Understanding Purgatory: Biblical Arguments For and Against

[Music] welcome back to shim poy I'm Joe hesm so I'm going to actually interrupt the

five-week series I'm doing on answering atheism because it's that time of year when people have a lot of questions

about purgatory I'm recording this a little before Halloween it's going to come out on All Souls day which is also

Day of the Dead and because because of the Season uh a lot of people have questions about what Catholics believe

about purgatory and why oh and by the way October 31st is also Reformation day uh commemorating in October 31st 1517

when Martin Luther posted his 95 thesis which had to do a lot with Purgatory ironically if you go back and read the

95 thesis Luther believes in purgatory and actually condemns within antha only one group those who would deny Purgatory

so it's kind of fascinating the kind of forefather of protestantism uh dams those who believe what most Protestants

believe namely that there's no Purgatory that could be a subject of another video I want to look at something a little

simpler is Purgatory biblical or is this just something the Catholic Church made up I'm going to look at four biblical

Arguments for purgatory and then I'm going to look at four arguments against Purgatory the four arguments I'm going

to look for in ter of being for Purgatory first nothing impure enters Heaven second uh the concept of praying

for the dead and that being a Biblical practice third saved as Through Fire and fourth what we might call purgatory's

First fruits then I'm going to turn to look at four arguments against Purgatory the thief on the cross this line often

accredited to St Paul that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord third the objection you know didn't

Christ do at all hasn't he purified us why would we need something like purgatory and fourth uh the fact that

the Bible could be clearer on the subject so before I dive into the arguments for I want to give just a

brief word on the question what is purgatory because for many of you watching this you may be a little vague

on what do we even mean when Catholics say Purgatory are we saying some people go to heaven some go to hell and some go

to like a third place well no not really uh the catechism of theath Church explains that all who die in God's grace

and friendship but still imperfectly purified are indeed assured of their Eternal salvation so this is the first

thing to make clear Purgatory is not some Second Chance where you were going to go to hell but then you get a mull

again and get to like try again no Purgatory is only for those who are saved it's only for those who are going

to heaven but after death they undergo purification so

as to achieve the Holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven so these are people who are saved but imperfectly

purified we'll explain kind of what that means as we go but it's people who are saved but still are living in sin or

attached to sin in some way not in such a way that they're totally cut off from God but in such a way that they cannot

say they're without sin and then the next paragraph of the the catechism explains the church gives

the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect so notice again only the elect go to Purgatory

does not mean everyone who's saved goes to Purgatory it means everyone who's in purgatory is saved and notably they're

saved by Jesus Christ they're not saved by their own effort so I'm hoping that's clear because that is going to respond

to some of the misunderstandings and criticis isms I've seen of purgatory which imagine it either as a A doover or

a place for us to save ourselves rather than being saved by Christ that's total misconceptions in both cases so with

that said let's look at four Arguments for Purgatory first that nothing impure enters Heaven this is the simplest

argument and let's just go right there in my view it's the strongest the first thing to establish is that we sin and

that should be immediately obvious if you know if you have any like self-a awareness at all

but in 1 John we're told if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us whether you are elect

or not you still sin the just man falls seven times Proverbs says so that's a problem why is that a problem well

besides the obvious reasons that sin is an offense against God we're also told in the Book of Revelation 21: 27 that

nothing unclean shall enter Heaven so nothing nothing impure nothing unclean is in heaven and yet we despite belief

in Christ still sin now I'm going to give what I'm calling the aen frad argument and the

reason is I got it from Matt Fred who got it from Jimmy Ain and I don't actually know if the wording is

originally Jimm's or Matt's so Akin Fred that's what I'm going with and it's just a way of putting this argument really

simply the first premise there will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in heaven right like you're not going to be

lusting or stealing or murdering or doing anything like that in heaven you're not even going to be wanting to

do those things premise to we at least most of us are still sinning and are attached to sin at the end of this

life that we have not been perfectly purified in this life because if we had been we wouldn't still sin and yet we

find ourselves still sinning thus we get to the conclusion therefore there must be a period between

death and Heavenly glory in which the saved are cleansed of sin and their attachment to sin right like if you're

dirty and you have to be clean to go into heaven some cleansing some purification some

purgation has to happen now I've seen some Protestant answers to this argument where they say well it'll happen in the

twinkling of an eye okay fine maybe you believe in a very fast Purgatory maybe you believe in a really painless P

