US Space Command and Militarization of Space: Fact Check Analysis

always unseen and at least 60 miles above us, military operations in space are playing an ever more important role

in today's conflicts, and that very much does include the Iran war. Also growing rapidly are the threats to our everyday

way of life from our enemies, thanks to the myriad of satellites we all now rely on every minute. And all of which is why

we're really pleased to have US General Steven Whiting as our guest today, the commander of US Space Command. Welcome

to the general and the journalist. I'm Tom >> and I'm Patrick. Steve, it's very good

to see you. Welcome to the general and the journalist. >> Well, thank you Patrick and thank you

Tom. I appreciate the invitation and look forward to uh talking with you this morning, my time, afternoon, your time.

>> So, uh Steve, much of our conversation is going to consider space as a as a warfighting domain. But but I wanted to

begin with a bit of light before we get into the shade and just reflect on what the 2 mission represents. I mean it is

an absolutely astounding achievement that take that's taken humans of course further from the earth they've ever been

and joyously back to the moon for the first time in 50 years. So rather than talking about the shade if you were

going to take an optimistic view of mankind's relationship with space what does it offer and what did the 2 mission

mean to you personally and professionally? Patrick, I'm so glad you started with this question because I

believe we are on the precipice of just an amazing new space age and and Artemis is really reflecting that that humans

are now going back to the moon and I believe we're going to see a permanent uh lunar um installation that will that

will be there for exploration and perhaps commercial uh reasons as well. And then we're going to move off into

the solar system uh going to Mars, going to uh the asteroids. Um and and I just think about my young grandson. and he's

only 2 years old. What he is going to see in his lifetime, humans living, working, uh using uh the the resources

of space for economic expansion here on planet Earth. And I think that's an incredibly exciting future. We just got

to protect that future and make sure that it comes to fruition. >> General, US General, I should be clear,

>> how soon how soon will we have a lunar station? >> I think we could see that within the

next uh five years. You know, there's there's a a human paradox that we sometimes overestimate the amount of

change in the short term and we underestimate it in the long term. So, I think the world 10 20 years from now is

going to look extraordinarily different because of how we're leveraging space and and moving out into space. And I

think we could really start to see that in the next 5 years. It's extraordinary because because when I was growing up,

you know, we assumed that that everything that was achieved by the Apollo missions would just continue and

that we would see man flight to Mars in in uh in in our lifetime and we've had this pause. How much of that background

uh influenced you in coming into your you know taking up the roles you've done and always being associated with space

and and then what does a day what does a day is the command of US space command look like?

>> Yeah, I've always been a a space nerd. We say I like to upgrade that language and say space hero. Uh you know from a

young age I was just inspired by uh the Apollo missions. I was alive when Neil Armstrong walked out on the lunar

surface but too young to remember it. But I do remember at some point probably around 1972 laying in the back of my uh

parents' car before we you know strap kids into seats and and belts and everything and and my dad pointing up

and saying there are men on the moon right now and uh that was just an impactful moment and and so all

throughout my career I've wanted to be involved in space and I've had that opportunity throughout my military

career and now I just have the incredible good fortune and privilege to serve as the United States combatant

commander for space which means I'm responsible for US military operations uh in the space uh AO as we call it the

area of responsibility and uh that has has just fundamentally transformed over the last decade because the threats we

now see in space where we've seen China and Russia build a a suite of operational uh space weapons to hold at

risk United States and allied space capabilities. And Patrick, you may recall in your military career, we used

to have exercises where we would be thinking about a contested space domain and we had to give the Red Force a whole

bunch of future capabilities so that they could fight us. We don't have to give them future capabilities. Those

exist today in the domain. And so at US Space Command, we have to think about how do we protect United State United

States interests in space relative to those threats. General, for a a little bit of a space ignoramist like me,

although someone absolutely fascinated by it, could we just take a step back a bit and can I ask you what might be a

silly question? Who owns space and why does it matter so much in modern warfare?

