Understanding the Sacredness of Human Sexuality and the Impact of Pornography

you know there's a reason why shame kicks in so big it's just screaming at us after we sin sexually it's precisely

because our sexuality is so sacred H it's not because our sexuality is trashy but it's So Glorious with the

glory of God wow and it's so personal I mean this is not just a body function we're more than we in our generation

realize our sexuality is very it's it's way down deep it's a profound part of us and when we injure and trash that deep

place within we immediately flip into the most profound anguish and shame it's it's an

indicator of the actual stature and Glory of human sexuality so I don't know what else to

do as a pastor except create a culture in a church where people can be honest wow and they can come clean on what's

not going well how they're and how they're really doing and we can live in honesty together that's good and nobody

is we're not polishing we're not we don't come to church to polish our righteousness we come to church to open

up about our Brokenness hello Saints and a how are you what's good with y'all hope you're

happy hope you're blessed hope you're whole hope you brush your teeth today oh and your

tongue that's where all the smell is you brush your cheeks yeah you got to brush your cheeks you know they have like

cheek cleaners I believe it I I just never did that yeah and you know what and brush your back tooth that's where

all the funk is at the back tooth that's crazy that's absolutely insane when the Fone hit the fans I'm going just jump

straight into it uh last week we had a very edifying and beautiful conversation with Ray and Janie ortland about their

book to the 10th Generation we talked about marriage and family and kids and you know how Ray was a hippie that

didn't smoke weed strange but you know it's obviously possible and strange but this I'm pretty sure a lot of hippies

didn't smoke I'm just saying the way the the the documentaries set up they doing LSD and acid and San Francisco something

like Anyway I we got R back to talk about

porn that's my introduction to this conversation I pass that was a great introduction you for

joining us yeah I love being with you guys no we love you being here so here's the thing I mean if so on this channel

people probably talk about this topic a lot pornography I've been very transparent very open about my wrestle

with it as a Christian um and What the Lord Has Done in my heart you know I've been free from porn for some years now

three years now uh just porn free and I it's been a a great freedom but we wanted to have a conversation with you

because you just have a different level of wisdom I mean you wrote a whole book on it you know and I'm not there and so

like when I we start thinking about having you on I was like man like I'm pretty sure we'll probably talk about

this topic again on this on this platform but you know I think that you will be a good icing on the cake of all

the stuff that we talked about on this platform leading up to this point um so this the the name of his book is called

the death of porn Men of Integrity building a world of nobility right and so one I I usually don't like asking

this question but why did you feel the need to write this book yeah as a pastor um most of the people in the church were

in their 20s and 30s and as the years went by um when I would have coffee with a guy I moved from wondering if porn was

an issue in his life wondering if in the last week or two he'd been exposed to porn to assuming that porn was part of

his life and in the last week or two he's been involved in porn I just had to take it for granted

because one of the one of the Privileges of being a pastor is people trusting

me opening up and we get to talking about what's really going on H and how we're not doing well I love those

conversations I feel so honored to be involved in somebody's life like that and I love to open my life too so in

that kind of transparent honest open environment I came to realize porn is the wallpaper of our

culture now wow it's just everywhere and it's not just that that we're looking at porn that porn is looking for

us wow when we're not looking at it it's still knocking on the door my my uh email address ended up on the dark

web a few months ago and I began to get emails and they weren't good and and I always have two immediate

responses when one of those shows up my first response and I hate this about myself my first response

is huh H and my second response and I'm grateful for this is

anger cuz that precious girl or that woman she didn't volunteer for that she was beaten into

it she was mistreated somebody took her soul away and lied to her wow and and and and

coerced her into that wherever porn goes coercion goes degradation goes trafficking

goes man so I mean obviously yeah yeah that's good yeah you I was sharing with you before we began how uh back in the

Twitter days when you would post you would often talk about the porn industry and I think a lot of times we talk about

porn use like in a home in relationships with people da d da but we don't look at the bigger monster the bigger machine

that's actually fueling the addictions what did you learn in your studies about the porn industry well there's so much I

don't want to know but um I think of it this way Jackie 200 years ago where we are right

now slavery was legal people traded in human beings MH now we look back on those days here

we are Christians we look back on those days and we see three human profiles in that historical situation we see

abolitionists mhm we see liberators and we're so proud of them they stood up they stuck their neck out they paid a

price and they did the right thing and and and we just were moved by them secondly and and many of them were

