Understanding the Role of Tribals in Forest Conservation and Sustainable Development

[Music] hello and welcome to a wonderful edition of uh the new indian expresses uh

expressions we have the inimitable professor s p roy with us he's as

dr ota describes him he's the grand old man of uh let's cut out the old well let's just

say the grand man of uh tribal development and tribal studies in india and we have uh uh dr otta who's

the director of the tribal research institute and we're doing this on international forest day so that's very

significant uh because we thought we'd focus on our tribals and their relationship to the forest

and there's been so much conversation around that uh on how the tribals relate to uh their

forests and what they think of it but uh there's not enough uh there are not enough people i think who actually

intimately lived with them talk to them and understand the diversity of the tribals and the diversity of the

biodiversity but uh both professor roy and raphael are people who really spent their lives

with them uh and i'd like to begin with professor roy and then go on to dr ota professor roy at this moment when we

talk about tribals and forest development what is the first thing that strikes you you know we think of the

depletion of the forest cover uh as being the first thing but as dr ota was telling me uh there has been an increase

in the last three years so we really don't know much about what's happening could you enlighten us

uh yes thank you very much uh kaveri ma'am uh

this is on the day of world forestry day yeah as an internationally this recognizes a

very important day for the forest and sustainable development right

and we are taking tribe as one component right when we talk of sustainable development

it is not for tribal alone but today we are talking while thinking about the subtle

development role of the forest how important is tribal contribution tribal culture and

tribal development so broadly uh sustainable development and contribution of tribal in forest

conservation for social development and for tribal development also for tribal development also right yeah so here we

see globally we are passing through

some common problem whichever

human history has witnessed and that is climate change

it's a global problem not for india or pakistan or burma or russia or america all of us have one

problem climate change is a secondary humanity now when you go further understanding

the climate change which is one of the important issue of social development because unless we

address climate change we can't think of development right so what are the cause for that unless we understand the cause

we can't address the issue so uh it is now universally accepted four or

five important cause one of the important cause is that uh accommodation of carbon dioxide gas and

other gases uh uh which

picks in the human environment uh it causes warmth

in addition to carbon dioxide the gas like the from the nitrogen use of chemical nitrous oxide

some methane is a food so all these gases if these are not at

this too we are not going to address the issue of sustainable development climate change

now where from we can think of a

carbon dioxide think removal of carbon and we call it carbon sequestration that

means how the earth system plant

seed soil will absorb carbon

and keep up the soil that is carbon substitution here interestingly

the forest is a larger system which absorbs

carbon for carbon situation and then of the forest the natural forest which is more

important for carbon simulation and another interesting thing when we think

that for carbon situation natural forest is important and

natural forest the territory is mostly inhabited directly or indirectly by indigenous

type of people another interesting that means if you want to address the conversation

if you want to address the substantive development if you want to address the humanity as a

whole and not travel alone humanity as a whole so we have to think of the indigenous forest and indigenous

community this is the major point of our understanding uh maybe any scientist but any kind of research any normal

cannot ignore about the importance of biodiversity and indigenous people so this is why we have a thought of

discussing what are the major factors which will be helping us for addressing

the issue of climate change sustainable development through

indigenous tribes and the indigenous forest this is the

globally i will take two normally hardly there are two percent of the population of

indigenous community and more than 60 percent of the biodiversity is directly used or managed

by the this indigenous people so you can understand how important are indigenous people who are in directly indirectly

managing or using the world's richest biodouble city which is responsible for carbon sequestration which is

responsible for sustainable development all of us and in india also i'm trying to grow in

india also if you go through the data even from the indian express

for indian forest survey it is found that while there has been greening

increase in the forest i repeat there has been greening increase of the forest cover

but the carbon sequestration has not been by all the forests

very interesting the carbon situation which is responsible for carbon sink

which is responsible for climate change which responsible software development is confined to we call it as for the

government report tribal district of indigenous forest not all forests

tribal district of indigenous forests say you have seen the report it is published in the newspaper karnataka has