>> Well, the answer is nobody owns space and in fact the outer space treaty which uh almost every nation around the world

is a signatory to certainly all the major space powers actually says there cannot be claims of sovereignty in

space. So, so that will be very different than the you know the the the days of sale and exploration when a

explorer would land on a continent and plant the flag for king, queen and country. Um and so um the you know there

is this global commons aspect uh to space uh where we all need to act professionally. We need to have due

regard for others and certainly at US space command we care deeply about that. And in fact you might be interested to

know that each and every day we screen every active satellite from anybody around the world whether that's United

States, Europe, China, Russia, Japan and we provide predictions to those uh satellite owners of whether their

satellites are might uh have a collision with a piece of debris because we don't want to pollute space with additional

debris. So you know we we want to be a responsible actor. We believe we are and we need others to be responsible actors

also. >> And of course that's now many thousands of of satellites up there. Now you said

yours was a combatant command. What would a war in space actually look like? >> Yeah, we often talk about modern

warfare. Um likely the next, you know, big war could be a war that starts in space or certainly extends into space.

But I think um other countries have certainly watched the United States and our closest allies and seen how we fight

and everything we do now is undergurtded by space capabilities and those countries likely will want to neutralize

uh those space capabilities to take away what they perceive to be an incredible advantage. You know, if you think back

to how the armed forces fought in World War II, uh there were individual bomber raids, uh often being flown out of the

United Kingdom, whether that was the Royal Air Force or the United States Army Air Forces with hundreds of

bombers. In fact, the historical record reflects there were bomber raids that had over a thousand bombers. Today, we

would execute that operation with probably seven bombers. Instead of 10 to 15,000 airmen at risk, we would have

probably under 20 airmen at risk. And all of that's enabled by space. Space tells us what the adversary is doing at

the at the target location. It tells us what the weather is. It allows us to drop independently targetable weapons

that give us high confidence that we can uh take out those uh targets. And so we don't have the force structure to fight

the way we did in World War II. And so we've got to defend our space capabilities against these attempts that

we will likely see to neutralize them. So just um you you you you started talking about um how in the past we

would need to red team or give our adversaries in these red teaming this wargaming additional capabilities that's

no longer the case. So when you look at the most um capable adversaries or opponents that you have to operate

against which are the ones that concern you most you know who are the biggest threats to the United States and her

allies in space? >> Yeah it's uh clearly that list would start with the People's Republic of

China. China, you know, has moved uh breathtakingly fast in space in really three different ways. Number one, they

have built out this suite of counterpace weapons to hold at risk United States and allied space capabilities. And

that's everything from uh non-kinetic reversible capabilities like cyber attack weapons, satellite

communications, and GPS jammers. But it's also things like uh high energy uh or pardon me directed energy uh weapons,

direct descent ASAT rockets as well as what we call co-orbital uh anti-satellite weapons that would be on

orbit. Um and and they've done that very fast. Secondly, they have watched how we have used space to make our conventional

forces uh more effective and they have done the exact same thing with the people's liberation army, navy, air

force, marine corps, and rocket forces making them more precise, lethal and far-ranging. And then finally, uh they

have developed a space-based targeting system to find, fix, track and target um US and allied conventional forces that

are trying to maneuver u around the Indo-acific area. And then the second country on that list would be Russia.