Christians secondly we see passive onlookers you know they just kind of shrug their shoulders hey these things

happen it's not really right but what can you do you know and what would the economy be without it anyway so they

just kind of make peace with it and we grieve over those people we wonder what were you

thinking how could you any third human profile slaveholders slave Traders some of whom

claim to be Christians and we look at them we're indignant we are offended we are

grieved how could you do that especially how could you do that and have the name of Christ on your lips so here are these

we see liberators passive onlookers active traitors all right we've got the same

thing going on today and where are we in that picture man you know we we don't want

future Generations looking back on us grieving over us where were you guys you you begin your book well it's

kind of broken into different categories where it's you are royalty speaking directly to men she is royalty royalty

speaking about women and many of the women who are in a part of these films and then he is royalty speaking about

Christ I'm intrigued by the order because as I Shar with you and Shar with Preston

I feel like I can assume that people would think that a book of confronting pornography use and stuff like that

would start with sin would start with Genesis 3 was not Genesis 1 and two that you're made in the image of God and so

what is there a strategy you had with saying no let me affirm the fact that you have dignity as a man as a means of

ministering to them about pornography well in a way but really the gospel demands that we start with human Glory

the story does not begin in Genesis 3 and human sin it starts in Genesis 1 and human

dignity this is a big deal to me um if I'm just a a piece of trash now God loves me but still I'm

just a piece of trash why should I even care why not do the uh the most disgusting creepy things ever and if

everybody else is just trash yeah why does anything matter but what if God created us in His image and what

that means is it means we're royalty the king of the

universe put us human beings on this planet to represent him it's like when when there's a king who wants to remind

the people in all the parts of his Empire of who he is and his presence and his care for them but he can't get

around all those places all the time some places he doesn't Vis visit very often so what does he do he has a statue

of himself put up right in the center of town so everybody can be reminded he's there he's got

this we are images of God to declare

that the king is present so he made us royalty in this his world to spread his kingdom we have

every right to Stand Tall yeah and to have a sense of stature and dignity and worth and

identity that's high and holy and and and that's true of every human being what happens when we become uh converted

to Christ is that dignity starts to be reformed and become clear and glorious and

eternal so and it's true of of everybody in the porn industry every precious girl or

woman who's been put there she's been lied to she's been t holds she is something

that she isn't she's never been told I'm willing to bet never been told how glorious really glorious she is maybe

she's been flattered I don't know lied to who has told her you are you have something of the glory of God upon you

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ordinary yeah well one of the things that you know it seems like you Tred to do very obvious

in this book is to not only like let people know how how much royalty we are but youve also held men accountable to

the degrading of of of women right and if I'm just honest when I was struggling with porn I just thought about a need

being being met or my lust being you know catered to or uh insecurity even you know it's it's so self gra

glorifying or whatever but I don't I I don't I I didn't think about how self selfish that act was you know uh I often

thought thought about how selfish the the sin of molesting someone is I've I've often thought about that and even

self-righteously in such a way like how can you do that but at the same time I think Jackie read me a line this morning

that really made me think about like how much we're supporting the degrading and the abuse

of women around the world when we watch porn I guess I have two questions why do you think most men who

engage even women who engage in pornography don't realize that's what they're

watching and why did you feel the need to highlight or to hold people accountable

to you're doing this is this is what you're actually doing you're joining Satan you're your your XYZ Satan does

not want anybody to know what's really going on his his kingdom will fall if the word

gets out yeah that this is really a system of Oppression so if he doesn't put out a

sign slave market human beings for sale to the highest bitter he makes it look like fun mhm and

if the actors don't act like they're having fun they're going to be punished all the

more so I really really want everybody to that's why Genesis 1 and two matters so

much God comes he interrupts yeah he comes he just walks right in and he says we're going to

change the subject you've got to know that you and everybody on the face of the

Earth has stature in my eyes MH and who we really are is not who we think we are who we really are is who God says we are

yeah God says we have stature in his eyes that that precious girl on the porn site is dear to the heart of God and he

is angry at how she's being mistreated MH it forces the issue whose side am I on mhm yeah I got to face that can can I

read this quote it says Satan hates women it was a woman

remember who brought Jesus into this world dooming Satan's evil Kingdom forever Satan cannot get his hands on

the Risen Jesus but he sure can torment women and he does porn is Satan yes Satan assaulting women denying their