more greening due to plantation maybe thousand square kilometer

andhra pradesh is nearly 900 but the carbon situation has been less

there why is that why is that professional yeah why that

see uh carbon sufficient

is a process of biological activity right now the biological activity will be

functioning only when certain parts work together okay uh not uh just one part i'll give you an

example if your heart has to work right so the cell of the heart are different from the cell of your lungs or intestine

right or your skin or muscle so the carbon secretion system

is the interdependence certain biodiversity right not a single plant alone right so

when we do plantation we have plantation of one or two species but the functioning of the heart

depends on the number of interdependent species is on the forest ecosystem right so in

order to conserve that natural forest ecosystem which is remotely still surviving with

indigenous people where we have not removed those rare species

those threatened species those key note species so all these species interact together

to function as a forest ecosystem so not a single tree you may have thousands

of miles of plantation but that is not the ecosystem if your system has some for plants and trees which form the

interdependent park and and indigenous people they understand

which part they have to remove which is not because they consider themselves

as a part of the system but why why have yeah sorry sorry do not consider themselves as a manager

whereas forrester will consider not a part of the foreign security

he will consider as a manager you can understand the difference between the approach and the knowledge

if you are becoming a part of your heart you work differently and the surgeon will be operating your heart will be

looking hard from differently so the indigenous people are they consider themselves their part of their

ecosystem their knowledge their belief

they connect their ancestor with the trees and wildlife the totem relationship

the origin that is why they consider

the forest ecosystem as a cosmological relationship

not a kind of mechanical relationship their spirit their culture

is interconnected with a tree and species so the whole approach of understanding

ecosystem is different of the integers community than a forest

manager why have we not been able to transfer the uh tribal model

of the relationship with nature and biodiversity to

non-tribal communities uh that's very interesting i'm very happy to share that

the government of india the ministry of tribal affair

uh with the approaches of the forest right act has been

trying to understand first we have to understand the tribal culture which helps in conservation exactly

yeah they then only can replay you are right right so

this approach of the ministry to understand uh through the

forest resource conservation one is a forest can use the tree but

what is the natural forest resource as a whole system that comes under fra by the government

of india through this year for tribal affair and this has been

linked with the biological diversity act 2002 right where it is mentioned under section 41

that the knowledge of the community uh

this is as a part of the patent it should be recognized and it should be registered

and it it has to be seen as a part of the whole forest ecosystem it's not only the forest alone

it's for all biodiversity that is why the initiation by the government of india through biological diversity act

to prepare pbr people's biodiversity register this pbr is one of the instrument

through which indigenous knowledge will be

recorded the rare species the other species will be recorded over

there so that while conservation continue they can also have economy and livelihood

so these are the two important act of the government of india one is biological diversity act 2002 one is fra

2006 so these are the approaches and means uh but uh of course so we'll discuss the

challenges in uh implementation of these two but this is a good beginning we must

appreciate this is a good beginning yeah from the government of india right and and this is why this is recognized

by united nations also in their article 33 you ask about the india why the model

is not replicated even the united nations article 33 they have referred the indigenous

knowledge which favors conservation should be replicated and should be

encouraged that is the article 33 and there is another act under cbd convention of biological

diversity their article 8 j it is mentioned very

categorically that indigenous people should be made partner

in the conservation planning and their

benefits should be taken care on the priority and very interestingly i also like it i

also repeat it we should not consider tribal as beneficial i told you earlier also right we are beneficiary if they

conserve so the whole of our approach that as if we are doing some mercy or providing

dole to the tribal right we should not we have to make them as a partner use their indigenous knowledge for their

own survival and the survival of the humanity as a whole right dr otta may i bring you in here because as director of

the tribal research institute in uh odissa you're one of the it's one of the 27 uh tris in the country and uh

this is the work that tris are doing and you were telling me uh recently of uh how tri orista is actually helped in

locating uh 600 springs uh all over uh which is fascinating and the government had promised that it would locate

a thousand springs nationwide 600 have already been located in odisha thanks to

uh tapping the indigenous knowledge of tribals can we talk a little about these wonderful best practices that need to be

