Exploring Heritage Grains: Insights and Practical Tips with Alex

welcome to this session we are here with Alex she was a guest on the podcast a couple of months ago and she

shared some insight into heritage grain some insight into sustainability which I loved that side of the conversation so

if that piece your interest go listen to her episode but I asked Alex if she would come on the summit to talk

specifically and really practically about heritage grains if you're anything like me you maybe have avoided baking

with them because of the fear of the unknown and so Alex is here not to have every single answer on every type of

flower but to let us know and come away with some tools and confidence to branch out beyond just the grocery store white

flower and so Alex I am so excited to have you here thank you just in a couple words I would love to hear like how you

got started with Heritage Grains yeah so I was gluten-free for several years and I that was the only baking that I knew

was gluten-free and it was very minimal very minimal and we have a local mill to me here that specializes in heritage

grains Sunrise Flower Mill a friend of mine and family members had tried it and we're like "No you I think you can I

think you can eat it try it." So after several months of being poked and prodded to try I did and I was able to

handle it so then we allowed our daughter to also try it she has a pretty significant gluten intolerance as well

and she was able to handle it i'm like is this real life so I then bought all the things and dove right in and baking

sourdough baking in particular was something that I was very excited to try and that was what I learned to to bake

sourdough on was Heritage Grains and my baking journey really just took off once I did try this real wheat

that's amazing and you bake beautifully so I felt like because you have only baked with heritage grains and

that's just what you've learned on you are really probably attuned to the nuances and how to how to really work

with them well for those who aren't sure u maybe heritage grains is a newer term to them or they've heard of it but not

really sure what are the core differences between heritage grains and modern grains so heritage grains are

like pre 1950s wheat it wasn't hybridized down for higher yield which modern wheat was during that I think

they called it like the green revolution evolution during the 1950s they really shifted what wheat in America was in

order to feed more people get more of it on the shelves in the grocery stores and that was absolutely a necessity but it

did change quite a bit of the wheat that we now know today it's much different than our grandparents our

great-grandparents and so on used to use and they have that experience with in comparison to again what's typically in

the grocery store on the shelves there so interesting so to be able to produce on a mass scale they had to compromise

change the wheat that we that our ancestors were using yeah and they it's really like that higher yield and more

uniformity you get a bag of from the grocery store and just like a white flower it's going to be the same every

single time because they bred it and changed it and altered it and to be that way

that makes so much sense so maybe we'll get into that but heritage grains are less predictable

because they are not bred for uniformity like you said what about on the nutritional side what makes heritage

grains nutritionally different just them not being hybridized down they're not bred differently they can and I think I

talked about this in the other one the other podcast that we were in but they are sustainable they can last on their

own they have a stronger root system at least for the turkey red and it's able to keep all of its nutrients as it's

being grown because nothing is being put on it and then once it's being processed it may be processed a little bit

differently so there isn't added chemicals there's no when you find like a real heritage wheat there shouldn't be

anything else added to it it should just be turkey hard red or a soft white wheat you really can't find in the grocery

store so it's just the one ingredient on the ingredients list no molted barley rival flavin all those extra things

which does make it act a little differently and we are going that's what I am so excited to learn before we dive

into the really practical I would love to hear your thoughts in your opinion why do you think microbers should care

about heritage grains and consider if they haven't yet using them in their products i for me I think that the

customer loves the story right and you can take a story of you baking this loaf of bread or whatever it may be but if

you could take it all the way back to where it's grown where that wheat is grown where it came from how much more

of a story is that and customers do like to hear that maybe not all of them but there is a large amount that do really

to hear that it brings back that traditional baking which has I don't want to say it's been lost it's just

been altered and so really being able to showcase like hey I am doing this beautiful thing and I'm doing it with

traditional wheat with real wheat something that hasn't been compromised in some eyes and we could I could go all

in about like how to talk with customers about it love in your like what is the most simple way that you do share with

customers if if a customer comes up to me and they say because this happens often "Oh I can't have I can't have

bread." My first question is "Oh are you a celiac?" And if they say "No I just can't have gluten it makes my Okay so

then there's the gluten intolerance aspect." I then will quickly share my story about being gluten-free and then

finding a heritage wheat that I was able to utilize it's easier for us to digest because it hasn't been altered it's just

real again real wheat so having that better digestibility aspect is really great but also being able to say

specifically with the flour that I use I know where it's grown i know where it's milled i know how it gets to my table

and it's super fresh when it comes into my home being able to say those things it is really wonderful and for me

sustainability is a big aspect of it so then if I get some that are really interested in the s sustainability I can

