software is does not account for such changes. Right. >> You said it's imperfect.

>> No no I didn't say it's imperfect. It's it does not account for those exact words. No, no, no. Those are You said

it's imperfect. >> All right. Fine, fine. Let's assume I said it's imperfect.

>> You did. >> Okay. And do you think that the CEC who responsible for the votes of an entire

population of a country? >> Not solely. >> He's one of three.

>> Wait for me. >> He's one of three. >> He is responsible. Is he not?

>> He is >> collectively responsible. >> But he is responsible in the end. That's

bottom line. A man who is responsible for the voters of a country. Should he be gambling those votes on an imperfect

system at all? >> No, no, no, no. He is not gambling. [applause]

He he is not gambling on anything. Right. The problem here is there's discrepancies in spelling names in

different documents, right? Let's say the other cards has one name. The the BO card if there if applicable has another.

The Epic has another name. The driver's license has another name. All these discrepancies are validly flagged by the

software because you cannot gamble by information discrepancies. We're better off flagging such discrepancies and and

and getting it corrected by people or BLO's on ground than a software thinking oh a small change of information is

enough right so we'd rather have perfect accountability from software end and humans checking out the the mistakes if

any than the software itself bypassing any mistakes. So it's not a gamble. Actually, I'd like to I' I'd propose

this properly that the fact that such so many discrepancies are arising is because the software is doing its job of

flagging any and all discrepancies. >> But it's creating an imperfect system. It's what it's doing. No, you seem

all right. Hello. >> Okay. So I agree with your point that

Ganesh Kumar has done nothing wrong because if seen through my eyes, what he has done is a blunder.

>> Okay. Now three things that you said while debating with all my co- protesters or whatever you say them

>> you said that there's no uh proof that those 14 were just allegation that >> the 14 no I said the 14 the alleged 14

are not been published so so it could have it could have been it could have been hey Mr. Ganesh I don't like the

shirt color you're wearing for all we know right so we need publication of these documents to know whether what is

being said is right or wrong >> all right let me complete my point I'll prove uh your three points what you said

and what are the reality behind it first thing you said that there's no publication but the meeting only

happened on 9th of September and these decisions were taken prior to it how are these decisions being made when there

was no consortium being agreed to >> no no no I'm sorry all all orders passed by all orders was notified by the

election commission are all unanimous orders. All three signatures are there when they three DID NOT COME BUT THE

CHARTING OF A WHATSAPP UNIVERSITY HOW YOU PROPAGATE >> we do not know right but the pro point

is all three of them unanimously CAME TOGETHER AND PASS THE PUBLICATION of that they came unanimously together

>> because all three of them signed those orders all three has signed those orders right that's how

>> the orders were signed by the CC not >> all three all three need to sign the order that's the point unanimous because

the seating only happened on 9th of September and these all orders were passed before it

>> no no orders passed before them have been unanimously passed. All three signatures are there. We're talking

about the Bengal S the approval of list of 11 documents and later Supreme Court amending saying Aada should also be the

12th document added. All of them were approved by all three sitting election commissioners. So on a later date if

descent arose that is that is the fault of the person dissenting because earlier he agreed now he's changing his mind or

it raises serious concern on the media house that is reporting the story. But again when you are not coming together

unanimously when there is no recording that you all came together to agree on a unanimous point. How is that point

unanimous? How do I know that the recording is the three signatures? >> HOW DO I know that these those

signatures were not based on coercion? Second thing that you said that whatever this aeronet problem is arising and like

there is no technical like technical difficulties can be gambled on our votes. Time was given in Goa. 94 people

were proved. Can I just Yeah, 94 people were proved to be legitimate voters. So 94 is just a small number. However, the

dates dates started coming closer and there was no uh you know uh u like no uh this thing given to the BLOs's at the

local level to change the list that was so made based on you know the discrepancies that your system

generated. Even the mail which was forwarded to Sema Kana was not replied by the IT head of the ECI themselves. So

like where is the accountability lying in all this scenario? [applause]