You know, Russia remains uh a very historic and sophisticated space power. Uh yes, they have been hurt by economic

sanctions, but they continue to invest in counterpace weapons with the most concerning reports being that they are

potentially thinking about placing on orbit a nuclear ASAT weapon that would violate the outer space treaty that

they're a party to and uh it would hold at risk every everyone's satellites in low Earth orbit. and uh that that would

be a outcome that we just couldn't tolerate. >> I mean if if the worst happened and

there was a nuclear detonation in space what would the impact be? >> Yeah, you know depending on the size of

that detonation and where it happened we could expect that uh likely immediately uh within the first several hours to

days probably one-third of all satellites in lower earth orbit and that's that's an altitude of about um

100 miles up up to probably about 1,200 miles. Uh that's where um the International Space Station is. So it

would put at risk those astronauts. It's where the Chinese space station is, those uh taken. Um and then over the

next several months, the remaining twothirds of satellites in lower Earth orbit would would degrade and likely

fail due to the uh increased radiation that would be there due to that nuclear uh weapon exploding on orbit. So all of

low Earth orbit would be at risk. And you know that's over 10,000 satellites today with these new proliferated low

earth orbit constellations like Starlink >> and and the impact on daily life on Earth.

>> Yeah, thank you for that question, Patrick. You know, the the average citizen around the world uh probably

doesn't think about how space enables their life every day, but if they carry a smartphone in their in their pocket,

uh they are leveraging space multiple times a day. Whether that's the GPS signal just to to get to where they're

going or to summon the the Uber to their location or the autonomous vehicle that is driving them somewhere, but it's also

uh the GPS signal that synchronizes global stock markets. It synchronizes uh global point of sale purchase locations

where you can tap or swipe that credit card to make a a purchase. Um, it's the convenience of being now anywhere on the

planet and being able to get broadband uh internet, whether that's 40,000 feet in the air over the Atlantic streaming

Netflix because you have access to Starlink or you're on an oil rig in an austere location or you're somewhere in

Africa and now you can get educational opportunities or commercial opportunities because of of this

high-speed broadband. And so we don't want to lose all of that and go back to a pre-space age style of living that

we've just advanced beyond at this point. >> So So what is it that would motivate um

the Russians or the Chinese to to undertake this sort of uh hostile activity in space because it's going to

affect them potentially as much as it does everybody else. I mean is there are there any arms control equivalent

agreements that that moderate that condition behavior in space? Yeah, the principal uh international treaty that

that affects space is the outer space treaty and it clearly says no uh party nation can put a or will put a weapon of

nu weapon of mass destruction or a nuclear weapon on orbit. That's very clear and so that's why these reports

that Russia is reportedly uh planning to do so or designing a capability to do so are so concerning. Uh but I think from a

Russian perspective, they look at the United States, they look at NATO, and they they see a conventional overmatch

there uh of conventional arms and and they believe that novel ways of of trying to undermine the United States

and NATO, such as by neutralizing our space capabilities or leveraging Russian cyber or nuclear capabilities, helps

them to to level the the battlefield, if you will. General, you talk about reports of Russia attempting to put a

nuclear weapon up in space, and I suspect that's you being a little bit diplomatic because if anyone would know

if they're actually doing it, it may well be you. Have you seen hard evidence of this or any intelligence?

>> Well, I would go back to those initial reports um and and just, you know, those were from uh sources that uh that that

people um you know, across the the world who uh who are watch this very carefully uh were referenced to. So, I won't speak

about our intelligence sources and methods, but obviously it's a report that we're very concerned about.

>> Okay. I I think I think it's probably far enough. Russia, however, have been up some fairly nefarious activities in

space. Certainly, there's been some pretty incredible reporting over the last few months of trying to disrupt

satellites, change their trajectories, that sort of thing. Are you seeing evidence of that?

>> Yeah, clearly across Europe, um, we have seen sustained satellite communication jamming and GPS jamming. And the pro the

real, you know, uh, problem w with that GPS jamming, for example, is it's being done in a way that's affecting civil

aviation in Eastern Europe and, uh, across southern Europe. And so, you know, when when we put at risk uh

civilian airliners, uh, you know, full of uh just citizens trying to to go on business or holiday, uh, you know,

that's incredibly problematic and and we do not want to see this normalization of uh trying to interfere with other

satellites. >> And this is Ukraine presumably, is it to try and disrupt operations to help

Ukraine? >> Correct. >> General, we must ask you about the

conflict in Iran. What role has space command played in it so far as you're obviously at liberty to tell us?