Purgatory but you still believe in some kind of purgatory there has to be some kind of purification that has to happen

after death for the person to go into heaven and then we're no longer arguing about purgatory we're arguing about the

just the nature and the details about purgatory but we both agree some kind of purgative process after death has to

exist now you will find some Protestants who say no it's not really sin if you elect you know basically just

denying that they still sin because they're saved D John says that's self-deception I

don't think I can do better than that and I think that's a pretty minority view even among Protestants so I would

start here the question is not uh can you go to heaven unclean the question is how do you get clean if you

die imperfectly purified Purgatory is I think a pretty clear answer to that question now the details of purgatory

are still unclear because look the details of the nature of time in the afterlife we still unclear I mentioned

this in another video but we want to uh put our concept of time onto the Saints in heaven and I think that's a mistake

and so maybe Purgatory is extremely fast from our perspective or extremely slow from our perspective and our perspective

is just going to be different than God's perspective and different than the perspective of the Saints who are going

through purgatory and the Saints in heaven because we process ESS time through our bodies and the Saints and

purgatorian in heaven with the exception of Mary who's assumed bodily into heaven the Saints

don't have bod so their experience of time is going to be radically different than our own so I think a lot of the

debates about whether Purgatory is fast or slow risk missing the point by applying a kind of a human standard of

time to the question either way once we're debating whether Purgatory is fast or slow we're no longer debating does

Purgatory exist and that's I'm trying to show here Purgatory of some kind necessarily exists if anyone is going to

be saved other than the perhaps very few people who are totally sin-free and detached from all sin by the time they

die the second argument that praying for the dead establishes the existence of purgatory and praying for the dead is

biblical so let's address this in two parts first why would praying for the dead establish the ex is the Purgatory

St Thomas aquinus in the Suma this is actually the very last question in the Suma he points out that there's no need

to pray for the Dead who are in heaven and there's no use praying for the Dead who are in hell right you the Saints in

heaven don't need your help and the Saints in hell can't use your help excuse me the souls in hell can't use

your your help so if someone has died and gone to hell it's too late remember Purgatory is not a doover for those

who've rejected Jesus Christ and the Saints in heaven don't need any special assistance because they're

they're experiencing unfathomable infinite Glory so if we're praying for the dead

necessarily we're believing in some kind of third category of those who are imperfectly purified who can actually

benefit from our prayers hopefully that's really clear I think experientially most people know

this Protestants typically do not pray for the dead because they don't believe in anything like Purgatory Catholics and

Orthodox as we're going to see uh traditional Jews also pray for the dead because we do believe in some kind of

purgative state we all three groups have different ideas of maybe what that looks like but again the details aren't what

I'm worried about here just the existence of purgatory so where do we see the

biblical evidence for praying for the dead well there's one argument that I thought was

bad for a while until I I dove a little deeper on it and that's St Paul uh talking about

onerous and he speaks about him as if he's praying for him having died so in 2 Timothy 4: 19 he says greet P Prisa

Prisha and Aquilla and the household of onerous so he's not greeting onerous he's he's greeting his family now that

by itself is is pretty weak and for a while I thought that was all the argument was like okay well he's

greeting the the household of the guy he's like no no no go back to second Timothy chap 1 and you realize this is

actually a pretty convincing argument he speaks of the guy in past tense he says may the Lord grant Mercy to the

household of on aerus again he's praying for the Lord's Mercy for the guy's family for he often refreshed me he was

not ashamed of my chains but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me and then he says

may the Lord grant him to find Mercy from the Lord on that day then he says' and you well know all the

service he rendered at Ephesus so notice he in the middle of describing the past Deeds that this guy did he has a prayer

that he'll find Mercy from God on Judgment Day that's the day of which Paul speaks we're going to get back to

the day and its importance in in Paul's kind of depiction of of our purification and all this but there's always this

relationship between our purification and Judgment day that we are being purified so that we can stand perfectly

pure for Judgment Day and here he is praying for this man for that and it looks like he's this would

be a very strange passage to write about someone living that's all I would say you know you could you hypothetically

sure but I'd be hardpressed to find anywhere where Paul or or really anybody else talks in this way about someone

who's you know walking the Earth so that's new in the Old Testament there's a much

clearer passage that unfortunately isn't in many Protestant Bibles before I get into it I just want to say a word on

this second mbes to deny it you would have to say both that it's not canonical it's not divinely inspired and that what

it's teaching is actually wrong and that's a really uphill battle it's one thing to say you don't think it belongs

in the Bible it's another thing to say you think it doesn't belong in the Bible and it's not inspired by God it's a

third thing to say you don't think it belongs in the Bible it's not inspired by God and it's teaching false Doctrine

and that's going to be a really hard position to hold in light of a wealth of biblical and early Christian evidence

we'll get into all that but first what is second mccabes have to say so to set the stage Judas macabus and his men are

fighting for the freedom of Israel and in chapter 12 beginning in verse 39 there's a description of the aftermath

of a ATT and Judas and his men they find a number of their fellow comrades have died in battle and in each case they

have these amulets these sacred tokens of the idols of Jamia which the law forbids the Jews to wear and so we're

told it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen so these are men who are in this very strange

spiritual state where on the one hand they believe in God and are fighting for the freedom of Israel on the other hand

they've fallen into Superstition and are wearing these superstitious idolatrous kind of medals while I want

to make very clear they're fighting against the Greeks for making them compromise their Judaism so they're in

this strange position maybe like many of us where on the one hand we're fervently PR God but on the other hand we have

these strange compromises with evil that's the situation these men find themselves in and so what happens so