go out into that with the wheat as far as like it being more sustainable just in general that's so good and we dove

into that in your podcast episode do you ever run into customers who are like "Oh this is priced too high i can get bread

from the other sour Yeah bread from the other baker just using grocery store flour for way cheaper." Do you not even

worry about changing their mind or do you have any like little sound bite that you share with them i don't one time

someone asked me if I had a sample because my first thing was that the flavor is different the nutritional

value and the flavor it's more unique they want a sample i don't have a sample those would be expensive samples too

because they are looking at an expensive loaf of bread or something that is just more than what they're used to spending

and so encouraging them to just go out of their realm and try it whether they get it from me or another baker who uses

it in a different product i think that it's important to encourage them to try it and if they're willing to listen to

why I do and why it is a higher price point I'll absolutely spend that time no matter how many people are waiting for

the next thing i think that it's important to educate all of the people that come that are willing to learn i

think that's a big factor in utilizing something that people aren't used to these heritage grains

that are have been not the norm in the recent times there's just a really big education component and so for those who

are dipping their toes in to just be prepared I think you've given some really just brief but practical insights

and then the Sunrise Flower Mill website really educates a lot too so for those of you looking for a deeper dive into

all of the why and the how of what is like the turkey red grain and why is it different that's a good place but let's

go ahead and get tactical now okay I love tactical and talk about actually using these grains so for someone who's

Yes absolutely i want to start bringing this into my business is there a certain grain or flour now we're going to talk

about Sunrise a lot because they are the presenting sponsor they're the flower you use they're the flower I use they're

not the only heritage flour so people may be baking with a local from a local mill just in general what is a grain

that is great to start with for someone getting dipping their toes in i am a big fan of the hard turkey red big turkey

red big big fan of it i think that it is easy if I'm going to try a new recipe that is an easy one to work with it's a

nice starting point if you are used to I think that the like a soft white might be a little bit easier

to use if you're used to some of the other brands but really it's just getting a feel for it no matter which

one you try because each of them are going to be different than what you're used to because there isn't those added

extra added things to make it more uniform but not being afraid of it and just picking one and going with it maybe

you have a local mill to you that that has grown heritage grains and they offer heritage grains give them a call and

grab a bag and just try it and they may have some other ideas as well as to oh yeah try this sort of recipe don't be

afraid to do that to reach out to local small farms small mills because I think it's important no matter how you try it

perfect so for someone who's just getting started using that turkey hard red what are some good kind of beginner

products to start baking would you say just start with a loaf and start playing around experimenting or is there someone

else somewhere else to start i think even if you really wanted to just slowly dip your toes in taking half of what you

typically use and mixing half of the heritage in it's not giving you a heritage loaf but it's at least giving

you a little bit of an idea as to how it may work in your specific environment making a loaf or even like a batch of

cookies and just mixing half and half really up for it i think that it's okay to just start with the flour completely

just doing 100% heritage loaf and monitoring your hydration a lot more than you typically would so starting low

and really feeling how the dough feels and then working your way up to somewhere that you still feel

comfortable and know that it likely will be different than what you are used to but really just not being afraid of the

difference and trying it is going to be the best thing that you could do but also know it is going to be slightly

different and that's okay and you can just adjust however is needed i love that that idea or that advice of using

half of what you're used to and then putting in combining it with half of the new flower to start to understand how

it's going to behave differently that it's less scary to do it that way that totally makes sense are there any grains

that are notoriously more difficult to work with that you say if you're a beginner don't start

here i guess some may say that the turkey red is harder to work with i think that I think that no matter how

which grain you're going to pick it's it's it's going to be different knowing that if you if you are used to a whole

wheat loaf you may not have as much of a difficult time adapting your recipe but if you aren't used to like a whole wheat

loaf you may end up finding that you need a little bit more practice but it's really just about monitoring the dough

and not not feeling some will say "Oh the ego once I try and bake with it." But

really it's just you're learning what it's like to work with real wheat you're not doing anything wrong you're just

learning to adapt to what you're working with yeah that is such good perspective i know like with a whole wheat

especially like a 100% whole wheat loaf it's going to produce just a totally different crumb than something with like

just a plain bread flour and that's one of the things to learn too do you have resources or like pictures where you see

this is what a whole wheat loaf like what a benchmark might look like anything like that

the only thing that comes to mind is Tom's the sourdough journey looking at his guide helpful even when I was

learning that that was helpful even though I am doing like a 100% heritage whole grain loaf I was still able to at

least get an idea as to what I'm looking at and I think that's a great avenue for anyone who's learning or shifting or