>> You know, as I noted earlier, every operation and action that our US joint force takes now is undergurtded by space

capabilities. And our chairman of the joint chiefs, uh, General Kaine, as well as our secretary of war, Secretary

Hegsth, have talked about the role uh of US Space Command. You know, we we we support the rest of the joint force with

critical capabilities like missile warning. any missile launched anywhere around the world, we detect that in real

time and provide that information up to our national leadership, but also out to our fielded forces to help protect them.

We're supporting uh operations with satellite communications, uh GPS, weather, intelligence, all of those kind

of things we've historically done. But then as General Kaine uh has noted, we've also provided uh overwatch for

operations uh in the Middle East and uh and helped to ensure that uh that our adversaries uh cannot use space

capabilities to hold at risk uh US forces. President Trump said just this week that Space Force, as you described

it, has been watching Iran's enriched uranium fire satellite, and the president said that it's still precisely

where it was deep underground when the B2s tried to bomb it last year. In other words, you've had eyes on all the time.

Is that correct? >> I'm not going to speak to the specifics of uh operational intelligence regarding

Iran. I will just say we have the world's most capable space-based ISR architecture, and obviously we maintain

a close watch on threats around the world. >> So, I think you got your answer there,

Tom. >> Yeah, the one I expected, but I'm I'm I'm grateful for the general answering

around it. >> You've you've got to Yeah, you've always got to ask. Um, so I mean just looking

to the future, what is the most stressing scenario that you consider? What would be a really bad day at the

office for you as the commander of US Space Command? >> Yeah, Patrick, the most stressing

scenario would be um an unwared attack by an undeterred adversary. And uh here at US Space Command, we've developed

what we call our elements of victory. What we need to be successful in a space conflict. And by the way, a space

conflict is not inevitable. And so our goal each and every day is to wake up and to deter that from happening so that

mankind can continue to take advantage of all the benefits of space like we talked about at the beginning of the

podcast when we talked about this incredible future um that is ahead of us. But uh but if we were to have an

undeterred adversary to uh attack us in space, sometime that's been sometimes that's been referred to here in the US

as a quote Pearl Harbor in space, we have to have the resiliency to be able to operate through that and to continue

to support the joint force even as as we seamlessly and quickly transition from crisis into conflict. I mean I'm I'm

fascinated by how you think about deterrence in space because it's a you know it's a concept that that I find

difficult to fit into that domain and very simplistically I think about it as through deterrence through denial

deterrence through resilience or deterrence through deterrence through punishment does that framing work in in

the space domain as well >> to be frank like in the cyber domain where you put up with a certain level of

uh low-level engagement each and every day and I know you're familiar with from your your you know previous roles. Um

certainly in space um there's a level of interference that uh that we have to deal with each and every day. But we

want to clearly communicate that you know we we we are not going to put up with uh somebody preventing us from

using our space capabilities uh for the uh defense of our of our national interest. And then how do we demonstrate

that after we've communicated it is just as you said we have to have the resiliency to demonstrate that we will

deny an adversary the benefit of why they attacked us and then we have to have our own capabilities that can

impose costs uh back on an adversary and they have to know that if they were to attack us

>> and you've you've said many times um and I think uh your predecessors have said it as well that that space is a is a

team sport. Um, now the the team that that I'm not most familiar with is is Operation Olympic Defender, which of

course includes is the Five Eyes plus France and Germany, but there are three European nations, three NATO members as

part of that. I mean, I don't think it's a state secret that there's a certain amount of strain of tension uh uh

transatlantic tension at the moment. I'm I'm not going to ask you a political question, but but how important are

these relationships to US space command? And what would the consequences be to us, but also to you if you were to if we

could no longer rely on each other in that sort of team spirit way? >> Well, Patrick, you you use the line I I

do like to use that space is a team sport. And I think uh when we work together, when we all bring our