Judas and the men bless the ways of the Lord who reveals the things that are hidden and then they start praying for

them beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out right like they don't know are these

guys going to go to hell are they going to go to heaven who knows let's pray for them let's pray for the purgation of

their sin that it'll be wholly blotted out that's what they're praying for explicitly in

12:41 and then uh Judas macabus tells the people to keep themselves free from sin because they just you know lesson

learned and then he takes up a collection uh to make a a sin offering and so so far we just have okay

here's what the leader did and you can say well sure plenty of leaders of Israel did imperfect things to say the

least but the text goes on to say in doing this he acted very well and honorably taking account of the

Resurrection for if he were not expecting that those who'd Fallen would rise again it would have been

Superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead right like if there isn't a judgment day if there isn't a final

Resurrection ction if this isn't all going to come to something then you're wasting your time praying for the

dead but in verse 45 if he was looking to The Splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness

was a holy and Pious thought therefore he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin so

that's about as clear as you're going to get he prayed for the dead here's why he prayed for the dead here's what he's

doing spiritually for those who have already died to help them with their purgation their

purification so then the question is just well can we trust second mccabes and here I would just point out

a couple things first the New Testament trusts second mccabes here's what I mean in Hebrews 11 there is this list uh kind

of Hall of Fame of saints those who live by faith and and receive Divine approval so Hebrews 1:2 kind of lays out what the

whole chapter is about jumped down towards almost the very end verse 35 says women received their dead by

Resurrection some were tortured refusing to accept release that they might rise again to a better life now in the

preceding 34 verses as far as I can tell every example is from the Bible and then you get to verse 35 and if you're a

Protestant you might be saying I don't know what this passage is talking about well as Scholars point out that's

because it seems to allude to a couple of passages in second macbes and that we can track the language so there's a

debate about actually which of two different passages in second mccabes is most directly in view between Scholars

but the the idea that second macbes is what's behind Hebrews 11 is pretty widely held and Hebrews 11 is not alone

in John chapter 10 St John says it was the Feast of the dedication at Jerusalem it was Winter and Jesus was walking in

the temple so Jesus is in the temple for the Feast of dedication a wintertime Jewish feast what Feast is that well

that's the Feast of Hanukkah and strikingly if you read like the Jewish talet it describes this as like a

festival of lights and all of this the idea of it being the Feast of the dedication of the temple is pretty

explicitly from first and second mccabes and that's the only Old Testament passages that speak of Hanukkah because

the older books were written before the feast was established because the dedication is a dedication by the mbans

after they uh retake the temple from the Greeks so Jesus is seemingly celebrating this

and that seems like pretty good um authentication of what sakab is talking about so remember like if you're going

to deny SE mabes it's not enough to say SE mabes isn't Canon the question here is not is SE mbes in the Bible or not

the question here is a much easier one is second mccabes telling the truth or not and it seems like we can point to

John Jesus in Hebrews 11 in support of the fact that second macbes was treated as authoritative as true at least and

seemingly in Hebrews 11 treated as scripture based on the way every other passage was was something from

scripture we also know the early Christians regularly referred to the books of mccabes and I mean very early

Christians so origin is a good example in Dave prip PES he says that we may believe in the authority of Holy

Scripture that such is the case hereo in the book of macbes dot dot dot so he's explicitly citing to these books uh in

this case second mabes as Holy Scripture you'll sometimes hear people say oh the early Christians used the books but they

didn't consider them scripture well first even if that were true that would still be enough like if they thought

they were reliable and these books are teaching something about how it's good to pray for the dead okay great that's

very good authority but it's also not true like the early Christians quoted these books a lot because they believed

them to be scripture and they regularly said as much so you've got I think a fair case

that second mccabes is true and if second mabes is true then certainly praying for the dead in

purgatory very good you can also approach this from a Jewish perspective because there are a

number of Jewish prayers for the dead so Judas macabus was neither the first nor the last Pious Jew to pray for the dead

Ellen LaVine talks about this in What's called the mourner kadish uh in her essay Jewish views and Customs on death

so the MERS kadish when someone dies you pray for them and the custom if it's your parent who dies is to pray for them

for their soul for 11 months and the reason she explains is that it was thought that it at least a year of

purification was needed for the particularly Wicked and so if you pray for them for 12 months or more then that

suggest that you think your parents really need prayers to get out of this purification now again we don't have to

debate the details exactly what this purification looks like or how long anything like that the simple fact is

the mourner's kadish is proof of a Jewish belief in purgatory even if it's not usually called Purgatory by Jewish

believers and that's just one example there's also a prayer called the El

malim which is means god full of compassion and apologies if I'm butchering the pronunciation there