adapting their recipe to to look at his at his site but there are a few books vanessa Kimble some of her books I feel

might be a nice resource and there's like the perfect loaf tartine bread those do talk about whole wheat loaves

in there that's perfect yeah and Tom has so many visual like sideby-side photos too so much to learn from his resources

that's so helpful such a good place to start as far as like really when we get hands

on what or how does hydration and maybe even gluten development differ when we're working with a heritage grain so I

just from what I understand and I have tried some modern wheat just to try and help others a little bit better um and

kind of get a feel of what they're feeling so with what I can tell some think that the it's not scientifically

proven but some do think that the heritage grain have a lower gluten content in them now I think that the

gluten may just be a little bit weaker so being gentler when you are handling it it is great my recommendation is

doing a coil fold versus a stretch and fold just because you are a little bit more gentle with it but if you're doing

a stretch and fold and you're not like throwing it halfway across the house I think that's still fine with the

gluten maybe being slightly less i think that being gentler is the best way that you can help your journey in in trying

it that's good to know no and then I think you have said that the hydration levels generally

should be a little bit lower which was different cuz I had originally thought that like a fresher flower tends to be

thirstier but you said it's actually the opposite yeah you can at least up here for me I'm in Minnesota so it's dry in

the winters super humid in the summers i always recommend going lower first getting a feel for your environment how

the dough is going to react to you to your environment and then working your way up there like the the Heritage full

wheat bread blend that we worked on that one can go from like a 72% hydration all the way up to 83 really well just

depending on what you're looking for and so again just starting low getting a feel for it and then working your way up

I think is very easy to attain an idea of what you want does that answer your question

yeah that's perfect i think one of the mistakes that I made especially in the beginning

was expecting that it needed more hydration and going in not starting lower and it was just a lot harder to

work with didn't bake up very well so that is I wonder if that's a common mistake do you know of any other common

mistakes that people can watch out for really just being too rough with the dough being gentler not over not

overworking it yeah yep going back to that low weaker gluten correct structure than what we're maybe used to with a

grocery store bread flour because it wasn't it's not bred for uniformity so it's going to be it's going to be

different and it may need just a little bit gentler of a hands-on yeah okay that's super helpful

so I think even just that the back off on the hydration start a little lower would you say 68 to 70% yeah i would say

I like to say 68 of course if you're like in a significantly dry area or you're higher up elevation you could you

could try closer to 70 72 the go to is oh try it down at 68% and then work your way up perfect and then handle it gently

more gently than you would just your regular bread flour knowing that it's going to act different so not coming

into it with okay this is my recipe i'm going to make the perfect loaf of bread with exactly what I've been doing my

same it's not likely that it will be the result that you're used to and that's okay that's okay so watching it a little

bit closer this is where to the sourdough journeys fermentation guide comes in handy again I think that it's

really important to monitor the temperature of the dough especially while you're figuring out how it's going

to feel and how it's going to work for you and knowing that it's going to likely proof a little bit different i

think that it proofs a little bit quicker just from when I did try some grocery store flour versus using the

heritage grains and then just from the experiences that I have heard from others that I've helped it's been the

kind of consensus that it does proof a little bit faster okay so a little bit faster do you are you open to sharing

just your process like how you don't you can share your recipe if you want to but things like temperature do you keep that

consistent or do you just pay attention to what it is naturally how do you warm do you mix it how many coil folds all of

that i'm happy to to share and I do have on the Sunrise website is the recipe that I created the whole wheat the whole

wheat bread blend with and that one is listed at 72% maybe 73 but it can go upwards to that 83% just depending on

where you are so you can certainly find it on there but for my like normal everyday weather bakery or in home I

like my water in the winter because it's cold here now i like it to be about 90° when I am putting it in so I will filter

out all the water and then I'll pour in like boiling water to kind of get it to that temperature cuz we have city water

so I have to do it a little bit differently but then I will mix the flour the water and the salt in at once

mix it all together i then add in the starter and I try to keep my starter a little bit warm just so it's not like

super cold when I put it in and mix it all and then I just let it sit for about an hour sometimes it's 45 minutes

sometimes it's a little bit longer but about an hour then I come back to it and I begin my coil folds and I typically

will do four sets there are times where I can sneak in another five like especially in the summer i don't know if

it's just that added humidity or what but I sometimes could do five or six but here in the winter it's consistently

four sets and I do those about 25 to 30 minutes apart and then the entire time I'm monitoring my temperature i like the

dough to be pretty warm so 78 to 80 degrees and then I know okay this is about how much I want it to rise this is

going to take about this long which is super helpful for me as I'm still doing things with the kids all day so

monitoring that temperature 78 to 80° when I'm at that about 80° i typically can get the rise I'm looking for in

about 5 hours and I push it about 5 1/2 i don't like it to go any warmer than that it really is too excited and it

does its own thing and then it's you're in the crunch time when you're trying to fix it but or finish it up and once it's

ready then I dump it i shape it all weigh it all out i let it I pre-shape it and let it sit for about 20 minutes then