>> Hello again. >> Welcome back. >> Okay so I'll have to put forward um two

things here. Um number one the digital portal is probably the stupidest thing to implement in India. My bank has been

trying to implement that for the past 15 years. is not working dog. They are so slowig

the entire the digital thing the digitalization of this >> it is a known fact that the Indian

bureaucracy is slow it's extremely slow. So stripping people of that right which is the most fundamental right in a

democracy and I don't mean that in the sense of a legal fundamental right I mean it's the most crucial right that a

person can have in a democracy and you are stripping a person away uh when you know that your bureaucratic systems are

bad am I talking about the legality of it no I'm talking about the policy aspect of it second point is that people

have a right to protest against decisions that they they feel where they feel that they have been disadvantaged

so even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and I come in here and tell you everything has been done legally

>> the people do feel that there's a delegitimization of that for very valid reasons including the impacts that were

felt upon the people including the large exclusion of people on the s now it is the responsibility of the state to come

and prove that its apparatus is transparent to come and prove that its apparatus is accountable which Ganesh

>> which is happening in the courts as he speak >> which Ganesh Kumar has not come in and

told me that >> why would Ganesh Kumar come and tell the allegations have been raised against

him. It is >> he's given press releases denying all allegations brought out in the Indian

Express >> except the signature required itself is of the CEC. The signature is not

required all of it. It's just that the >> only the chief election commissioner does not have power to pass anything by

himself. >> Yeah, that's the point. He doesn't have the power to pass anything by himself

>> and he has not he can't. >> Yeah, you're right. But it is and he has um

>> where >> allegedly has let's say right allegedly. No um

>> but but the CC signs the documents. So you're conflating >> and the other and the other election

commissioners by the way >> the other election commissioners claim that they have not been involved in

these decisions altogether including calling in the have been published. >> It is the Indian express report that

says this not the election commissioners themselves. >> Yeah.

>> But the election commission in a press release has come and denied this. So we are in the situation

>> but the entire point is that the state now okay apart from just that issue itself the state also has a

responsibility to prove to me that it is largely legitim legitimate which the state hasn't done because the state has

been taking actions like detailing protesters now the right to protest itself the fact that it has to be done

in an this institutional setup let's look at Karnataka for example that it has to be done within freedom part when

when the government um when the government itself goes ahead and sort of um protest um unlawfully

um or illegitimately within other places and then arrest people. What does these thing what do these things come and tell

you is the fact that the state is also acting unlawfully against the people. So obviously people start to trust these

systems less. >> No no no see the point of having a a leg a legitimate or a legal protest as such

is is firstly in recognition of the right to protest itself. Right? We can voice out how many how much we want on

social media. We're completely unrestricted when we're coming together and and staying in a place. Firstly, it

is a security risk, right? Firstly, it's a security risk. Law and order is very important. Uh thirdly, about the train

stations themselves the day before. So, this this is on the 9th of October, 2,000 passengers lost were unable to

catch the train because of the huge commotion cost even even before the protest took place. So of course it is

very prudent for a responsible government to shut down these places to ensure no other such problems occur. So

it is in in furtherance of safety of the people. 10,000 people can't randomly come and decide we're going to block the

roads. We're going to come flip vehicles. We're going to demand accountability. There are ways to demand

accountability. In fact the CJP itself has carried out a legitimate protest right during the student and to their

credit they managed to get the education minister even resigned. So when you have clear options as to how to carry it on,

how you don't, you pick the worst option. So obviously you're forcing the government to act.

>> Okay, >> I close it off. Um firstly, let's understand the fact that a formal

recognition of a right to protest is not is insufficient largely because it does not have impact. This has been proven by

several social movements that are there. Secondly, the fact that you claim that it's suddenly these lawful protests that

were carried out by CJP but people were still detained in those protest people were still beaten up and

>> obviously when you turn violent obviously the state has to reciprocate >> when when the state is coming and um um

the state is coming and largely beating up students. They're sexually harassing students and there are clips of these

that are going that is mass spread and the state doesn't even care to sort of the police are not wearing name tags.

Why does the state get to perform? Why does the state get to break its um you know authority and sort of go ahead and

and harm the same people that it claims to pro uh protect? [applause]

>> Hello. >> Hi. Um you mentioned that the protests were

only intimated 3 days in advance and the state does not have enough time to >> the police department doesn't have

enough time to in a city like Delhi, right? when when there's a lot of people living and when you're protesting

jantaar mantra which is like the hardest >> how were they able to mobilize the number of personnel that they one second

how were they able to mobilize that many person >> on emergency basis obviously

>> obviously [applause] have to no no >> if THEY HAD IF THEY HAD ENOUGH IF they had enough time to mobilize that many

>> no there's a difference there's a difference between mobilization and arranging and preparing for a protest

when you're preparing for a protest the police is basically cooperating with you to ensure the protest happens. That's

what hap that's what happens in freedom park. That's what happened in Jar Mantra before the whole thing turned violent.