Glory dragging them down because they remind him every day of the true king he hates and

fears I could hear somebody listening to this conversation and saying that is dramatic porn is Satan it's just you

know she consented to be a part of that like sex is God gave us sex sex is good like it's it's not that deep why is

everything demonic then I would say then why believe the gospel at all if porn succeeds and if if we allow

porn to succeed we are saying I don't believe the gospel at all if we say we believe the gospel we

are taking sides against porn we're taking sides for human sexuality porn isn't about

sex it's about power Satan it's not like God is squeamish and embarrassed by sex and he

doesn't really feel comfortable with the fact that we have bodies and and and hormones and so forth but Satan oh he

just loves that no sex May him sick to his stomach it was through human sexuality

through human bodies that his Archen enemy came into this world through a woman he came out

of her womb God designed human sexuality for his glory he loves our

sexuality he cherishes and values our sexual uality he doesn't look at our bodies and

and and roll his eyes the greatest thing about the

Christian Gospel or this I I should say perhaps the punchline of the Christian Gospel is the resurrection of the

body the stoic philosophers in Paul's day they didn't believe that what they said here's our problem we have these

icky bodies all these you know Elemental basic Primal needs needs and desires but we then we also have Minds we have

spirits and these bodies we have in common with the animals our spirits and our intellects

and our minds we have in common with the gods so salvation is stop pandering to your body and

develop your mind and your spirit now that was that was what the stoic said Paul comes along the Apostle Paul he

says 1 Corinthians 6 the Lord is for the body MH and the body is for the

Lord Our Savior above has a pro body policy in his [Music]

kingdom I was speaking a tongue if I could well I can but I'm choosing so when we yield our bodies to him we don't

lose them that's good that's really good we we we get our bodies back forever I mean

Preston I cannot wait to see you in glory man oh man that's sound like Ray ortland we we we going we gonna have

some fun brother so so what you're saying is God is for the body God is for

sexuality and therefore pornography is not the affirmation of sexuality or the dignifying of the body but rather like

Satan lowkey trying to like destroy what God made for beauty human sexuality is like a mansion a gorgeous

Mansion porn Burns It To The Ground don't tell me porn is pro sex sex positive what a lie it is a lie yeah

yeah that that's that's good I I I would love for you to speak to the

lies that men have believed about themselves that has drove them into porn because it

my just talking about myself you know I think I've said this on the podcast but for me it was bigger than

lust one of the things that the Lord had to reveal to me was I came from a lineage of

men who found their identity and how much women wanted them and

what people did not prepare me for not blaming my sin on other people what people did not prepare me for was me

getting married and my wife saying no I don't want to have sex tonight and how low that made me felt and so even though

I was still in Christ I still very much had my uncle's ideology in my mind that no if you're a real man a woman doesn't

tell you no and so pouring from me you know was it was lust but it was more so me living vicariously through men who

wasn't being told no right it was in a lot of ways it was about power I didn't realize it was but it was about power it

was it was it was it was it was my power and my my my ego feeling wound wounded when I was rejected in my marriage and

so what like in your in your um experience of pastoring throughout the years what are some lies what are the

lies you think that men believe about themselves uh that drives them to watch porn because I'm I'm assuming that it's

it's it can be a myriad of topics right what do you what do you think some of those things are well the first thing I

want to say is is that I'm a sexual sinner Ray ortland yeah okay I love my wife I don't have a a girlfriend on the

side and I'm not looking at porn and I am a sexual sinner yeah everything about me is not what it should

be and if I really wish that that that good and evil in this world were color-coded then