capabilities to bear, burden sharing, if you will, I think we're stronger and better together. I do have the the

privilege of being the commander of multinational force operation Olympic defender. So I get to work with UK space

command under the leadership of Major General Paul Tedman each and every day as well as the space command and

commanders from the other countries uh that you noted. Just over the last 18 months, we've uh we've demonstrated

three different onorbit operations where we actually have maneuvered our satellites with each other other

demonstrating that interoperability and uh and we've just completed uh a space domain awareness uh operation as well

which has improved our ability to operate together. So so we are u you know full steam ahead on continuing to

grow these partnerships with our most capable space allies. and you've very neatly ducked part of the question I

asked, but if if you were to lose, and I know it brings certain advantages to the United States, not least geography. Um,

how much of a blow would that be if if if that relationship was to break down? You know, I just look at the positives

of where we are. Certainly with the UK, we have uh shared facilities in the UK. Here in the US, there are uh British

personnel that work right alongside of our personnel. And in fact, there are operations centers here in the US that

are some of our most critical locations. And you walk onto that operations floor at the highest classification level. And

it might be a British flight lieutenant or a British uh sergeant who is uh you know, running the show that day right

aligned with their American uh Australian Canadian colleagues. And you know, we've been doing that for decades.

And I don't have any reason to think we won't continue doing that as we move forward. General, if you don't mind, an

ever so slightly paro question from us on this side of the Atlantic pond. Uh the US spends what 4% of your entire

defense budget, which is vast on space. That could well almost double if President Trump's plans get through

Congress. Germany, France spend around 4% as well of their defense budgets. Britain, we spend less than 1%.

Are we doing enough? >> Yeah. From my perspective, a modern military is going to have to increase

its investments in space giving given the threats that are now arrayed against us. You know, if you're going to have a

capable army, a capable navy, a capable air force, they are not going to be able to operate unless you can deliver and

defend uh space capabilities, space services to those forces. And certainly in the US, we have recognized that that

will require additional investment. And in fact, the chief of space operations for the United States Space Force uses

an analogy that it's like taking your uh merchant marine and trying to convert it into a real navy. And that's the that's

the the journey that we're on. And you know, I won't pretend to try to tell the um the treasury of the u the British

government how much money to spend on uh what parts of its defense. >> Well, we wouldn't mind if you did, and

you certainly have that opportunity here. Yeah, I'll just say I think it's going to require more and additional

investment uh if you're going to maintain a capable armed forces in in this world in which we find ourselves.

>> Yeah. I mean, talk about burden sharing. I looked up those figures preparing to talk to you and I was stunned by how

small a part of that burden we're sharing. But anyway, that my words, not yours, General. Let me just ask you

finally, how confident are you that we will avoid an active shooting war in space? be it

MIG machine guns strapped to satellites which I've read the Russians have tried to do or that awful scenario that you

painted of the Russians porting then exploding a nuclear device in space. >> Yeah, I I am hopeful but as Patrick

certainly is aware, you know, we don't we don't create our defense strategies based on hope and we do it based against

the capabilities of others. And so we are prepared and postured that uh that if somebody were to decide that they do

want to take action uh in space then then we are going to be the strongest and we're going to win.

>> General uh I I mean that's that was so fascinating. Um every single answer you gave I would like to ask you 15 more

questions about but we are almost certainly out of time >> and for my part thank you for looking

after uh Teders so well over all these years Steve I'm really grateful. >> Yeah he's a great teammate for us and

I've enjoyed my time serving with him. Yeah, >> thank you and thanks so much for your

time and thank you for ser for your service. >> Thank you, General. Much appreciated.

>> All right, thank you gentlemen. >> Well, Patrick, what an absolutely fascinating conversation that was. I

was, I have to admit, completely blown away by just how much is going on up there. So far above us that I had

absolutely no idea what was what was really going on. What's your biggest takeaway from that conversation with

General Whiting? >> Oh, I've got a few, Tom. I mean, the first of all, what what a privilege it

was to speak to the commander of US Space Command. I mean, Steve is I mean, there cannot be anybody on the planet

who exercises more power in space than than that man. So, what a privilege to have him on the podcast.