There are police there violent. >> The protesters themselves >> the protesters themselves obviously.

>> No, no, no. The protesters the protesters called to the protest the protesters called to

march to the parliament and and the police did not allow for it because it's a clear blatant security risk. But

despite all warnings, the students did breach the barrier and go ahead, which left the state no choice but to take

preventive action. >> With preventive action, what what about all the vehicles? What

about all the vehicles that were flipped? >> All the all the police property that was

damaged. >> What proof do you have that those were the peaceful protesters?

>> Oh, so so there were harmful protesters within the protesters, right? That's the point.

>> Planted by the government. >> Why? What? Why would the government plan Why would the government plan?

[applause] >> No. No. First off, first off, you don't have proof. Secondly, you can't just say

the No, you can't just say the government goes on saying planting protesters to turn it violent, right?

>> THERE WERE TRUCKS. THERE WERE TRUCKS brought in with stones. There were trucks brought in with stones. That is

going to protest. We We do not We do not know who brought those trucks. And No, no, no. We No. No, no, no.

>> No. So, does that does that amount to the government? Is the government responsible for them?

>> YES. >> NO. SEE, SEE THIS IS see this is why you need to make sure that there's safety

when a protest is happening. What's to say a bunch of saffron wearing people? No. No. What's what's to say a bunch of

saffron wearing people come and attack these innocent peaceful protesters? That is why you need to ensure there's safety

in protest. I mean there's no safety. Why do why do you just assume it's against the protesters, right? What

about what about the government trying to ensure the safety of these protesters? These are these are as these

are aspects which are not considered in mass media, but these are what actually discussions take place behind closed

doors in government room. >> You're telling me the police gave so much of a about protester safety,

but they showed up with stones, sexually harassed the protesters, showed up with sticks and detained large number of

protesters. That doesn't scream concern about protesters safety. [applause] >> THIS THIS

>> see it's about preventive action and I cannot condone whatever sexual harassment they did right only imagine

>> it's not even about the sexual harassment in general there was harassment.

>> Yeah. So see that that is clear over >> there was senior citizens hit by sticks. Correct. Correct. There were young

students hit by sticks. There were phones broken. >> Correct.

>> There were in what's her name? uh Priyanka Gandhi sari was taken off >> correct that see that's horrible can't

condone any of that that's beyond justification right but >> so you're telling me a government that

condones those actions is concerned about protesttor safety >> no no I'm saying it's it this is even

before the protest began these many factors need to be considered this is why we you we intimate about protest

beforehand to make such necessary arrangements when the protest takes place despite this it leads to whatever

consequences which took place which is a completely bad right. The police need to be held accountable. The home ministry

needs to come out and answer for whatever wrong that they've done whoever is responsible. But the point is

ultimately that the protest should not have taken place when the state when the law and order situation is not ready for

it. >> But the very but the right to protest doesn't account for all of this. The

right to protest means that you can show up and protest whenever you want. Okay. I [applause]

I KIND OF HAD ONE MORE POINT so but I forgot. I'll come back. >> Hello.

[laughter] >> I see how it is. >> Take it.

>> I see how it is. Sorry, I don't like your government. [clears throat] Okay, fine. I'll start off very simply.

What are your thoughts on freedom of speech and the right to a peaceful protest?

>> Essential for a democracy. >> And how do you find the way that they're handling the current protests and the

right to freedom of speech at the moment? >> All right. So firstly, the situation in

Delhi is very unfortunate. Whatever happening, whatever is happening should not happen. And the fault for that also

lies on the people who have been mobilized who not not more than the people who are being mobilized the

people who are mobilizing these people right the people sitting in the top the great manuv varati and like Abhijit dipk

the savior from the US all these people rakash raj god all these people who come and like just insight people into come

and move in places where they they don't have permission right like clearly the government has rejected permission still

they call for people to go to Delhi and mobilize people. Right? So this is in violation. We have right to peaceful

protest. But when the government is not >> violating that obvious following against the people that are

finding so many >> where is this opportunity? No. First up there's not an opportunity to protest.