we could really tell it would be obvious uh uh like if if good was this beautiful green like spring green and and evil was

like yellow police tape that would really help yeah but we got have have to read the Bible and figure things out yes

yeah but if evil were like yellow like police tape at a crime scene I would be glowing yellow all the time like even

right now not because I intend it it's just it's just flowing out of me and that includes my

sexuality and what I've noticed when my mind goes into a bad place it's because I'm not

thinking most of the evil that's done in the world is not by people who want to do evil it's by people who aren't

thinking wow and that's me so the only way

that what has helped me through the years being married to jany is to realize and this took a long time for me

to begin to understand I'm embarrassed at how long it took me she's so kind and forgiving but I'm not okay with

this I began to realize as the years went by oh there's a reason I have these

crazy intense feelings there's a reason this is surging through me and the reason is not me

it's for her God created me and he's not looking back wishing he hadn't done it this way

God created me with his testosterone and so forth for

jany and I it's it's I can serve her with my sexuality and if she doesn't feel like

it at any particular time that's okay if this is servanthood that's fine there'll come another

time and uh my sexual intensity is not for me I did not know this for so long it is for her that's a game changer that

was for me so if the Reason God gave me this this this crazy intensity and this also the the Euphoria of making

love if the the TD I want to score is her happiness her fulfillment her pleasure her feeling loved okay now I

finally know what to do with my sexuality [Music]

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started on your future goals which TR say wow that that seems like it would be so counterintuitive and countercultural

yeah it cuz I think we've been discipled into believing that sexual like sexual expression is primarily self-centered

self self-oriented and so yeah I mean you have people in your mind how would they respond to what he just

said man that's a really good question babe I think for me you know granted I grew up with men who were not

Christian right right clearly I grew up with men who who were womanizers pimps players these type of type of men and I

think think I think that sounds foreign to this culture because you know I think

this this our society tells us to do what makes you feel yeah right and the gospel is so opposite it is love God

with all your heart mind soul body and strength and love your neighbor as yourself it doesn't talk about loving us

right uh you know well it does talk about loving ourselves but like loving others as yourself like and so like I

think men would think that's crazy honestly like that's nuts like you're telling me that my body was created like

but I think that like no when you think about the like when you think about God and how he laid his life down for us and

how he wants us to serve one another and how a marriage actually would be way more healthy if we had

that that mindset that I'm coming thinking about loving you with my

body and in doing so I am pleasured right but it's not I'm not seeking my pleasure and so how much how how many

how many on a very practical level how many arguments will be eliminated H how much tension in a marriage will be

eliminated that's great Point how much how much how much frustration will be eliminated when your wife tells you no

and you're doing it for her that's good but if you're doing it for yourself and she tells you no you immediately feel

offended because it's not about her that's interesting right and so like I think God not only it's not even not

only in in in that ideology not even just thinking about the bodies but also just thinking about our holistic

relationship yeah like the whole like the holistic health of our relationship I think hinges on serving one another

more than we serve ourselves that's really good and if we do that how healthy a relationship would be you know

you know when you said a moment ago Preston that some people would listen to us talking about this and say you're

crazy yeah that's actually wonderful because when people start

saying to us you are crazy to believe that you're crazy to live that way they're actually starting to see

Christianity yeah yeah I mean you have to go through literally go through a religious conversion yeah to enter into

this you have to be born again talking about Miracle a natural man doesn't understand spiritual things for they are

spiritually discerned right and so it is it is crazy to think when society and your uncles and your father whatever

whoever has told you no you do get as many many women as you want um this this idea know that I'm I'm

only coming into this sexual relationship this marriage to to meet the needs of someone else um yeah so

what we're not talking about is on a scale of 1 to 10 um neglecting how you can uh upgrade

your life by coming to Jesus yeah and if you're at a four or a six wherever you are on that scale of 1 to 10 uh Jesus

can take the you that you wanted to be anyway and make that you even better make that you more what you wanted

anyhow we're not talking about that we're talking about take the scale away how would you like to be a walking

miracle forever that's what Jesus said to Nicodemus 20 in John 3 you must be born