now be showcased and in a way brought into the national uh discourse uh certainly thank you thank you so much

uh taking you know a cue from what professor uh roy said i'm just you know going ahead well my research institute

is the oldest of all the tribal research institute of the country okay when was it set up it was set up in 1952

yeah right i i must tell you what our tri is doing and what many other tiaras

are doing differently you see just two best practices i should say why

even a couple of more practices i will also say to see that

the forest right act and for its diversity the forest is

protected what all steps we have taken one thing i'll tell you forest cannot be seen in isolation right

a plantation of trees cannot be seen in isolation or a tree which you know

provides oxygen to you is also will also not be taken in isolation right what we have been doing

let me tell you um first of all you see when in 2006 the

forest right act got promulgated and in 2007 december uh the rules also

you know were announced by government of india you know it's a

central act what we did we tried to

there's a very very you know new act it promises a lot of things but you have to convince the tribals you have to win

their heart you have to make them understand otherwise they're very culture bound they won't listen to you

so what we did you know in tiara orisa we translated the uh

important you know part the operational part of the act and its objective in 21 tribal languages

we hold a number of you know um what is a capacity building training

program on site in the among the communities we also built you know

the frontline community workers who can take it forward you see when a new act came

there was also all the officers who were to implement it also were not in the single

same page we even brought all kinds of stakeholders and we provided them

training program we prepared you know in collaboration with undp

a an interactive you know you know cd which was extremely helpful in understanding how to take it forward

how to apply for the claims how to scrutinize it and how to get it approved not only with the you

know keeping at the back of the mind that you have to reject the cases so that you know paved the way

and you see orisa is that is why the leader in the entire country in terms of you

know giving more than 4.75 lakhs of individual forest titles so far right

next important thing is that only forest right is not going to help you only plantation is not going to help you they

have to exist you are giving a piece of land in the name of the tribal which they have been dealing for ss

but you know it has to be made productive for productive you need water sources

what we found in tribal research in situ that there are so many uh perennial

streams right or springs you can say which has a great potential if that can

be tapped probably irrigation can be made available by the tribal themselves it can serve their agriculture purpose

it can give them more productivity in their land they forest land which is given in the

name of tribals under the fra can be meaningfully used to

source the livelihood apart from that it can also provide them water for drinking which is very scarce

in you know hilltops so the mission which was started by

ministry of tribal affairs for thousand spring initiative has now touched about 300 music by ministry at

various places but what we did in tri we have identified the report of which will be

available by end of april 620 or 25 i don't remember correctly we have identified

strip you know springs once we give that you know to government of risa i think

in phases those you know springs can be tapped and it can be channelized for irrigation

purpose second important thing you must remember [Music]

a lot of forest fire takes place you see you plant and you see on the other hand forest

fire so we submitted a president to the ministry of

tribal affairs and we have taken two states one madhya protest and the other

five five ten districts here five districts and in madhya's five districts and in collaboration with iifm

bhopal we are undertaking a study to know the dynamics so why forest fire is happening

because unless you take care of the forest fire you understand why it is happening is there a cultural

is there a reason you know which is cursed for some other thing so one has to find out and

ministry has given us you know mandate that will come up on the basis of the finding

a framework which will be used and shared by the ministry to all other states

so that this furthest fair can be combatted these are some of the things you see

just to give you an indication which tri odessa is doing which will probably help a lot in

addressing this issue right professor roy this is just one institute i mean there are

as we said 26 others and there's the work that institutions like you are doing

so uh really what uh you know as you said there's there needs to be a national framework there needs to be a

national repository of all this wisdom so that we can all share from each other you know how does one do that

two approaches which has been universally asked for

the first is instead of learning for individual some plants

as a quick buff making it in the name of greening one has to understand

the ecosystem as a whole landscape and

this decade 10 year is considered as a decade of

ecosystem restoration by united nations india is also one of the signatory so the approach will be identify the