>> I thought he was um I thought he was very cleareyed uh about the emerging threat. I mean, I grew up in this era

where we assumed that the US had hegman, if you like, over over space. They had total dominance. And what's very clear

is just how fast China in particular have come and the threat that they pose. I also was struck by how much he talked

about teamwork and allies. And you get this from a lot of United States senior commanders and it's because they believe

it and they mean it. And and I think it's it's sincere. you know, it's not a I think I don't think it's a state

secret that that we do bring capabilities, particularly geography that enable the US to operate in space

uh with a freedom that they would be more restrictive. But we also need to be completely honest about the dependence

that we have on the United States. And you know, as we we speak about what we would lose if there was a breach in the

NATO alliance, if there was a rupture, I mean, more than any other domain, the space domain is where the US offer us an

immense amount of capability. Um, and uh and we really benefit from it. But my biggest takeaway, and I reckon this is

probably yours too, is is the optimism, you know, this the sense of excitement excitement in what what the space domain

offers. I mean what what about you Tom? >> I have to say I was also struck by what he said about the allied relationship

and he's a highly diplomatic modern American for our general. So he's not going to take a metaphorical great dump

on the United Kingdom. But he absolutely did make it very clear he would like us to spend as a government as a country a

lot more on defense than the poultry what is it less than 1% of our defense budget we're spending now. Uh that was

moderately undiplomatic but you can't fault him for saying that. I have to say the most stark thing was that idea of

that Russian nuclear device that he said and he he couched it, didn't he, carefully as reports that Russia was

trying to put a nuclear device in space to create merry hell with the satellite system. And that's quite scary, isn't

it? >> I think it's very scary. Um, for all the reasons that he described, you know, the

impact on all of the low earth orbit constellations, the impact on our daily daily lives, you know, not just, you

know, wartime impacts, but but peaceime impacts. Um, it's it's a very very sobering thought and it characterizes

the almost reckless nature of of Russian behavior. Um, when you consider what that would do

globally >> and yet at the same time he does have quite a bit of optimism for the future.

>> Yes, I was struck by that too. you could sense his enthusiasm and when when we started with a question about Artemis

and looking at the the positives that uh the space domain offers hum you know mankind

um and and I shared that too. I I think I I got a real dose a real sort of sense of an uplift because you can see that

notwithstanding the absolutely vital efforts that he and his command go through every day to

deter malign activity in space. It's the it's the future that space offers. You know,

man space flight to Mars uh basing on the moon within what five years. It's you know it's hard not to be excited by

that. >> Yeah. a permanent base on the moon in 5 years time was petitioned but it was the

excitement to he talked about the incredible advent of this new opportunity uh this dawn of a new age

and it and it really does sort of I wasn't alive in the late60s but it really does take you back to those this

early excitement in the late 60s the 70s of space exploration all over again doesn't it

>> and I'm a I'm like him I'm a proper geek I get very very excited by by the moon landings and and the Apollo missions um

there's a brilliant podcast uh you can find on BBC Sounds called 30 Minutes to the Moon um which dissects the those

last minutes and it's it's just you you you marvel at what it was that they achieved in in the 60s um after

President Kennedy's speech at Rice University. >> Well, Patrick, your space geekness is a

secret safe with me. Well, there we must end it for this week, but as always, please keep your questions coming and

your comments. Email them to us at general andjournalistthe times.co.uk. general and journalist atthe

times.co.uk. >> And please follow us wherever you get your podcasts. And if it's a nice one,

please leave us a review because it'll help skewer the algorithms >> or boost them. Or maybe we could get

Space Command to help us. Patrick, until next week. Thank you. >> Thanks, Tom.