>> It's a well awaited and long coming. >> So so they can give a notice earlier like they did in the student protest.

Get all the systems ready and then come protest properly. Right. I invite all protest, all descent.

>> You could say all this, but what is going to happen when they ask for the permission? Do you really think they're

going to get it that easily? >> No. Then how did they get it during the student protest?

>> They got it and they found out that this place is a threat. They're a threat. >> So why are they coming there again then?

If it if [laughter] it's because we have a lot of things in this country to fix what you're talking all this about and

all. >> No. If if if they if they were to if they were able to handle a manage and

organize a protest in Bengaluru which was actually very peaceful, very respectful, right? uh then what's what's

the problem doing it in Delhi? >> See I'm going to be quite honest with you. I think even in Delhi everything

was peaceful. It is the cops that are really coming after the people. you I think yesterday only there was

[applause] >> okay there was a whole thing where there was a segregation of the people

supporting your ghanes right okay >> they were on the other side but who is getting beaten up the people on this

side >> is that only because they're not coming in such strong who's going to support

them I guess you what what about the safety and integrity of the city when so many people are coming in it is very

natural for enemy forces or any unfriendly forces >> safety of democracy

>> that is why you have courts. [applause] That is why we have that is why we have the courts looking into the matter. That

is why we have responsible officers in that position asking resignation of one person who frankly is not responsible

for whatever problems they claim to have is not is not protecting democracy at all.

>> So the fact of the matter is what I would say is he may not be the entire cause of it. It is a group of people in

power that are hosting the power to have all this come through. No no no no no but but the the cause is cause is

[clears throat] decentralization not centralization right all that I don't know I think it's corruption and we are

trying to hold people accountable for all of it [applause] >> see the see ultimately there are other

means in which you hold people accountable not break security of >> I guess the peaceful protest should work

for that right it worked in Bengaluru why can't it work in Delhi no it worked IT WORKED FOR STUDENT PROTEST RIGHT IF

YOU STILL >> it worked for student protest >> how many times do you see people beating

beating up the cops. How many times you see cops beating up the people? [cheering]

[applause] >> See when it is very natural for a protest to turn violent

>> and such unfortunate circumstances do happen and protests turn violent. >> That is why it is upon the state to

ensure it doesn't turn violent >> by turning it violent >> where the government doesn't turn it

violent. >> I mean all I am seeing at the moment as far as I am addicted to Instagram reels

and I'm sure a lot of people here also are correct. I am going through all I see at least every two posts there's

something about the protest and is women being dragged out by their hair pulled by their clothes. I Okay, fine. Maybe

I'm taking the women's side because obviously they're not as ah that's we have like different physical aspects

to our bodies and that's not something to be argued with. I think also >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm saying it's

obviously less safe for women to be beaten up by three four male cops dragging them into a

>> it is unsafe for anyone to be beaten by anyone right this kind of categorization is completely unnecessary and it's an

unfortunate circumstance I agree with you on that aspect >> for who is it un

>> for the whole country >> exactly >> for the whole country right it's very

unfortunate that that is why we need we need trans we need proper organization of protest themselves HOW HOW IN YOUR

OPINION how would you organize a peaceful protest peaceful than this one peaceful

>> more peaceful what they did in Bengaluru what they did in the student protest in in Delhi right apart from them marching

to the to the parliament everything else was perfectly fine and and they actually got their outcome right they're so proud

of it the education minister resigned so now one resignation is done now infinity stones they're thinking oh chief

election commissioner next let me collect that also like the people who are mobilizing these these mass stu

students are like people who are actually inocent who who are just bothered citizens who

want better they being used as political pawns to get resignations now so that uh in in his

>> I think uses pawns to bring accountability from the government I think I'll end with THAT [applause]

[laughter] I know I know [music]

>> first edition of spicy confession Slept with my class teeth.

>> Had a threesome with a couple. >> I called a person fat and he fainted. >> Been with three girls simultaneous.

>> Got physical with my first cousin's girl. I my best friend and ghosted her after

>> head in Thailand when in 2-year relationship. What? No way.