landscape as a whole where the nature

and the culture of the community it should be compatible

i repeat nature when we say nature the land biodiversity water livestock the wildlife

all these natural ecosystem with the culture of the community that means how community

see perceive national phenomenon

right as a entity of co-existence and this has been designed

by ibrah and has been now sponsored by the ministry of tribal

affairs to identify the ecosystem in shaktisgarh

and also in urisa and with a broad approach we have taken three more states like

west bengal uh jharkhand and now we'll be taking for the

northeast also tripura and assam so the approach is ecosystem not individual number two

for making the compatibility of the culture see culture

is a continuous process it is never static it keeps on changing

so while culture keep on changing one can facilitate

those cultural behavior which favors conservation right

and it is it is not possible just by framing act and rule

we have to change the cultural ethos of the organization of the community

here community when i say not

alone tribal because the tribal will be

interacting with the non-tribal in the same landscape so this will help tribal

if we build capacity while they are conserving the natural resources forest and livelihood

we recognize their culture and practices and also work together with the non-tribal who

will respect tribal culture and work together so this will be one of the approach of mainstreaming of the

tribal and respecting their culture i i repeat here very streaming is while you

identify the uniqueness of the culture make use of it restrict it so that the tribal do not consider

as a as a kind of inferior to anyone right so that is the mainstreaming and the third part of this

that do not plan for a single activity like

agriculture or fishery there are nine activities which has been designed by iran

and all those nine activities are interdependent and we call it ratan

because each ratan is important for the community just i i tell

the first ratan for the driver or anyone that near their household

plant homestead we have to start organic vegetable organic kitchen garden right

so immediately there will be reduction on the pressure for going to forest because if you find

something immediately around their heart

so this is one and then drip irrigation which is a minimum use of water because most of this tribal area they suffer

from the water scarcity because of depletion drying up so and it's not very expensive so drip irrigation will drop

adopt it it reaches and then come for any agricrop agriculture here in agriculture it is

what we have it done and the ministry has also appreciated even the icr indian consequence

pulses those pulses which has got a value of nitrogen succession

the soil improves okay yeah and then go for organic vermicompost a thing with the water

conservation comes the fishery and then agroforestry agroforestry

where some of the plant combination works better which plant will go with that so

agroforestry will help but economic soil conservation and also very interestingly the topic which i was

saying about the carbon sequestration there are certain communities on a plant which go better with that

and then comes for fodder for livestock because when you talk of the livestock and if you do not plan for the fodder

it cannot be there so the all these nine has to be in place what happens uh dr ota will appreciate

he will tell what happens each sector say agriculture department they will beat their own drum

of agricrop fishery will come someday and talk of the fishery

water people will come some they talk forest will talk so each one will play their instrument differently so there is

no orchestra so the harmony is not there so what is now plan for convergence of

all these resources work together identify the landscape

what is appropriate for cultivation and this is conservation

with the convergence of all the sector resources

and harmonizing right through micro planning through people's participation

and this is very very important dr kota will appreciate about the convergence of resources for sustainable

tribal development which will have a good for the livelihood biodiversity and the health of the

forest also and health of the community also right dr otto you want to take it from there

yeah you see um

told something let me just tell you in fact uh try podesta and ibrad

we are doing together a good work he spoke about convergence you know right from first plant period

if you see till 12th planned period and beyond even during dt iowa's regime there have been different kinds of

tribal development strategies fund has been flowing there is no depth of fund you know for tribal development

but if you see while tribal development has happened some you know human development key

human development indicators have considerably improved here yet the pace of tribal development has been

very slow so what we and ibrahim together gave a proposal

to the ministry then somewhere something is going wrong and probably there is a need for

convergence often same work is being done by ex department

and the same department is done by the white department the left hand doesn't know what the

right hand is doing often i'm not saying you know there's a practice so we thought that we'll try to find out

how convergence can be taken as an approach with a

you know defined modality so that the fund can be spent yet the benefits can accrue to the tribals

more sustainably so that is what we are aiming at having said that

i will tell you one thing this conservation come development ccd approach they say