again yeah that's good I wanted to say something earlier you said and I just want to clear it up because I think

people might have misheard you when you talked about uh Jesus coming through the the sexual relationship of you wasn't

you wasn't denied the Virgin birth oh preson thank you so abely he wasn't Ray Ray wasn't denying the Virgin birth he

wasn't saying that Mar Mary had sex with someone and Jesus came into the world man and a woman had sex for Mary

to come into the world Jud to be here somebody had to but he came through a woman's body he came through a woman's

body that's that's the point that she was trying to I knew what you were trying to say but I know how people can

hear things on this podcast and run with it yeah thank you so much pres yeah I mean you kind of helped with the ESV

Bible so sure he would be the yeah wrote some of the ESV Bible he knows his Bible but again I'm thinking of people who are

frustrated with their wives frustrated with Even in our situation the lack of consistent sexual stuff cuz I I think if

we are transparent I think me the Lord put two very sexually broken people together when put me in pressing

together because you have a man who was introduced to sex very early found identity in it um you felt valued

wanted desired through sexual intercourse yeah you married a woman who was sexually abused and was not

physically touched in Intimate Ways by male figures only abused by male figures you put both of those people in the

marriage God funny like that Ain where sexual intimacy communicates control and abuse not love and for you it

communicates you get what I'm saying and so in that with that tension I think you have a lot of couples like that and they

cannot say it out loud it's just your body belongs to your spouse so do it and I think there are some women who they

might emotionally withdraw to deal with the stuff and there are some men that might go to porn which is also is

emotional withdrawal to deal with the stuff I'm thinking about them yeah and I'm like what do we how did the Lord

guide you to to have the conversations such that you discovered

each other and how to serve and help and love each other how did that look what did that look like for look at Ray being

an interviewer it's still happening Ray yeah I don't know yeah I I feel like with us um just honesty just being just

really honest and transparent with one another um you know and also too I think when me and

Jackie got married I didn't know how to take rejection and because of her abuse she

didn't know how to fully receive a man even wanting her that way without feeling like you want

something you want something not me because when someone takes away takes takes something from you and abuse you

want to like I had to realize that my wife needs to feel like she has autonomy to choose when somebody took away that

privilege right and so for me I think we had a breakthrough in our marriage and we're still working through

a lot when I realized that my wife is rejecting it she's not rejecting

me when I realized that because you know it was more than just the act it was like do you love me but I think if you

grew up in a society and I think that's what a lot of men do when they watch porn they grew up in a society that

says a woman should want you right a woman should vow you should be desirable and so I think a lot of men

watch porn because they can vicariously live through men not being rejected right and so I had to just realize no no

no no no she's a she's a whole she's a like a holistic person with a whole bunch of you know baggage but also just

like she's more than just her you know this that that that that I want to please me right and so like I think I

had to just realize that and when I was when I was able to realized that I think I was able to love her better yeah um

and be more patient with her and I think that patient helped has helped us tremendously um and then a lot of other

stuff I mean yeah I I think I am I don't feel like being emotional but I am most secure

it's okay babe didn't think I would cry but I think I feel most

secure when I feel loved just because like I think when it feels like I'm only wanted to give you

something that's hurtful but it's like no if you say no I love you if you say yes I love you if you say not yet I love

you if you say tomorrow I love like I think when that it when there was a consistent pattern of me just being

loved yeah that changed everything yeah and it convicted me uh you don't make me emotional bad it convicted me

because I realized Rihanna can you give me a tissue I realized what she wanted from me was exactly how the way the way

the lord loves me you know um and and I think we were just talking about this I'll wait till

she gets the tissue thank you we we were just talking about how we can serve our friends in this season like how she can

serve her friends and how she was encouraging me how I can I can serve a particular friend and I was telling her

this particular friend makes me feel away when when they don't want to do this

when they don't want to do that and she was just like you have to go in this friendship not thinking about what they

do how how it affects you but how can you serve them you know and I think when she said that I I remember early on in

our married marriage some years back having to learn it in our marriage that like I did not know what