Ronald Eisenberg in my Jewish learning talks about this how this is one of the prayers for the Departed that's recited

with a chant at funeral services as well as when you visit the graves of the Dead uh particularly dead relatives and he

explains what it is it's a plea that the soul of the departed be granted proper rest since the mere fact that a soul is

in Gan anden Paradise does not guarantee it complete contentment now that's going to be really important that paradise was

not viewed in the Jewish mind as synonymous with perfect happiness with God in

heaven and so even the soul in Paradise might be still in Need for prayers for proper rest you'll see why that's

relevant when we get to the good thief because there's often a conflation between paradise and

heaven so that's the second kind of Jewish Source the third one is from the Jewish encyclopedia Rabbi Kaufman ker uh

he gives a a pretty lengthy kind of explanation for the history of the Jewish belief in purgatory and he says

it's clearly expressed in some rabinal passages is in the teaching of the shemites that's the followers of the

House of shamai which in he quotes one of them and the last judgment day there shall be three classes of Souls the

righteous shall at once be written down for the life Everlasting the wicked for gehenna and

then this third category those who he says whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down

to gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified so again like then the image of this where they're kind of

in a hell-like state for a while we can cribble but there's clearly a belief in a

purification fiery State and the text goes on to say for of them it is written and then there's a reference to

Zechariah 13 now I want to actually explore Zechariah 13 so we'll pause on that one and then the second passage

that's given is 1st Samuel 2 chapter 6 that he the Lord bringeth down to shaol and bringeth up again so this notion of

like a purification of something hell likee that's only temporary for this class of people who are not the

eternally damned there finding this based on scripture this is going to be really important for people claiming the

Catholic church just like made this up you know because it's one thing to say oh they indoctrinated all the Catholics

but are you going to say that they indoctrinated the talet they indoctrinated all the rabbis they

indoctrinated the house of shamai they indoctrinated Judas macabus before the Catholic Church even existed how does

this work exactly but yeah let's turn to Zechariah 13 because it's an interesting passage and I'd never really seen this

one used in in discussions on Purgatory but in Zechariah 13 and ver verse 8 the Lord promises that in the whole land

twoth third shall be cut off and perish and onethird shall be Left Alive now that's

ominous and then of that saved third verse 9 says and I'll put this third Into the Fire and refine them as one

refin silver test them as gold is tested they will call my name and I will answer them I will say they are my people and

they will say the Lord is my God now this is a really important passage to take seriously because this is a

spiritual principle that we want to be very clear on that it is not the case that suffering is uniquely the province

of the wicked or the Damned right like this is a misconception when in the Gospel of John

uh when the disciples see the man born blind and then there's this question well was it because of his sin or his

parents s it's like neither for the glory of God likewise in Hebrews there's a discussion about how if you're a son

then you will expect to be disciplined that there's a category of suffering discipline that actually only applies to

those who are saved it only applies to those who are in right relationship with God so that's a very important thing to

get straight because it means that Purgatory is not a rejection of Christ saving action Purgatory is

only the result of Christ saving action like right like only because this 3D in Zechariah 13 are saved can they undergo

these fires it's not the fires of damnation it is clearly a group that is saved

now whether that passage refers to Purgatory or not it's at least striking that you've got a group of rabbis who

are saying that it does so I think that's really fascinating that leads in really

naturally to the third argument for Purgatory this notion of those who are saved as Through Fire because think

about the back backround here of Zechariah 13 now look at what St Paul has to say in 1 Corinthians 3 he says

he's like a master builder he lays a foundation and another Builds on it but there's no other Foundation you can lay

other than that of Jesus Christ so we're only talking here about Christians that's an important thing to get

straight in 1 Corinthians 3 and how do you build on the foundation of Jesus Christ well you might do it in good way

with gold and silver and precious stones or you might do it in a shoddy way with wood and hay and stubble and Paul says

each man's work will become manifest for the day will disclose it again what does the day refer to Judgment Day because it

will be revealed with fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done read this with its Jewish

background right like among the saved there's this purifying fire and so he says if the work which any man has built

on the foundation survives he will will receive a reward now that's not just a reward of

Salvation because this whole group is saved if any man's work is burned up he will suffer loss though he himself will

be saved but only as through fire so there's some category of Christians who have the foundation of Jesus Christ who

are not going to hell who are in fact saved who will still after death before Judgment Day suffer loss they will

suffer in in some way and they will be saved but only as through fire so there's a third I think solid

argument for Purgatory Paul doesn't go into great detail about exactly what this will look like but the notion of

purifying fire seems fairly clear the fourth argument I want to kind of draw this notion of the uh the sun

being disciplined from Hebrews out and talk what we might call purgatory's First fruits I want to actually consider

an argument against Purgatory here made by the Anglican in right now I love in writing a lot of things on Purgatory I

think he's just wrong he has a book called for all the saints and he says in fact Paul makes it

clear here and elsewhere 1 Corinthians 3 here that it's a present life that is meant to function as a Purgatory the

sufferings of the present time not of some postmortem state are the valley we have to pass through in order to reach

the Glorious future now there's no need to make this in either or as Christians we would say yes the

present life should be purgatorial meaning you should be ever more purified from your attachment to sin as you grow

in sanctity but some people are going to die before that process is

complete and so for them well they're either not going to go to heaven because they're not totally Pure or that

purification process that has already begun in this life has to continue after they've

died Wright says the present life is bad enough from time to time goodness knows that imagining gloom and doom after

death as well it's a little bit of a caricature first of all the present life is bad enough for some people but there

are other Christians who even though they believe in Christ even though they are saved still live in such a way that

they've harmed other people and never made those debts right so either you have just a an everlasting