this was for the first time because you know every five years

government of india planning commission will think that let us take stock of tribal development and will say that

tribal development has not happened at the pace at which it was to happen so they will come up with a different kind

of strategy in 2009 a different approach was propagated what

is that approach conservation come development so this conservation from development

became the approach you know of government

it has paid off it basically tried to see how

development can happen without infringing upon the culture of tribal too much

and also trying to learn from the tribal culture and try to see if that can fit in or integrated with other kinds of

development approaches that we have in this regard i will tell you one you know instance

uh you know unesco has been identifying intangible cultural heritages okay

okay the other day we met you know eric the you know country head of unesco and we're discussing

there is one particular you know traditional heritage agricultural system which is called as tas

thas one of the best examples you find amongst two tribal communities of korea

one is the bunda you must have heard about bunda highlanders right and the other one is sora

another you know tribal community who is also a pivot teacher what they do you know

they do very beautiful kind of stone binding to you know see that the soil and water

management is done in the best possible manner soil erosion doesn't take place it is arrested and the water also you

know how very carefully it can be used so that it

can spread over you know more you know extent of land and it is a very very

good practice unesco also have come have seen that and have taken cognizance of it

so if such you know indigenous practices which has a replicability and which can also enhance

the [Music] opportunity for

sustainable livelihood should also be tried more and more and it can be expanded more and more in

china one thing you asked which probably you know puts a lie

because he has told so many things missed out you said that so many good things are done

whether we are trying to put it in a repository yeah a national nationwide repository yes i tell you

minister of tribal affairs have done a national

you know uh tribal document repository where not only the documents which

37 you know center of excellences like the uh roy's you know institute twenties you know seven tris and many

other agencies are doing they are you know keeping it in dedicated portal

that portal is not only you know uh consists of reports you know

it also consists of video clippings right it also consists of photographs and it also consists of process

documentation so that one can easily follow how to adopt it

right wonderful uh professor roy and professor and uh dr otter just last thoughts on

the centrality of forests uh in uh the tribal's tribal life and what we can do to

continue to maintain that centrality in the given situation with the kind of development that we see taking place

and to respect the that centrality one thing that

we all human use our intelligence knowledge

right this is universal for the tribe or non-travelling right we all are also guided

and conditioned our thought with our belief system and the belief system is more powerful

in governing my mindset and controlling my action the tribal belief system

is more akin to their ancestral practices

where they relate with the totem they relate

with the spiritualism and such kind of notion has given the birth of

a good product i will call it product sacred group the sacred group of

in most tribal villages are some of the species which are

conserved together and they believe some deity is there they worship it

such kind of a sacred group uh

almost all part of the country but meghala and other parts have been studied by many biologists maybe two

have studied in meghalaya nearly 125 of sacred groups

and more than 500 species are conserved is a magnificent effort of the tribal

that conservation of such species is not only important just as a number of trees

but these circuit groups work as a pivot for ecosystem maintenance of the entire

landscape right so this is very very important approach of the tribal

what we should think of documentation has been done but the replication of such sacred group

needs to be done in a more scientific social

and political also right when i say political means a political will to promote sacred grief

respect sacred group this has not been done

more in the form of the political will respecting making an agenda of sacred group right and i tell you

such kind of sacred group may not be in the form of the way tribal death

but in most all religion even hindus washing of people yeah tulsi yeah

exactly yeah so these kind of promotion will help in biodiversity

and such circuit group have been playing a very powerful role in enriching the

soil quality of the neighboring area so if that soil quality improves it will also improve the agriculture

production it will also improve the number of birds

and an insect which are important

pollinators of the nature so this kind of approach is one which we have been also trying

and the second one as it happens ma'am

each society is having a younger generation right and each younger generation

may not like to follow what their ancestors have been doing it happens in the tribal also

right and uh they sometimes come at the cross road because they have their exposure

because of their education because education has been promoted by the government we want school colleges right

now when they go for school and colleges uh we can't uh uh expect them they will remain in their village and go for