I do my final shape into the baneton let it sit for about 10 minutes stitch it up and then it goes into the fridge okay

that is that's super helpful so hopefully listeners can hear like it's the process itself is not super

different really you're just really paying attention to the dough to the temperature to the time when you mix it

do you just And your initial mix is it just until it's shaggy and all combined or do you do any additional

strengthening at that point i don't nope it's just shaggy mess i add in the starter is still that shaggy mess

because I do it all by hand so I don't have a mixer but I after it's still just a shaggy mess I

put the lid back on or the towel over it and then let it sit and by the time I come back to it for that first set of

folds it really shifts after that first set pretty dramatically I think and then it just gets nicer and smoother and

easier as it goes on perfect i hope that's for people listening they feel a little bit less intimidated because

while there is a learning curve and while it does behave a little bit differently a little bit of

experimentation and just paying attention to those milestones and using resources like Tom Cakuza's proofing

guide is super super helpful for those who do want to get started are looking for a heritage green flower of course we

love Sunrise they are fantastic they offer just I have never tried a flower that had just a more rich flavor they

were one of my first introductions to heritage flour but just changed everything for me but I want to know if

you have opinions on where they can find heritage grains near them like what to look for and then I'd love to hear if

you mill your hoe your any of your own weeds and if you think it's worth exploring that so in order to if you are

looking for someone closer to you I absolutely think looking at like direct to consumer farms seeing if they have

any or if they know any around them like co-ops local co-ops or even like farmers markets sometimes sunrise started at a

farmer market farmers market so I I think looking in those little avenues and not being afraid to reach out to

your local farmers just asking hey do you happen to know anyone that is doing heritage grains and how can I how can I

reach them because those farmers like to stick together and they will absolutely tell you oh yeah Joe down the road his

mom has actually been doing it for years so don't be afraid to reach out to those in your

community or even the communities surrounding you to try and find to try and find some and as far as milling I do

have my own mill and I do mill the the turkey red berries and I love it i will do that especially just for us i don't

do it necessarily for the bakery at all that is just like us at home but I think that you when you're looking at a

heritage grain and you're getting something that's freshly mil you're getting a higher nutritional value if

you want even more doing it at your home yourself is the best thing that you could do as far as real meat and the

nutritional value you're still maintaining all of that and I highly recommend anyone who doesn't have a milk

to to get one and the flavor is just even that much more you notice that full flavor the texture is slightly different

it's almost like nuttier is how I would describe it and I big fan of whole milled flour as well okay awesome i love

that I'm seeing more and more people starting to mill some of their flour we talked we didn't talk about milling

flour but we talked about marketing about positioning as a a specialty product in your podcast episode so while

we're not going to jump into that on in this conversation I think that's a good kind of next step for people who are

adding this into their bakery thinking about like how to communicate that um and just telling like we said started

off with the storytelling and the strategies for how to describe the bread and connect with your customers that way

and explain why you're different and why it matters yes I love this i think this is probably so encouraging and

empowering we are already going to wrap up here but I would love to hear if you have just one piece of key advice what

would be the very first very top thing that you would tell bakers who want to start exploring heritage grains that

heritage grains they may be intimidating but it's totally worth trying it really brings you back to that kind of slow

living traditional baking and it that has been lost and so bringing it back into your own home whether you do it

just for yourself or for the bakery is wonderful it's a great feeling because you do you feel it in your hands

and then you get to enjoy it and I think not being afraid of that intimidating aspect of it yeah so good so encouraging

empowering i love this so where can people listening find you learn more about you see your gorgeous Instagram

feed um where can they connect with you so Instagram is my main space i'm Linens

and Loaves spelled out on Instagram you can also reach me via email i'm happy to see your message and chat i will see

your message on email quicker than I will through Instagram and then soon hopefully in the next month I will also

have a website and that should be linens.com but until then Instagram email I'm here for it perfect that is

very exciting and your links are probably living right in your speaker profile too so people can click over and

connect with you there alex thank you so much for sharing your resources your information your wisdom i

love talking with you for this has been so great all right friends we will jump on over to the next session thank you

for being here and make sure you get connected to Alex to keep on learning