Injustice or there's some kind of healing some kind of Remedy that Justice demands in some way now there are ways

of taking that that would be mistaken but it's at least too simplistic to say the present life is

bad enough from time to time because for some people it's certainly is they are experiencing a purgation here on Earth

and others seemingly are not and then uh Wright says the thing I think is the most interesting that he thinks he knows

why Dante's middle volume Purgatory is is the one people most easily relate to because he says the myth of purgatory is

an allegory a projection from the present onto the future this is why Purgatory appeals to the imagination it

is our story it is where we are now if we are Christians if we believe in the Risen Jesus is Lord if we are baptized

members of his body then we are passing right now through the sufferings which form the gateway to life now there's a

lot there that we can agree with as Catholic Christians in fact St Augustine makes

the better version of right's argument in city of God centuries earlier but he just doesn't make it an either or he

says temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only by others after death by others both now and then

but all of them before that last and strictest judgment that is right before Judgment

Day and he says but of those who suffer temporary punishments after death all are not doomed to those Everlasting

punishments which are to to follow that judgment for some as we've already said what is not remitted in this world is

remitted in the next that is they're not punished with the Eternal punishment of the world to come so that's an important

kind of concept to get straight that yes right is absolutely right that for this life we should be going through

Purgatory now St Augustine's just pointing out well some people don't and they do it later and some people

experience both that actually what whether you could have thought about it or not

undermines almost every Protestant argument against Purgatory you can't say for instance Purgatory is evil because

it denies you know the purification Christ wins for us on the cross and then say in the same breath and also we

undergo Purgatory in this life well if Purgatory in this life is consistent with Christ dying for us on the cross

Purgatory after this life before we enter Heaven is also consistent with Christ dying for us on the cross I hope

hope that's clear that the fact that we experience some purgatorial process in this life and this seems abundantly

clear from the New Testament as well as just from Christian Living that should be good grounds to

realize that there's not a strong objection to Purgatory Purgatory does seem consistent with all of the biblical

evidence and and that's certainly how the early Christians understood it now with that said let's turn from the

biblical Arguments for Purgatory to the biblical arguments against Purgatory because there are several you can expect

to hear if you say you believe in purgatory the first one is the good thief on the cross and the good thief on

the cross I think is one of the most misused kind of passages in scripture but this is one that I fell for as a kid

I was I believe I was homesick from church one day and because I couldn't go to a church I watched a Protestant TV uh

like worship service and the preacher was preaching against purgatory and he looked to this

passage and he he looked to Luke 23 in which the good thief says to Jesus Jesus Remember me when you come in your kingly

power and Jesus says to him truly I say to you today you'll be with me in paradise and the preacher was like aha

there's no Purgatory because he says today the thief's going to be with him in paradise and as a kid as you know

maybe 12 I thought oh that's pretty good it seems like the Catholic belief in purgatory is unfounded well later I

realized that the preacher was making two really big assumptions that I was also making as you know a kit first that

today meant the same thing to Jesus that it would mean here on Earth that today is you know Good Friday that on Good

Friday the thief is going to be with Jesus and Paradise and the second assumption is that paradise means Heaven

that the thief and Jesus are going up to heaven on Good Friday well what blew apart that was

discovering John 20 verse 17 in which Jesus on Easter Sunday says to Mary Magdalene do not

hold me for I have not yet ascended to the father boom it was like oh okay I guess Jesus and the good thief didn't go

directly from the cross to heaven and in fact this verse isn't alone St Paul says in Ephesians 4 that when we talk about

Christ ascending what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the Earth in other words

not just the descendant and Jesus coming down from heaven to become man but there's a further descent after Good

Friday or on Good Friday and which he goes down and you might be saying what in the world is Jesus doing going down

some Protestants believe usually the calvinist variety that he's going down to Hell to suffer punishment in some

way that's not what scripture says 1 Peter 3 says he goes to preach to the spirits in prison

so that's what Jesus is doing after he dies for sins once for all he goes and preaches this message of Liberation to

those who are prison now that uh already blows apart

you know the idea that Jesus and the good thief have gone to heaven but there are a few other passages that are

relevant as well remember that idea that today for us means the same thing as today for god well it doesn't second