sacred group or conservation they need to look for some opportunity so for them

for them some kind of a ecological economic career i i i am very fond of using this

true term because unless ecology is sustainable tomorrow economy will be weakened

so this has to be linked together for them the strategy

a kind of career or the ecological economic may be in the name of a

farmer's producer organization medicine plant which is which is coming up right and

also for the livestock a career plan on that correct so this regardless

and the last point for promotion women empowerment i have seen

most of the tribal women are more action-oriented

proactive come forward to take responsibility and deliver

so although there have been number of programs for uh women opportunities female education

but from the congenital point of view of sustainability uh they

take the backseat although they are the main actor yeah so how we link with them uh for the

ecological economy i i use the term ecological economic so whenever you think of any economy say school teacher

so the teacher will understand whether the water is there or not or the part of the city is there or not because the

haitian food what kind of food we are taking so even taking what kind of food and finally

the indigenous seed even for millet and kodo

uh this flex tissy also and

other crop which is coming in the tribal area this does not require a lot of

water for cultivation and it is paste resistant so it does not require

also lot of pesticide so we should promote and now all the nutrition the experts are promoting this

kind of food so we can have a seed bank seed bank for indigenous seed

which will be helping in multiple way because if the tribal understand it has

got a future so they will not go for rice and wheat growing and they may not go for buying chemical

fertilizer if they understand it the value so how to have a indigenous knowledge even the immediate is being

promoted export so the quality is also being sold so all these things should be not in

isolation it should be a package for the landscape approach for tribal development and again i say it's not the

tribal development it's a development of the ecosystem development of the society as a whole development of you ma'am

kaveri and espirito and ota development for all survival we have to care for the climate

right wonderful uh last thoughts uh uh dr ota uh yeah uh recovery man uh i i will only

tell you that there are acts and policies but

unless and otherwise you know spoke about the youths

and also the old generation the gap and all that the forest it is a fact that there's a

symbiotic relationship between forest and the tribals right correct

but then you know the forest cannot survive sustainably without the help of the

tribals right without policing that without nurturing it and without properly you know harnessing it

one thing i will tell you unless and otherwise the forest becomes a very sustainable source of livelihood

and lucrative source of livelihood for the youths the tribals with young tribals are not

going to you know stick to the forest right they will look for various avenues which

they should look for but you know to make it sustainable i think we must try to make the forest

a very good source of earning yet without you know

losing the density of the forest and the coverage of the forest look at the forest rights act

it promises it promises everything what professor i said and what i'm going to tell you right

we have individual forest right it doesn't say that you know you undo the century long injustice and only give

them they settle the land in their favor no you must have to ensure that you know it becomes productive

most important part which is not done so far which is very sudden implemented in terms of forest right act is the

community forest rights community forest right is very slow starter

once community forest right is you know done and it is properly managed with a clearly defined mechanism it can

give a lot of source of happening and last which is a non-starter so far as the forest right act is concerned

is the habitat trait of the for the pivot teachers it is a non-starter in the entire country

odisha is the only state which has identified filed in all cases you know they have it

right and probably we are going to give the habitat right in about six months time to the pivot teachers

last important thing only you know forest productivity

forest miner forest producers is not going to give

you know livelihood support to the tribals and also you know a win-win situation for the forest and titles

we have to have you know proper system in place for the minimum support

price for the miner forest produce though it is a skim

it is not a very successful successful scheme there are

only for 20 or 25 you know the minimum support price is provided that too it is not being handled you know the way it

should have and in tribal areas mfps are perishable there are many many

kind of you know mfps which are permissible we don't we don't have you know astoria

we don't have in a processing unit in tribal areas we don't have cold stories to keep

i think all these things are also need to be supported to encourage the tribals

and to see that they get you know decent opening from that so that they will take care of the forest forest survives and

the tribal survives and we survive thank you very much uh professor roy

thank you very much dr oda it was really a wonderful discussion and on a very important day the world forest day thank

you very much and all the best to all the work that you're doing thank you thank you thank you so much

[Music] you