Christlike servant Hood was I I took I loved her I you know and I still love her loved her deeply but I

just didn't know how to deal with the hurt and pain that her rejection brought to me

because the rejection felt like you didn't you didn't want me I didn't feel dis desable I didn't feel loved but she

did want me she just didn't want the act because she didn't feel desired she didn't feel loved um so I think when I

learned that like no like if she says no she just means yeah and now the no is layered it's not nah it's like yeah you

know today was a difficult day but can we watch a movie can are there other avenues of intimacy that might even open

me up to a yes wow wow yeah every one of us married someone who has suffered

deeply that's a great part of the privilege of marriage

H God entrusted to me this precious woman jany who had

suffered I didn't even realize that going in I had no idea yeah and as the mag magnitude of it

broke upon me I began to realize what a profound injury that

is I started to feel honored that God would she is so

precious to God that God would entrust to me his precious daughter who has

suffered deeply yeah that's a privilege it is oh man all

righty go ahead you I I I thought you had a question no I'm overwhelmed now she's overwhelmed well man uh I have so

many questions um in your in your in your experience of pastoring like when did you when did you

realize that you had to write this book for the men you were pastoring like when did you say enough is enough I have to

write this book two parts of the answer one when I got angry

enough I hate it when precious human beings are mistreated treated like trash yeah

secondly I love Revival and here's the Next Great Awakening I want to see it's not some

nicey nice Church down the street it's already doing pretty well and it becomes even more nicey nice if that's the next

Revival I'm not interested what if 10 years from

now some of the greatest voices for the gospel in the world are people who came who were converted out of the porn

industry what if the Risen Jesus visits that dark and deep place with his Saving Grace and his loving touch and his Mercy

his restoration what if some of the best storytellers for the gospel 10 years from now are are

videographers from inside the porn industry what if what if some of the biggest um donors uh to gospel causes 10

years from now are former investors in porn sites and so forth if that's the Next Great Awakening sign me up amen wow

I want to see the Risen Jesus visit that dark place well let me ask you this

okay you've passed for 45 years and I'm pretty sure you've seen countless cases of men even women

struggle struggling with this thing how does a pastor address this in their congregation like

publicly and also privately in meetings when porn is such a secret sin it's not a sin

that's so open and you know in your facei so it's not even a same that people confess as much as they confess

jealousy or Pride or you know anger there's you know there's a reason why shame kicks in so big it's just

screaming at us after we sin sexually it's precisely because our sexuality is so sacred H it's not because our

sexuality is trashy but it's So Glorious with the glory of God wow and it's so personal I

mean this is not just a body function we're more than we in our generation realize our sexuality is very it's it's

way down de it's a profound part of us and when we injure and trash that deep place

within we immediately flip into the most profound anguish and shame it's it's an indicator of the actual

stature and Glory of human sexuality so I don't know what else to do as a pastor except create a culture

in a church where people can be honest wow and they can come clean on what's not going well how they're and how

they're really doing and we can live in honesty together that's good and nobody is we're not polishing we're not we

don't come to church to polish our righteousness we come to church to open up about our Brokenness that's good that

you said that cu honestly think that a church is always going to be the reflection of their leadership and the

fact that you said creating a culture of honesty because I think that if our if our leaders are honest about it the

congregation will too that's good the Christians I respect and Trust the most are the ones who I know I have some

actual insight into how they're really doing yeah and it's one of the reasons I love you Preston you're not you're not

posing that's good yeah yeah I feel like I could tell you anything I I I tell you everything

too I just text you a very intimate text last week and so yeah I feel the same way about you yeah thank you You'

been a great great mentor in my life Pastor Ray Ray Orland thank you I'm so excited to spend some time with you this

fall um if you haven't gotten this book especially men out there talked about this book I've actually referred this

book on the podcast we'll have it in the show notes we'll have it in the show notes but uh get death the death of porn

by Ray Orland it's a great book great read I think it can help you and like we said in the last episode generations to

come you being set free from porn you know this time we've just shared together we've shared with many other

people and I think what's happening right now is there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people who

love you more m right now than they did an hour ago because you gave all of us the

privilege of being close to you yeah thank you thank you thank you I definitely feel

that way peace out y'all all right bye love you Ray