Peter 3 is really clear with the Lord one day as as a thousand years and a thousand years or as one day remember I

said this earlier when we talk about purgatory the constant temptation is to impose our categories of time upon these

spiritual realities and that's a mistake the other mistake is assuming that the word Paradise automatically necessarily

means Heaven Theophilus uh in uh his letter to aoas

this is actually the letter it's in 181 the first time we see the the word Trinity

used he describe so he's quoting from the Greek version of Genesis and and it says so the word Paradise means Garden

or like a Walled Garden and he says the Lord God planted Paradise in Eden and that's what the Greek version of Genesis

says that Eden is the first reference to paradise and so he says the place Paradise was made in respect of beauty

intermediate between Earth and Heaven so Paradise was understood to be this place of blessedness this place of beauty this

place that is superior to Earth but was still inferior to heaven now to be clear I'm not saying Paradise always

necessarily means that you can use Paradise to refer to heaven but Paradise doesn't automatically mean that so the

state of the righteous so remember what Jesus dies on the cross and he goes and preaches this message of Liberation to

those spirits who are in prison well they're not in hell because these are the people he's

bringing with him to heaven but Jesus opens the Gates of Heaven and so it's important that we get

that right so it it is accurate I think to describe where Jesus and the good thief go even on Good Friday as Paradise

as long as you don't think they mean Heaven as long as you understand they mean the place of the righteous dead

sometimes called the bosom of Abraham based on the Gospel of Luke that place some's called the limbo

of the fathers this place of waiting it's like a wall the garden a place of comfort that is superior to Earth but

isn't equal to heaven so all of that's to say however you understand uh the passage you just can't use the good

thief to debunk the existence of purgatory one last point on the good thief it would be fine from a Catholic

perspective if the good thief immediately went to heaven because usually the argument is look the good

thief he just believes and even though he lived this life of crime and sin he believes he says he believes and

therefore he goes to heaven shouldn't he have gone to Purgatory I don't think the answer to that is yes remember as St

Augustine says you can have your Purgatory on this Earth this is a man who is suffering an

excruciating death of torture on the cross for his sins crying out in faith amidst to suffering and what's more

giving comfort and defending Jesus publicly on Good Friday he did more than most of us will ever hope to

do in a very short span of time so if you were to tell me that was his purgation that was his suffering I'm say

yeah that makes sense that's fine none of that disproves Purgatory the Catholic belief in purgatory is not every single

Saint goes to Purgatory so if you found someone who didn't go to Purgatory that we would not debunk the existence of

purgatory just like not everyone's been to Cincinnati that doesn't mean Cincinnati

doesn't exist no offense to people from Cincinnati it's just the first city that came to

mind I don't know how purgatorial Cincinnati is so that's the the first objection the good thief just doesn't

prove first because he doesn't seem to have gone to heaven with Jesus on Good Friday but second because even if he

did that would not disprove the existence of purgatory the second objection

this line accredited to St Paul that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and the answer here is

this is a misquotation it's a misquotation of the King James version of 2 Corinthians 5

ver8 in which St Paul says we are confident I say and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present

with the Lord but notice he's saying it'd be great to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord he does

not say everyone who is absent from the body is present with the Lord the problem here is partly that

we're using King James English and a lot of people using this get tripped up to use the rsvce you can use any number of

Modern English translations it might be clearer where the logical error is that one says we are of good courage

and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord but again if you say I would rather have Italian

food than Mexican food tonight I don't know why you'd say that but if you did that does not mean that everyone who's

not having Italian food is having Mexican food or vice versa it just means you'd prefer a to B that's all that's

all you're saying you're not saying everyone who's not in a is in b or everyone not in B is in a you're not

saying that at all so to say I would rather be in heaven than on Earth which who wouldn't agree with that doesn't

prove that heaven and Earth are the only two possibilities because of course they aren't it's possible to be absent from

the body and in hell so it's outrageous it is totally obviously wrong to use 2 Corinthians 5

to say the only two states are here in the body or in heaven what's going on here is partly that people are getting

tripped over king jimes English I think and partly they're taking verse eight completely out of context if you read

the context in first in second Corinthians excuse me chapter 5 it starts with St Paul talking about how if

the Earthly tent we live in meaning our Earthly unglorified body is destroyed we have a building from God a house not

made with hands Eternal in the heavens that is our glorified body here indeed we grown and long to put on our Heavenly

dwelling so that by putting it on we may not be found naked so as we're in our unglorified body with all its weaknesses

we look forward to that day where we will have our glorified body that's specifically what 2 Corinthians 5 is

talking about and then he says we know while we're at home in the body we're away from the Lord right like if you are

still in your unglorified body here on Earth you're necessarily not in heaven if you're having Italian food you're not

having Mexican food whatever right he then says we would rather be away from the body and at home with the

Lord so when he says that does that mean the body in heaven are the only two possibilities of course it doesn't

because again you've got hell and you have the existence we have in heaven before we get our glorified body because

in the very next two verses St Paul makes clear when we're going to get the glorified body he says we must all

appear before the Judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in

the body now notice he's not saying everyone not in the body automatically goes to heaven automatically gets good

things when he talks about receiving evil at this time of judgment he means one of two things when we appear before

the Judgment seat of Christ either like 1 Corinthians 3 he's talking about the saved receiving some kind of

loss this purgation before their final judgment or or and or he means those who lose everything and go to hell But

whichever of those he means he clearly is not saying everyone who is not in their Earthly body is fully experiencing

Heavenly glory in their Heavenly Body no this is clearly not what he's saying so that passage just doesn't mean what

people say it means and they're usually misquoting it when when they quote it likewise with Philippians chapter 1 uh

verse 21 to 23 he's St Paul says for to me to live as Christ and to die is gain if it is to be life In the Flesh

that means fruitful labor for me yet which I shall choose I cannot tell I'm hardpressed between the two my desire is

to depart and be with Christ for that is far better but notice he still doesn't say the only two possibilities are

Earthly life or Heavenly Glory because there's obviously the third category of Hell which both Catholics and

Protestants typically believe in so Paul's not intending to deny hell he's saying he would rather be in heaven than

on earth that is a pretty uncontroversial kind of claim and doesn't prove those are the only two

possible places for a soul to be that's the second objection the third one didn't Christ do it all and here I want

to turn to the argument made by Mike gendin when he's asked why he doesn't believe in purgatory and apologies in

advance for the weird music why is Purgatory a completely false idea because it denies the

sufficiency of our Lord Jesus Christ it is created by the Roman Catholic religion as an intermediate place where

people who die in God's grace but who have committed venial sins will go there and have their sins purged away so that

they can be prepared for heaven but it goes against the Bible because in 1 John 1:7 it says the blood of Jesus Christ

purifies us from all sin not most Sins Not many Sins Not some sins the blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin and then

we also see in Hebrews 13 when Jesus obtained purification for our sins he sat down at the right hand of the Father

in heaven when the high priest sits down the work is done okay so that's the argument and the first thing to notice

is that the argument doesn't make a lot of sense and I mean that because of the thing I said earlier with the inti thing

there's a purification that goes on in your life as a Christian now however you understand that process whether it's

just the moment you get saved or whether it's the ongoing work of sanctification this purgatorial process this process of

purification continues long after 33 ad or whatever year Jesus dies on the cross so to say oh the work is complete it's

finished and therefore there's no need to purify me of my sin that's outrageously wrong in fact I would even

argue it's satanic and I'd argue that on the basis of scripture because this idea of like trying to get the glory without

the cross is at the heart of the satanic deception we know this in several ways one way we know it is Matthew chapter 16

so you know this remember St Peter gets Jesus as the Christ right and he gets lted he it's called The Rock there's all

this stuff it's really great and then in verse 21 from that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to

Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and on the third day be

raised and Peter you know ring high off of his glory took him aside and began to rebuke him saying God forbid Lord this

shall never happen to you Jesus turns and says to Peter get behind me Satan you are a hindrance to me for you

are not on the S side of God but of men as men we want the glory without the cross St Peter wants that for Jesus and

thinks he's doing him a favor by trying to tell him hey you don't need to worry about that you can get the glory without

the cross this is an ongoing problem we see over and over again in the life of

disciples after uh Peter James and John go up and they see the Transfiguration of Jesus they're coming down Jesus

charges them to tell no one what they had seen until the son of man should have risen from the dead and the three

of them start quietly trying to figure out what this rising from the dead thing meant they just saw Jesus in glory and

then he immediately starts talking about dying and rising from the dead but they don't want to ask him about it they

don't want to hear that bad news so instead they ask him well why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come

but Jesus wants him to talk about it so he says yeah Elijah does come to First restore all things things and then he

asked them and how is it written of the son of man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt like

he won't let them take the glory without the cross won't let them do it and even on Easter Sundays he's walking with two

disciples on the road to Emmas he asks was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter

into his glory so Jesus doesn't get Easter without Good Friday and he won't let us run away from that fact because

we want to skip past that we want to have a cross to proclaim the empty tune and not be faced with the horrors of a

crucifix we want to have the glory without the cross but that's not what we're called

to and it's not just Jesus's cross it's also our cross Jesus did not die on the cross to be our substitute so we didn't

have to have a cross Jesus dies on the cross so we can take up our cross and follow him and this is abundantly clear

from scripture Romans 8 will start there St Paul is saying that we didn't receive the spirit of Slavery to fall back into

fear but we receive the spirit of sunship what does it mean to have the spirit of sunship well he tells us in

the next verses that it means we are children of God and if children then heirs Hees of God and fellow heirs with

Christ and I want to stop the passage there but Paul won't let me he says provided we suffer with him in order

that we may also be glorified with him that is Good Friday and Easter Sunday are not just meant for Jesus Good Friday

and Easter Sunday are also meant for you you need to go through suffering you need to be purified and make it

to Heavenly Easter glory to uh St Timothy St Paul says in second Timothy Chapter 2 take your share

of suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus just says it outright anyone telling you hey you don't need all this

suffering and purification is selling you a demonic lie this is the LIE of Satan that God forbid Lord is not coming

from God and St Paul backs is up with several easy examples no Soldier on service gets

entangled in civilian Pursuit since his aim is to satisfy the one who enlisted him got a higher calling an athlete is

not crowned unless he competes according to the rules so you got to live in a certain way it is a hardworking farmer

who ought to have the first share of the crops so St Paul is making this point that doesn't sound at all like the

Christianity preached by Mike gendan but I'd say it's not just Paul here it's also Jesus Jesus in Matthew 16 in the

passage I already alluded to verse 24 says if any man would come after me let him deny himself and take up his cross

and follow me right like this is how he responds to Peter wanting to have the glory with without the cross that it's

not just that Peter wants Jesus to have the glory without the cross Peter wants Peter to have the glory without the

cross and Jesus says not only do I need the cross for the Salvation of the world but we need the cross as well to be

Disciples of Jesus now Mike gin is free to believe and Protestants are free to believe this

is somehow repugnant to the completed work of Christ but this is scripture Colossians 1 St Paul says in verse 24 I

rejoice in my sufferings for your sake and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's affliction

for the sake of his body that is the church what is lacking isn't something Jesus failed to do what is lacking is

this the body of Christ Ephesians 1 the whole Christ is Christ ahead with the church's body Jesus has gone through all

of that suffering we have been called into it and we need to do our part this is not

anything that he did wrong as the high priest but look like with the high Priestly sacrifice the priest had a

certain role he played but the people for whom the priest was offering had a certain role they played as well so for

instance in some of the food offerings the priest would sacrifice or offer it up and then he and the people might eat

of it or the people's sacrifice might be to bring their best stuff their first fruits their first leans their unspotted

unblemished lamb and so they're offering something which then the priest offers so the priest has a certain role but so

does the Layman and so saying Christ is our high priest does not mean we have nothing to sacrifice it doesn't mean

that at all if you understand the way a sacrificial system kind of works and so all of that's to say we're not promised

immunity from suffering we're promised instead that if we are Sons we'll be disciplined so all of that's to say now

there's different angles you can go with sacrifice suffering and the like but we you can't just say Christ did it all so

I've got nothing to do that's not it at all and so if purgatory is repugnant to your theological system it might be

because your theological system hasn't taken seriously the need for the cross on our way to Heavenly Glory that Romans

8 says we'll only share in the glory of Christ provided we suffer with them finally second Corinthians 1 uh

verse 5 says as we share abundantly in Christ suffering so through Christ we share abundantly in Comfort too there's

this connection you share in the comfort of Christ you share even more than that in the glory of Christ you share in that

Easter Glory if you share in the Good Friday as well there's no escaping it and so this notion of our need to be

purified is it's all right there and then the last thing I say in response to this is the mistake is imagining that

for some reason when I'm purified here on Earth Jesus is doing it but if I'm purified in purgatory I'm doing it not

still Jesus doing it I freely cooperate with it but he by his grace and by his Sovereign power is the one purifying me

I'm the recipient of that purification whether here on Earth or in purgatory so it's a mistake to imagine

that in purgatory we're somehow earning our way to heaven no whether your purgation is here or Hereafter Jesus is

the purifier you are the one being the purified that's one of the weaker arguments I will leave you with maybe

the strongest argument which is the argument from Silent scripture be clear on it hey I agree scripture could be

clearer on a lot of things if you read the Old Testament and say what does hell look like what is Paradise even you know

you've got all these references to gehenna to shaol to you know Paradise what does all

this look like the New Testament is often less clear than I'd like it the Old Testament even more

so and so yeah the argument from Silence is just a reflection of a simple Le fact many times we expect the bible to read

like a theology textbook that it's just going to say propositionally believe this believe that believe the other

thing and it usually doesn't read like that it has stories it has narratives it has genealogies it has all these things

that are making points that often take a lot of reflection or you'll get these little passing glimpses like in a

parable to something about the state of the afterlife so yes could it be clearer

absolutely I don't even disagree with this one but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist

it' be a mistake to say anything uh about the spiritual life or about the afterlife that isn't really clearly

spelled out in scripture isn't real right because even something like what Heavenly Glory looks like there's a lot

of confusion among that amongst Christians what hell looks like you all of that's to say when you actually go

back and drill down and say how often do scripture directly explain this stuff it's a lot less common than you might

imagine but that's not an argument against scripture just as an argument that what we expect the Bible to be is

very different from what the Bible actually is so hopefully you see none of those

four arguments are strong arguments against Purgatory if I've missed anything please in the comments I

believe in you commenters feel free to uh point out some additional arguments I haven't made uh or anything I I might

have missed I there's actually much more that could be said in favor of purgatory but I wanted to give kind of a simple

case because I think it it really comes down to that very first one right now you are not as pure as you need to be to

be in the presence of God and if you think you are you really are not as pure as you need to be to be in the presence

of God and because of that you need to be purified either now or if if you're not done yet you need to be purified

before you go into heaven all the way for Sheamus poy I'm Joe hesar God bless you Happy All Souls day if you're

celebrating that today and and may the souls of the faithful departed through the mercy of God Rest in Peace next week

we'll resume the last two arguments against atheism thank you for listening to Shameless popery a production of the

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